Dog aggression

[Root Beer]

Should there be some sort of CGC type of class the dogs must take to participate in agility events ? Can we weed out those types of dogs with such a requirement ?

 

I see two problems with this.

 

1. There are dogs who are perfectly good dogs who can't pass that type of test for one reason or another. For instance, if he took it now, Dean would fail due to the part of the test where a noise is made. Should he be banned from Agility events because he has issues with a clipboard being slammed on the ground? He's not aggressive or reactive and he is perfectly appropriate, even with dogs who get in his space. (Not taking this personally - just providing a real life example)

 

I know many dogs who whine during supervised separation. Should they be banned from Agility because they whine when their person goes into the bathroom?

 

These sorts of issues - noise sensitivity, discomfort when left with a stranger, etc. are things that many owners manage just fine.

 

You would end up restricting a lot of dogs who don't really deserve to be restricted.

 

2. I doubt the sanctioning organizations would allow this. You would have to get permission from the organization, anyway.

 

I will say that a club that had such a requirement would not get my entry fees. My dogs aren't aggressive, they aren't going to hurt anyone's dogs. I am responsible. And my money is good. And that's a hoop I'm not going to jump through to compete in a particular club's trial when there are plenty of other clubs to compete with who don't have such a requirement.

 

I'm not saying that to be snotty - just honest.

[IPSY]

I see two problems with this.

 

1. There are dogs who are perfectly good dogs who can't pass that type of test for one reason or another. For instance, if he took it now, Dean would fail due to the part of the test where a noise is made. Should he be banned from Agility events because he has issues with a clipboard being slammed on the ground? He's not aggressive or reactive and he is perfectly appropriate, even with dogs who get in his space. (Not taking this personally - just providing a real life example)

 

I know many dogs who whine during supervised separation. Should they be banned from Agility because they whine when their person goes into the bathroom?

 

These sorts of issues - noise sensitivity, discomfort when left with a stranger, etc. are things that many owners manage just fine.

 

You would end up restricting a lot of dogs who don't really deserve to be restricted.

 

2. I doubt the sanctioning organizations would allow this. You would have to get permission from the organization, anyway.

 

I will say that a club that had such a requirement would not get my entry fees. My dogs aren't aggressive, they aren't going to hurt anyone's dogs. I am responsible. And my money is good. And that's a hoop I'm not going to jump through to compete in a particular club's trial when there are plenty of other clubs to compete with who don't have such a requirement.

 

I'm not saying that to be snotty - just honest.

 

I understand your point very well Root Beer , I just hope something can be done so unfortunate and preventable accidents like the many that have happened just this year dont happen again.

I suggested CGC because that was the only one I could think of. Maybe there should be a agression test or something.

I can completely agree with you about certain things my dog is sensitive to like yours. My dog will curl her lip if a dog gets too close to her , she will do this to the puppies too but will never do anything else but that. She just makes it clear that she is here to play agility with her mom and thats it. She's all business. But if a dog went at her , she would roll into submission or run like hell back to the tent/truck , whichever is closest , or if Im right there , she will practically jump into my arms. i dont think she should be banned , but its either all or nothing . Theres no real way to root out the real dangerous ones because the signals are so similiar to the ones that arent dangerous.

It comes down to competitors owning up to the fact that if their dog is deemed dangerous , it shouldnt be playing agility with others.

[Maralynn]

I think the real cure for your dilemma is responsible owners who are honest with themselves about their dog. That's probably just a pipe dream though.

 

A good owner can take a reactive dog and train and manage it so it does not cause an issue to other owners. A bad owner can take a normal dog and allow it to be a PITA and cause issues for others. I know I can manage my reactive dog just fine and I could guarantee he would not cause an issue for someone else. But I'm also honest with myself about what type of situations he can handle and what situations would be too much for him.

[mum24dog]

I see two problems with this.

 

1. There are dogs who are perfectly good dogs who can't pass that type of test for one reason or another.

 

And there are dogs that could pass such a test and still be a potential danger.

