What good is refusing to sell to AKC home?

[PSmitty]

If I hadn't gotten the ridiculous idea that I wanted the experience of raising a puppy, we would have gone straight back to rescue for another dog.

 

Liz, I'm not "picking" on your statement at all, just borrowing it, because I've heard this a lot. In fact, just got an email from a friend on Friday, asking about breeder recommendations for another friend, who, when asked if she'd consider rescue, said "I would, but I want a puppy". If someone wants a puppy and is willing to wait for the right one to come along, you CAN get puppies in rescue. Sometimes awesome puppies, if RDM were here, she could tell us all about it.

 

Just sayin'.

[ejano]

Liz, I'm not "picking" on your statement at all, just borrowing it, because I've heard this a lot. In fact, just got an email from a friend on Friday, asking about breeder recommendations for another friend, who, when asked if she'd consider rescue, said "I would, but I want a puppy". If someone wants a puppy and is willing to wait for the right one to come along, you CAN get puppies in rescue. Sometimes awesome puppies, if RDM were here, she could tell us all about it.

 

Just sayin'.

 

 

Yes, that is true...Over the years, I've seen some wonderful and very needy pups on PetFinder and on various rescue websites and if things were different, likely would have waited even for a puppy through rescue. And as you say, it isn't guesswork to adopt a rescue if you go through a reputable organization. Not to get too maudlin over it, but last winter, my beloved Scotty was killed the same week I was diagnosed with cancer, and it seemed that my world had ended. In common with many folks, I'm sure, I've cried more tears for that dog than I ever have for a family member who died. I was only 8 weeks into my recovery from knee replacement surgery and facing more tests, more surgery and without Scotty whom I'd trained to be of some assistance.

 

You could rightly say we were out of our minds to even consider getting another dog, let alone a puppy at that point, but I really needed to focus my mind on something positive - I was truly devastated both over Scotty's loss and my diagnosis and so were my husband and son. We'd also just lost my brother to cancer, which made it so much harder on everyone in my famikly. The rescue person who brought us Scotty knew that a litter was expected as one of her males was "Dad" and suggested we meet with the breeder as We eased into it; meeting before my surgery and making the final decision when we knew what my prospects were going to be as the statistics on lung cancer aren't exactly heartwarming. As it turns out, I am one of those very fortunate few in that the cancer was found before it became symptomatic and extremely difficult to treat and so have a bright outlook. I focused on the impending birth of the pups (about a month after my surgery) and once they were born, visited often and sent out "Robin" updates complete with pictures to friends and family.

 

I am ever so grateful for that opportunity to meet Terry and experience the healing place that is her farm. Someone recently asked me how I made it through the surgery and chemotherapy in such good shape -- I said, Terry and the pups - and she continues to be my mentor. It is at her gentle urging that Brodie and I are going to try some herding lessons in the spring -- another reason to keep getting in better and better shape. . We were completely honest with Terry about my health complications and we could have had an experience like the OP and been "kicked to the curb" so to speak, but Terry waited with us to hear the results of the surgery and really wanted for us to have a pup - or two, as it turned out. She took the pups every time I needed to go for chemo and welcomed us back to the farm afterward with fresh lemonade and laughter about the mischief the pups had gotten into that week.

 

When talking about expectations for our dogs and pups - I recognize that I have placed special demands on both Robin and Brodie, but especially Robin, because he was the one we "planned" from the beginning - I don't consider Robin my good luck charm (though he was born on the same day the robins returned to our area) but I do admit that he has been a focal point for my recovery and getting back into life. There were days after they came home to us that I wouldn't have gotten out of bed if two squirmy puppies hadn't needed to be let out, played with, fed, and cuddled and talked to while Ken was at work. I walk the fields now and think about those hard days last summer when I was struggling to make one lap around the yard, still huffing and puffing from the lung surgery and wobbly from knee replacement and sick from the chemo- we fenced in about a quarter of an acre and I thought, one trip around -- I can do one trip around - He's also been very helpful when I meet people who are morbidly curious as to why I'm still breathing; I deflect conversation to Robin and he is a very sweet distraction as he loves to meet people, even impolite ones. . I bore them to pieces with my talk of raising and training him and they forget about asking questions .