 

This is very topical for us in the UK. As I said, our KC is keen to be seen to be "doing something" and has issued a discusion document including a requirement for dogs to gain their Silver GC award before competing.

We do have a say of sorts and the document has been put out in a provocative and OTT form to stir up discussion.

It is up to us to come up with a viable alternative that suits us less badly and that can actually work.

I know noone who thinks the GC tests are at all relevant to agility show conditions. I don't know what your tests cover but suspect they are similar to ours and aimed at everyday life.

I had a dog that got his Gold Award but it didn't improve his general obedience one bit, so I'm not convincced of their use at all beyond giving beginner owners training targets to aim for.

Any training needs to be done in the context it is needed, not in isolation.

 

Pam

[IPSY]

I think you might just end up weeding out perfectly good dogs from your trials. I know that after all my time and expense training for agility, I'm not interested in yet another CGC class. I just won't go to those trials requiring such criteria. You have to remember, that when participating in any event where there are dozens of strange dogs present, there is always going to be a risk. Dogs that perform perfectly well at CGC class could lose it over one particular dog that gave them the stink eye! And for those dogs that attack and hurt other dogs, there is always the first time, and it may be at your trial, completely unexpected by the handler. I still think the best way to mitigate risk is management. Dogs not running should be created or in xpens, or in the car, weather permitting. The next dog up is staged with it's handler, and the handler can be aware of the running dog going off course aiming at them and deal with it. IF a dog demonstrates uncontrollable aggression, you can then ask that they leave and not participate in (your) future trials. Honeslty, I think that's the best you're going to get.

 

Im agreeing with everything you have said here Brad.

The one thing that really bothers me is I know some aggressive dogs in agility , but Im not personally going to report them. What I do want to know is who's responsibility would it be to report such a dog and who would you report it too ? The dog has had issues at training before and the trainer has just recently told the owner that private lessons would be best. Now , would you think morally this was the way to go as to not open any cans of worms with 'rights' issues ? I think the owner should have been told point blank that your dog is a danger to everyone else and it would be best not to show the dog . There are different points of view to this but basically I just dont want a tragedy at our next event. Im not talking about dogs who "might" attack , Im talking about "when" these dogs attack. It's only a matter of time before it happens .

[IPSY]

I think the real cure for your dilemma is responsible owners who are honest with themselves about their dog. That's probably just a pipe dream though.

 

A good owner can take a reactive dog and train and manage it so it does not cause an issue to other owners. A bad owner can take a normal dog and allow it to be a PITA and cause issues for others. I know I can manage my reactive dog just fine and I could guarantee he would not cause an issue for someone else. But I'm also honest with myself about what type of situations he can handle and what situations would be too much for him.

 

If all owners thought like you , we wouldnt have this problem at all .

[Brad]

but Im not personally going to report them.

If I was aware of a dog that was likely to attack and injure another dog at a trial I'm attending, I would report it to the hosts and/or judge. I'm not one to avoid cans of worms. Personally, I have no problem stepping in front of a charging dog...BUT, many of the people I see at trials are older women that are just there as a hobby/social gathering, and would be completely unprepared to deal with a surprise attack. I feel it's everyone's business to protect the group and event from danger, and I'd rather hurt someone's feelings/pride/whatever, than to see somebody have their dog hurt or killed, just to avoid the can of worms. Reporting it isn't malicious, it's just being responsible.

[IPSY]

When you're right you're right. I need to think about this for a while before I do bring it to someones attention. I hate to be the one to do it though. But like I said , I dont want to see someones beloved dog possibly get attacked.

I think I was hoping someone would say it was the trainers responsibility to report it to the club .

Maybe this will be the beginning of something good . Hopefully others will do the same . But like you said , some people attend these events to socialize and are weekend warriors, and to become great gossip material for them is not my cup of tea. The only thing I really dont want happening is people making false claims against others just to be malicious. Put a bunch of women together and a few MAD apples and look out ! There's just no easy way ..

[Rave]

The short answer is it's not up to the club. You know that waiver you sign with each entry? It releases any liability of the club and the trial site. The owner of the dog is responsible for that dog's actions regardless if they're at an agility trial or walking down the street. The agility org. has rules in place to ban truly aggressive dogs, if the incidents are reported. Any attempts to prohibit entries based on some criteria would probably be met with resistance. The sanctioning org. should be the one weeding out the problems, not the club. If you don't like their procedures, then perhaps open a dialogue with them.

 

I've witnessed and heard of plenty of aggressive incidents, from reactive dogs who should've been handled better to dogs leaving a ring to go attack another dog. Owners of any dog who might leave and go attack should not be competing at all in my opinion. Many times the owners don't think it's a problem, or think they can control it or that that little bit of snow fencing will somehow contain their dog. The friends and instructors of these owners should really step up and clue the clueless in.

 

There are plenty of people who have absolute control over their dogs with issues and will never have an incident because they do such an awesome job of controlling their dog AND warning others. If you own a reactive dog who you have in close quarters, you damn well better warn people that your dog needs space if other dogs have to walk by in close proximity. I trialled a reactive dog, I know. It is possible to manage, but it does require constant management and COMMUNICATION to your fellow competitors when necessary. Whenever I needed to walk Zoe through an area, I'd let people know and ask for a path. I'd also hang out in corners or way out of the way. I am 100% responsible 100% of the time for making sure Zoe never feels a need to react to another dog just like everyone else is 100% responsible for their dog's actions 100% of the time. I really can't stand when people don't take responsibility for their dog's actions.

[IPSY]

Rave ,

 

I agree that we should step up and clu in the clueless , but when a person has a egotistical manner and a " I have every right to trial my dog" attitude , it's a losing battle. Like I said before , I switched my class to avoid my dogs being around this dog. To protect my dogs in the future I will have to know exactly where this dog is at all times , that is if nothing is done about this dog attending the trials. There are more then just this one dog too, but you got to start somewhere.

[Olivia]

"I am 100% responsible 100% of the time for making sure Zoe never feels a need to react to another dog just like everyone else is 100% responsible for their dog's actions 100% of the time." - Rave

 

Hear hear!!! That is the crux of the matter!

 

You can't make rules to teach people common sense.

 

If you (IPSY) truly feel that a dog is aggressive and dangerous then it is your duty to report that dog. Waiting around hoping someone else will do it only allows that dog to continue showing. Don't just stand around complaining, try to do something about the troublemaker, not ban a huge class of dogs with unfair rules. You say you were hoping the 'trainer' would report it. What trainer? Not all people have trainers.

 

I personally can't see the USDAA, NADAC, or AKC agreeing to allow a club to force everyone entering the club to pass a CGC-esque test. My dogs are all CGC certified but I would never give my money to that club.

 

Olivia

[Rave]

Unfortunately there are people like that out there and you do have to watch out for them at all times. I've seen people try to get a club to prohibit entry to a certain known-aggressive dog, and that backfired and made the person more determined to go show her dog there.

[IPSY]

"I am 100% responsible 100% of the time for making sure Zoe never feels a need to react to another dog just like everyone else is 100% responsible for their dog's actions 100% of the time." - Rave

 

Hear hear!!! That is the crux of the matter!

 

You can't make rules to teach people common sense.

 

If you (IPSY) truly feel that a dog is aggressive and dangerous then it is your duty to report that dog. Waiting around hoping someone else will do it only allows that dog to continue showing. Don't just stand around complaining, try to do something about the troublemaker, not ban a huge class of dogs with unfair rules. You say you were hoping the 'trainer' would report it. What trainer? Not all people have trainers.

 

I personally can't see the USDAA, NADAC, or AKC agreeing to allow a club to force everyone entering the club to pass a CGC-esque test. My dogs are all CGC certified but I would never give my money to that club.