 

While I was playing with Robin, Brodie was sneaking into Ken's heart, so that's how we ended up with the two of them -- not something I'd recommend....raising same sex siblings from the same litter has it challenges, but with a lot of effort and great input from folks on this board, we're stumbling through it. And yes, we have a plan if I should get very sick. Will either pup disappoint us? Never though I would like to see Robin do slightly better than his Newfoundland cousins at rally obedience and it would be nice if Brodie and I could connect on the herding side. But, even if they turn out to be the thickest dunderheads that exists on the planet , they're just right for us. .

 

You know, looking back, I've got a great deal to be thankful for this Thanksgiving. . Cheers, all.

 

Liz

[Rave]

We (trainer, myself, and his massage therapist) agree he jumps best at 20 inches. At 16 he jumps flat (which can strain his back) and any higher he's really having to strain/push to jump. If USDAA had 20 inches, I'd be estatic. His back can get thrown out simply by running/playing too much too. He/We just love playing the sport too much to just quit.

 

 

I'm sorry but that's the lamest excuse I've ever heard. Jumping flat doesn't a strain a back anymore than jumping does - if 16" strains it than 20" strains it more. Higher jump means bigger impact. And you can work on asking him to round when you need a tighter turn, which will happen anyway when you ask him to add a stride and take off closer to the jump. Any good trainer will teach you how. And how tall is he that an extra 2" to jump 22" in USDAA would make that big of a difference? If his back is so bad he can't even run or play much, then maybe you shouldn't be doing agility with him at all? And maybe you should be jumping as LOW as possible to minimize any stress of impact, like 16" not 20".

[Shetlander]

Jumping flat doesn't a strain a back anymore than jumping does - if 16" strains it than 20" strains it more. Higher jump means bigger impact.

 

I'm not a vet, but I'd have to agree. The thing about jumping flat is bars tend to get knocked more which is why I've seen a number of people have their dogs jump the next height up.

 

And you can work on asking him to round when you need a tighter turn, which will happen anyway when you ask him to add a stride and take off closer to the jump. Any good trainer will teach you how

 

Good point, but you might be overestimating the number of really good trainers out there who are available for lessons. When I was doing agility, I had to drive a minimum of an hour and a half to get to a truly good trainer and that was only after I had been in the sport for a while. But I'm sort of in an agility dessert when it comes to instructors. Mainly it is enthusiastic amateurs helping each other out the best they can.

[mum24dog]

I'm sorry but that's the lamest excuse I've ever heard. Jumping flat doesn't a strain a back anymore than jumping does - if 16" strains it than 20" strains it more. Higher jump means bigger impact. And you can work on asking him to round when you need a tighter turn, which will happen anyway when you ask him to add a stride and take off closer to the jump. Any good trainer will teach you how. And how tall is he that an extra 2" to jump 22" in USDAA would make that big of a difference? If his back is so bad he can't even run or play much, then maybe you shouldn't be doing agility with him at all? And maybe you should be jumping as LOW as possible to minimize any stress of impact, like 16" not 20".

 

The stresses from higher or lower jumps can't be directly compared.

Flatter jumping leads to a landing where the front legs are stretched out straight with more impact that stress that travels back into the shoulders.

Higher jumps lead to a rounder trajectory and a landing where the front assembly folds to absorb the impact, much as we would bend our knees if jumping off a chair.

I suppose in this case whether or not one height or another would put extra strain on the back would depend on the location of the problem.

However, I was wondering the same as you - I wouldn't be doing agility with a dog with a back problem at any height.

[Conner22]

Not really looking to argue much about this, as its not the point of the post.