 

Olivia

 

I do see your point. The trainer I wass referring to was one of the trainers we use at a club , also deemed the dog dangerous in class and suggested to the owner to take private lessons. ( I mentioned this in a previous post) Now , in my opinion that doesnt help matters much , because it doesnt stop her from showing. BUT , whether or not something else was said between the trainer and the owner at some other time after that , I do not know. But hopefully the owner will get the point and not trial the dog.

That was the trainer I was talking about, Olivia.

[IPSY]

Unfortunately there are people like that out there and you do have to watch out for them at all times. I've seen people try to get a club to prohibit entry to a certain known-aggressive dog, and that backfired and made the person more determined to go show her dog there.

 

That's exactly what Im afraid of, Rave. Once you open that can of worms , it can be a long road.

I always liked this phrase , " The road to hell is paved with good intentions" .

[IPSY]

Wow ,after all this I find myself not looking forward to trialing again. I thought once I get some health issues staightened out , trialing was going to be a blast. But now , Im not so sure. Can I still say " I cant wait till next season ?" I dont know. Then again , there is always Schutzhund with the hubby . Maybe I'll try Ring sport

[mum24dog]

Wow ,after all this I find myself not looking forward to trialing again. I thought once I get some health issues staightened out , trialing was going to be a blast. But now , Im not so sure. Can I still say " I cant wait till next season ?" I dont know.

 

That's the danger of discussions on the net - they often focus on the bad and ignore the majority which I'm sure cause no problems at all. They give a false impression of the scale of the problem.

Go for it. If you look for the negatives that's all you'll see.

No activity that involves a lot of people is ever going to be perfect.

 

Pam

[Blackdawgs]

It sounds like there is a problem with just one dog. For a long time, I was in a class with a beast of less than stellar disposition. The owner was in denial and the instructor was less than helpful. It got to the point, where I refused to work my dog unless Mr Nasty was secured on leash or in a crate. At trials, Mr Nasty was at the same jump height as my dog. If I happened to be next in line, I simply refused to set my dog up until Mr Nasty was on a leash and under control. Likewise, I warned the ring steward and anyone who happened to be in line after Mr Nasty to wait until Mr Nasty was under control. In your case, I would just speak to the ring steward and tell her that your Mr Nasty needs space. And if the show gets held up a few seconds while your Mr Nasty is being leashed and brought under control, it's just too bad.

 

As for our Mr Nasty, he had his CGC and CD. And yes, his trainer had concerns about him going after a dog during the group sit and down exercises, so they "roughed him up a bit" prior to his obedience trials. Locally, our Mr Nasty had a rep and people knew to stay away from him.

 

Having said this, even if your Mr Nasty wasn't allowed to show there are no guarrentees that another dog won't cause a problem. With animals, there are just no guarrentees about anything. If you want a 100% guarrentee that your dog will never be bothered at a show, you probably should stay home.

[mum24dog]

If I happened to be next in line, I simply refused to set my dog up until Mr Nasty was on a leash and under control. Likewise, I warned the ring steward and anyone who happened to be in line after Mr Nasty to wait until Mr Nasty was under control. In your case, I would just speak to the ring steward and tell her that your Mr Nasty needs space.

 

In the early days of our BC's competition career we've done the warning about him.

He was the one we were not 100% certain would never chase so we would tell the person next in line to wait until ours was back on lead before starting their run.

If there was someone standing right where he was going to finish his run they would be asked to move (shouldn't have been there anyway).

He never has chased in competition and we don't need to warn now but it was just a safety measure.

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

Wow ,after all this I find myself not looking forward to trialing again. I thought once I get some health issues staightened out , trialing was going to be a blast. But now , Im not so sure. Can I still say " I cant wait till next season ?" I dont know. Then again , there is always Schutzhund with the hubby . Maybe I'll try Ring sport

 

I think, Ipsy, that you should just get back out there and try it again. It may turn out to be better than you think.

 

Back when I first started trialing with Speedy - this was in Rally - it wasn't terribly enjoyable. I was more worried about him becoming fearful than anything. Time and experience - and some other non-competition related life stuff - made it easier over time. I'm to the point now where I truly enjoy competing with him. There is always a risk, but with experience, the risks become extremely manageable. It's all second nature to me now.

 

If you like competing in Agility, I say go for it.

 

You are always your dog's advocate. You are always the one responsible for keeping your dog safe. If there is a dog running that you know has had aggression issues, you can always keep your dog out of the building, or far away from an outdoor ring, while that dog runs. If you are next in line, you can let the steward know your concerns. Some might get snippy, but most will be supportive and helpful. I am simply polite to the snippy ones and go on with my life.

 

If there is anything in a course that might throw Dean into his noise phobic panic, I am not in the building when we are waiting our turn. I let the ring steward know what is going on, I get a friend to be my "place" in line and to remind the steward that I am where I need to be. Then I get on the line as quickly as possible. It's not always as fast as everyone would like but we make it work. So far 98% of judges and stewards have been 100% supportive.

 

If I were competing and that dog that jumped my friend's dog were there, I would use great caution. I don't know what rehab has been done. I don't know if the handler has gotten a clue. So I assume that the dog has not been rehabbed and the handler is clueless. I keep physical distance while the dog is on leash. I give the steward a head's up. I might even discreetly let the person in line behind her know that it's best to keep some distance. While the dog is off leash, my dog is not in proximity to the ring. If we are "on deck", we are a good distance away, the steward knows why, and I am quick to get where I need to be once the leash is on.

 

That wouldn't inhibit my enjoyment of the sport at all. These are dogs. There are going to be times when we have to make some effort to look out for our dog's interests. Once it's my turn in the ring, that dog is on leash and (hopefully) taken away from the ring.

 

I do hope you give it a chance. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[Megs]

This is a difficult situation. We don't have any fences at our shows and we normally have a breed show going on in two rings not to far away from the agility.

 

Dogs have often run out the agility ring to go for another dog but thankfully nothing really exceptional, shows are for competing dogs only, non competing dogs have to be crated or kept in your car (ensuring enough ventalation etc). There is a warm up ring for the dog about to go next and then also for the next two dogs in line. No'one is allowed near the start line with a dog or not.....it must be kept clear.

 

It's not very often that I see fights at a show but on occasion we have a standard poodle who enjoys to try and chow all small dogs, most people should not be walking there dogs around the ring or anywhere near it - thats the rule - stay out of the way. All dogs must be on lead at all times except when competing.

 

The most agility rings we have are two so our shows are never huge.....

[IPSY]

Well , I must say I cant remember ever having this much support ! I thank you guys for all your opinions.

Hopefully , with all the new insight on this subject , I can come to a conclusion about trialing. I have always kept a good distance from this dog , its kept us safe so far. I will definatley give other people the heads up about this dog. Thats what I feel would be "doing my civil duty". I can have a clean conscience knowing I did what I could to help avoid a fight.

I think if I didnt continue trialing , I would let my girl down , knowing how much she LOVES AGILITY !

 

Thanks again to everybody who posted to this subject.

[border_collie_crazy]

obviously dogs that are not focased should not be welcome, however as someone who competed with a dog aggressive dog, I would be pretty pissed off if I was not allowed to attend a trial because of my dogs behaviour outside of the ring! yes she looks nasty, which is why I am holding her tight and staying as far from others as a can, but just because she cannot be distrcated outside the ring does NOT mean she will loose focas INSIDE the ring. I competed in Flyball and Agility, when not running or waiting to run she acted like a total a-hole, I had to keep her tightly controlled because nothing could distract her, HOWEVER the second we were actually ready to go, she knew it, and all her focas was on the game..other peoples dogs would escape and throw themselves in HER face, and she would not even give them a second glance. sports were her outlet..she HATES tricks but she loves sports with a passion, and I like to think she is a better dog because of it.