20 Inches for my boy makes him jump in a very nice round curve, he collects best, and lands smoothest. He can turn tight, and land properly.

22-24 inches, he has difficulty and has to strain/push off more when making turns, he does NOT jump as well at this height.

at 16 inches, he's flat, he jumps inverted, head up. This means not collecting, going very fast, not turning properly. Litterally pounding and full out running.

To lessen the impact on a dog, you train a dog to jump both ways, to conserve the most energy and provide for the best landing. For turning (which happens sometimes in agility) you want the arched back, collection both before and after the jump, as it provides the least impact, easiest on the dogs body. If you are running a series of jumps, the dog running full out with head up "inverted" uses the least effort, and the best style for impact.

The instructor that is "so lacking" is a world team member, a nationals winner, trains under Linda mecklinberg.

The massage therapist works for zoos, has traveled the globe, works on national dogs including team member dogs.

the injury is a SOFT tissue injury. Kinda like if you hurt (throw out) your back. Well, dissuse is not the answer at all! I keep it in good shape with regular massage/chiropractor, warm up, cool down. if you ask ANY physical therapist, just becuase you injure your back (soft tissue) does not mean NOT to use it, it just means be CAREFUL when you do use it. Strengthen it and properly stretch it. do excersizes to prevent further injury, not avoid using it entirely!

What i was emphasizing, is that little things throw a back like this out. Such as running too much, or changing jump heights even a little. Actually, one of the nice things about agility, is you are constantly aware of your dogs body, and if there IS an issue, you can address it. Many people I know do not even know a dog CAN be or NEED to be chiropractored, or what it means when a dog is tight in his back. They go to the vet if their dog is in pain, and give them pain medicine- instead of fixing the problem (or even understanding it) they merely cover it up. Or they just hope "he'll feel better in a few days". An ounce of prevention.....

[Conner22]

The whole point of this post was litterally, what use is it to NOT sell to AKC home? I have seen "well bred" dogs end up at backyard breeders who do nothing with their dogs and they are outside dogs all their lives producing puppies til their 11 yrs old. I have seen well bred dogs end up in rescues, shelters, because they are sold to pet homes that can't handle them (as not every puppy is herding quality, nor is every pup sold to a herding home). What I was pointing out my "AKC" home is litterally the least of the actual type of home I am and recieves the least of my money. I am a home that loves bcs, that trains them, that gives them attention, and DOES NOT BREED and sympathizes with the fact that bcs should be only bred out of good working parents ! Instead, money that should be spent supporting a breeder that breeds high quality herding dogs, will go to somewhere else....! Possibly getting a resue dog that was ironically bred by the same breeders, but instead of having a great home for the first 3 years of life, was pretty miserable because selling to a pet home was WAY better than selling to a home like mine. I was pointing out the irony of that situation.

(Dont worry, I will keep looking for a home that sells to pet homes out of good workig parents)

[Jumpin Boots]

But if I'm looking for a bc for agility purposes, that can be very tricky when going to rescue, as agility is quite alot for any bc, let alone one that may come with past fears that are unknown in a nice rescue facility , but come out in an agility setting. Or just doesnt have drive in agility. I don't even see the point in persuing something with a dog that isn't happy in. A puppy IS a risk too! But, I have more input on temperment, and control over the way they view things. Plus, they tend to adapt very quickly INTO the pack, which is huge for me, as I do have 3 dogs. 2 border collies, 1 chihuahua. Although I do classify the chihuahua as an "other pet" kinda like having a ferret.... lol

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that you think that you can better evaluate an 8 week old pup for agility then say a 10 month old adolescent. There is so much regarding play drive, willingness to please, work ethic, movement, body structure, I could go on; that is a shot in the dark with a pup versus a rescue. Not to say that you can that you can be 100% with a rescue either or that issues couldn't pop up; but this is where you also have to put research into a rescue. You don't go to the pound and take home the first b/w dog you see. You find a good rescue, you tell them what you are looking for and let them be involved in selecting good possible matches. You meet the dog multiple times and if possible in multiple scenarios. Take others that are unbiased to meet the dog. Not to say that pups are wonderful, someday I hope to rescue or maybe even purchase one, but I think it will be more of a gamble then any of my rescues or fosters have been.

 

I also agree with Rave and others about the 20'' jumping being less impact then the 16'' jumps. Your dog very well may have better form at 20'', but this is where teaching him how to jump properly at 16'' comes into play. I recently moved one of my dogs in veteran's so he dropped for 20'' to 16''; I had to do some re-teaching to change his take-off point when approaching jumps to add in nice arc again, did it take some time sure, but after jumping 5 years at 20'' he was able to re-learn how to jump properly at 16''.

[Lenajo]

I'm sorry but that's the lamest excuse I've ever heard. Jumping flat doesn't a strain a back anymore than jumping does - if 16" strains it than 20" strains it more. Higher jump means bigger impact.

 

You're wrong. Sorry.

 

There are some European studies that prove that jumping low and fast is much more apt to cause injury than jumping higher. I don't have the studies at my fingertips - last time I looked at some was when I was working with a British trainer (world team level) a few years ago.

 

Watching dogs jump will tell you the same story. Dogs that jump higher have to round their bodies more, and land more on the balls of their feet and cushion the impact. Low, flat, fast (aka normal border collie speed) jumping prediposes both to back injury, as well as shoulder, wrist and paw injuries.

 

You *can* jump a dog too high, but typically before you do lasting harm they will usually knock enough bars that the human gets a natural correction in terms of ribbons/scores LOL In the case of chronic injury, finding a happy medium of height (the minimum height the dog jumps safely/correctly)is the best bet.

 

Agility, like sheepdog *trials* are a __choice__. There are known handlers in both areas that choose to compete with dogs that are held together by a team of professionals and medications. You have to weigh quality of life versus the dog in question's health. We would hope ego would stay out of it of course.

 

For the OP - I would continue your search and be patient. Many working breeders of nationally and internationally successful dogs are more than happy to supply a quality pup to an agility home as long as they spay and neuter. And I would still consider an adult (12 months or older) Rescue from a reliable source as well.

[Rave]

Well as a researcher, I can find just about any study to support either side of a claim. If that were true, flyball dogs would receive jumping injuries far more often than agility dogs and I just don't see or hear of that happening (as someone who's competed regularly in both for 12+ years now in multiple areas of the country). Yes watch dogs jump - dogs that jump higher do not have to round their bodies more. My dog can jump flat over 22" just like she can jump round over 16", it depends on the takeoff point.

 

In talking to rehab vets who are familiar with agility, I've been told the tight turns on landing present the most stress in jumping. If that's true, than it would support the hypothesis that straight line jumping is less stressful on dogs in general. And as an engineer, I'd add torque presents more stress than in-line force (please don't make me look up the equations, I haven't finished my coffee yet). Regardless, if a dog's back is sore/injured, *any* jumping will/can exacerbate it, whether you see that in the back itself or in compensation elsewhere. ACK agility in general has less straight line running and more twisty turny no-flow courses than other venues, especially NADAC. If I had a dog with a sore back and just had to keep competing for whatever reason, I'd put the dog in NADAC at a lower jump height (older dogs even get a double drop). With their open flowing courses, lower jumps & contacts, general lack of tight turns and many courses without jumps, NADAC is the ideal venue for sore dogs and other dogs who probably shouldn't be competing in a more physically demanding venue (or at all).

 

Agility, like sheepdog *trials* are a __choice__. There are known handlers in both areas that choose to compete with dogs that are held together by a team of professionals and medications. You have to weigh quality of life versus the dog in question's health. We would hope ego would stay out of it of course.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. Almost as bad as handlers who "throw away" dogs who aren't good enough, in ANY sport/hobby.