[IPSY]

obviously dogs that are not focased should not be welcome, however as someone who competed with a dog aggressive dog, I would be pretty pissed off if I was not allowed to attend a trial because of my dogs behaviour outside of the ring! yes she looks nasty, which is why I am holding her tight and staying as far from others as a can, but just because she cannot be distrcated outside the ring does NOT mean she will loose focas INSIDE the ring. I competed in Flyball and Agility, when not running or waiting to run she acted like a total a-hole, I had to keep her tightly controlled because nothing could distract her, HOWEVER the second we were actually ready to go, she knew it, and all her focas was on the game..other peoples dogs would escape and throw themselves in HER face, and she would not even give them a second glance. sports were her outlet..she HATES tricks but she loves sports with a passion, and I like to think she is a better dog because of it.

 

I agree with you , but un-focused dogs ad focused dogs can change in a heart beat. How many novice dogs have you seen loose focus with their handler and wonder about the course or better yet leave the ring (GOING THE WRONG WAY) ?

Lots of things can happen and the handler cant be everywhere, and once the dog looses focus , it can be impossible to get them back. It's happened to everybody at least once Im sure. Any dog in my dogs face is going to cause a reaction from her , good or bad , theyre animals ! But I do have a problem with people who do know their dog is aggressive and has a good chance of attacking another dog and they dont want to admit it , so they dont give anybody the "heads up."

At least tell the handler after you to keep their dog leashed and not to enter the ring until the nasty dog is leashed and under control. If everybody that has a reactive dog did this , there might not be any mishaps.

I feel the majority of people who posted to this thread agrees that we must all take responsibility for our dogs actions .

I would not want to be waiting on deck with my dog ready to go in , and the dog running the course eyes my dog and heads for us doing a cujo. If I was notified before of the dogs aggression , I wouldnt be in the ring at all. ( this is just a example , it never happended to us , but I have seen it happen to other people.)

No one wants to ban anybody from trialing , but again , we must be responsible for our dogs behaviour in and out of the ring.

[mum24dog]

obviously dogs that are not focased should not be welcome, however as someone who competed with a dog aggressive dog, I would be pretty pissed off if I was not allowed to attend a trial because of my dogs behaviour outside of the ring! yes she looks nasty, which is why I am holding her tight and staying as far from others as a can, but just because she cannot be distrcated outside the ring does NOT mean she will loose focas INSIDE the ring. I competed in Flyball and Agility, when not running or waiting to run she acted like a total a-hole, I had to keep her tightly controlled because nothing could distract her, HOWEVER the second we were actually ready to go, she knew it, and all her focas was on the game..other peoples dogs would escape and throw themselves in HER face, and she would not even give them a second glance. sports were her outlet..she HATES tricks but she loves sports with a passion, and I like to think she is a better dog because of it.

 

We have one exactly the same. Even if he gets lost on the course for him there is nothing existing outside the ring.

Losing focus on the job in hand doesn't mean forgetting about agility altogether.

Agility is one of those ingrained patterns of behaviour that BCs are so easy to get into. Once on the line the rest of the world disappears.

I have seen very, very few instances where a dog has gone looking for trouble. The vast majority of aggressive incidents are caused by one dog encroaching on another's comfort zone. I can't remember who said something similar earlier in this thread, but it is wise to assume that all other dogs will protect their personal space unless you know otherwise.

If someone knows that they have a troublemaker then of course they should not compete. A friend's vizsla was known to be aggressive at times but had been OK when working at training. Early in his competitive career he left the ring to have a go at another dog (no physical harm) and she made the decision never to compete with him again, which was very responsible of her.

 

Pam

[Blackdawgs]

For a non space enroachment situation, I would think that trouble is most likely to occur at the end of the run. Dogs with issues can be taught some sort of end of run target behavior like touching their nose to the leash or jumping in the owner's arms, so there is less chance of them racing out of the ring after a run.