[WildFlower]

What I was pointing out my "AKC" home is litterally the least of the actual type of home I am and recieves the least of my money.

 

Some people/breeders do not want anything to do with the AKC. That includes selling a pup to a home that will turn around and support the AKC with money via their participation fees.

 

The bottom line is to each their own.

[mum24dog]

You're wrong. Sorry.

 

There are some European studies that prove that jumping low and fast is much more apt to cause injury than jumping higher. I don't have the studies at my fingertips - last time I looked at some was when I was working with a British trainer (world team level) a few years ago.

 

I think this is what you're referring to.

 

http://www.mouwen.nl/dap/index.php?option=...&Itemid=255

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

If that were true, flyball dogs would receive jumping injuries far more often than agility dogs

 

Flyball dogs don't generally land with foreleg extended. The jumps are too close together to allow it. The landing in the action of a flyball bounce is very different from an extended landing after low agility jumps.

 

Pam

[Rave]

I think this is what you're referring to.

 

http://www.mouwen.nl/dap/index.php?option=...&Itemid=255

 

Pam

 

 

Awesome thanks! I read through it quickly, will have to wait until later to spend more time analyzing his assumptions (e.g. assumed take-off points). I would like to see his actual calculations though, as I think the difference in absorbed kinetic energy is negligible when you look at the speeds BCs go when jumping short compared to jumping long.

 

BTW, I didn't see anything mentioning stressing the back, rather the stress on the shoulders & neck. ;-)

 

edit - it also appears pretty outdated when looking at the contact assumptions... "dogs trot or step over contacts." lol

[Rave]

Flyball dogs don't generally land with foreleg extended. The jumps are too close together to allow it. The landing in the action of a flyball bounce is very different from an extended landing after low agility jumps.

 

Pam

 

The first time I saw the foreleg extended was captured in a pic of a flyball dog landing. Granted I don't analyze flyball dogs jumping so can't say if it happens frequently or not. And according to the conclusions of the author of the above study, flyball dogs should see more stress in jumping than agility dogs given the higher speed and longer horizontal distance jumped, and less time/area the landing foreleg is in contact with the ground. Granted, I don't think an agility dog jumping flat is the same as a flyball dog jumping flat because the difference between dog height and jump height is *usually* greater in flyball.

[Eileen Stein]

The whole point of this post was litterally, what use is it to NOT sell to AKC home? I have seen "well bred" dogs end up at backyard breeders who do nothing with their dogs and they are outside dogs all their lives producing puppies til their 11 yrs old. I have seen well bred dogs end up in rescues, shelters, because they are sold to pet homes that can't handle them (as not every puppy is herding quality, nor is every pup sold to a herding home).

 

I have never understood the argument that a good working breeder should sell to an AKC home because it's better than selling to a backyard breeder or an irresponsible, incompetent pet home. Why sell to any of the above? There are enough good non-AKC homes that a good breeder should never have to make that choice.

 

I am a home that loves bcs, that trains them, that gives them attention, and DOES NOT BREED and sympathizes with the fact that bcs should be only bred out of good working parents !

 

That's good. But you could do all that and not register with the AKC too.

 

Instead, money that should be spent supporting a breeder that breeds high quality herding dogs, will go to somewhere else....! Possibly getting a resue dog that was ironically bred by the same breeders, but instead of having a great home for the first 3 years of life, was pretty miserable because selling to a pet home was WAY better than selling to a home like mine. I was pointing out the irony of that situation.

 

Well, you haven't shown that there are many (or any!) dogs in rescue from breeders who would not sell to AKC homes. Most breeders who care little about the homes their dogs end up in don't care enough to refuse to sell to AKC homes. And what sort of a breeder would compromise his/her principles just in the hope of getting money that would otherwise go to rescue?

 

I am one who will not sell pups to homes where they will be registered with the AKC. I recognize that there are many, many AKC homes where the pup would be lovingly raised, and where life would be wonderful for that individual dog. That is not the issue for me. The cardinal principle for me is that border collies should not be an AKC breed, and the AKC showed the most profound disrespect for the essential character of the breed and for the border collie community when it recognized the breed over the objections of those who developed it. I believe that the best hope for our breed is if there is a strict line of demarcation between AKC "Border Collies" and traditional border collies, bred for work. I could not in good conscience sell a border collie to be registered with the AKC. I have discussed this in full with every potential puppy buyer I've ever dealt with who was unfamiliar with the issue, and if they don't agree with my philosophy I just don't want to sell a pup to them.

[Rave]

Question for those who do AKC agility. When registering JUST for agility competitions, does the dog have to be registered with the AKC registry (i.e. studbook)???? Are the AKC breeding/studbook/whatever it's called registration numbers the same as the agility registration numbers? Basically, is registration to breed the same as registration to compete in agility? Thanks!

[Shetlander]

Basically, is registration to breed the same as registration to compete in agility?

 

Yes. Registration is simply registration as some AKC recognized breed, whether you show in conformation or a sport.

[Conner22]

BOTH styles of jumping have a place in "sports". Again, you train a dog BOTH methods of jumping (inverted, and arched). This is so a dog can have "options" to better flow thru the agility course. A more "natural" way of jumping IS inverted- when jumping/running thru woods, in play, in fields of tall grass.... You TRAIN the arched method to help the dog prevent injury by COLLECTING, proper foot placement, head down, and landing/taking off with appropriate force!

In agility- a STRAIGHT line of jumps SHOULD be jumped invertedly- this provides speed and not alot of injury and good flow. But if i need said dog to turn while jumping, inverted is a bad choice. A dog being jumped at a lower jump height can easily jump inverted the entire course- and this is when the injury can occur- as what do you think happens when a dog's head is up, he is flying and pounding, and he tries to TORQUE in the AIR and decrease speed abruptly?????? You really think this would only stress the shoulder area? Why, even if it only irritated the shoulders, would I want to create another "problematic" area for my dog by jumping lower?

As for "NADAC" i've already pointed out I dont have that in my area- so not sure what good that does me.

SOOOOO- if in FLYBALL dogs jump a straight series of jumps.....invertedly.....and don't have much injury to show.... welllllll..... thats very very accurate and EXPECTED. INTERESTINGLY- where flyball dogs WERE getting injured was when TURNING on the box after pounding/running full out down the line of jumps .... thus why the training to TEACH the dog how to properly turn (bank curve), head down, collecting, foot placement on the box to minimize injury....

If i were to stop agility to prevent further "injury" to my dog's back (which was already addressed in a different post) I would have to point out that I'd also need to stop sleeping with my dog (as getting out of my bed could irritate his back) and he'd need to stop doing "dangerous" things like running, playing, hiking to prevent his back from getting tight again! So I'd basicallly need to take my dog and walk him for the rest of his life, and NEVER play with dangerous things like frisbee and balls again. *sigh* REALLY????

[Conner22]

I am one who will not sell pups to homes where they will be registered with the AKC. I recognize that there are many, many AKC homes where the pup would be lovingly raised, and where life would be wonderful for that individual dog. That is not the issue for me. The cardinal principle for me is that border collies should not be an AKC breed, and the AKC showed the most profound disrespect for the essential character of the breed and for the border collie community when it recognized the breed over the objections of those who developed it. I believe that the best hope for our breed is if there is a strict line of demarcation between AKC "Border Collies" and traditional border collies, bred for work. I could not in good conscience sell a border collie to be registered with the AKC. I have discussed this in full with every potential puppy buyer I've ever dealt with who was unfamiliar with the issue, and if they don't agree with my philosophy I just don't want to sell a pup to them.

 

What if the pup you were selling was NOT being registered AKC? But, the home you were selling to had AKC registered dogs who did AKC agility? Say for example, I'd built up enough interest over the years in my favorite breed to try herding (and NOT referring to AKC herding), but also taught/competed in USDAA agility for "fun". Just curious about where line is drawn!

[Conner22]

I have never understood the argument that a good working breeder should sell to an AKC home because it's better than selling to a backyard breeder or an irresponsible, incompetent pet home.

I have never of course bred/sold dogs to know, but I always assumed that one couldn't always tell the type of home their pup was going to? Like how do you tell the difference between a "good pet home" and a badly matched pet home? Or tell the difference from a backyard breeder who keeps dogs outside 24/7 and trains them in clinics once a year vs a casual/dabbling in herding home who also wants a pet?

Or a back yard breeder who needs said dog to "work"- that is WALK behind food tamed sheep while churning out litters VS a farmer who coudl really use a dog to WORK their flock and also occasionally breeds?

That is what I *assumed* when I posted. Like I said, I don't have any personal experience. But both my current boys are from working local-ish dogs, who dont keep track of their pups, but do use their dogs on their flocks. They certainly didn't do home checks, but did want to know if I'd ever owned a bc before and made sure I was going to be an active home and provide an outlet/training.

I do know of a couple of dogs in current situation- with backyard breeders who keep dogs outside 24/7 and never herd except maybe 1-2 x a year in between breedings- and these dogs are from impressive names. I will NOT mention more! No interest in flaming posts right?

[Conner22]

Well, you haven't shown that there are many (or any!) dogs in rescue from breeders who would not sell to AKC homes.

 

True- I had posted that after I run accross this dog in rescue- and wondered at it.

http://www.glenhighlandfarm.com/ghfdogs.htm

You'll have to scroll down to a dog called Stan- almost at the end of the page under dogs in the Connor House. I of course, have NO idea if the original owners would refuse to sell to akc home tho, but was vaguely astonished to see such a case of neglect in what appears to be a highly valued dog.

I also wonder how such a bad home ended up with a dog someone obviously put so much time and care into.

Of course- this could be the ONLY case like this that EVER occurred, as it seems highly unusual. But many dogs in rescue don't have papers, and of course, no discernable paper trail to ever determine if these dogs are from good breedings or not.

[Rave]

BOTH styles of jumping have a place in "sports". Again, you train a dog BOTH methods of jumping (inverted, and arched). This is so a dog can have "options" to better flow thru the agility course. A more "natural" way of jumping IS inverted- when jumping/running thru woods, in play, in fields of tall grass.... You TRAIN the arched method to help the dog prevent injury by COLLECTING, proper foot placement, head down, and landing/taking off with appropriate force!

In agility- a STRAIGHT line of jumps SHOULD be jumped invertedly- this provides speed and not alot of injury and good flow. But if i need said dog to turn while jumping, inverted is a bad choice. A dog being jumped at a lower jump height can easily jump inverted the entire course- and this is when the injury can occur- as what do you think happens when a dog's head is up, he is flying and pounding, and he tries to TORQUE in the AIR and decrease speed abruptly?????? You really think this would only stress the shoulder area? Why, even if it only irritated the shoulders, would I want to create another "problematic" area for my dog by jumping lower?

As for "NADAC" i've already pointed out I dont have that in my area- so not sure what good that does me.

SOOOOO- if in FLYBALL dogs jump a straight series of jumps.....invertedly.....and don't have much injury to show.... welllllll..... thats very very accurate and EXPECTED. INTERESTINGLY- where flyball dogs WERE getting injured was when TURNING on the box after pounding/running full out down the line of jumps .... thus why the training to TEACH the dog how to properly turn (bank curve), head down, collecting, foot placement on the box to minimize injury....

If i were to stop agility to prevent further "injury" to my dog's back (which was already addressed in a different post) I would have to point out that I'd also need to stop sleeping with my dog (as getting out of my bed could irritate his back) and he'd need to stop doing "dangerous" things like running, playing, hiking to prevent his back from getting tight again! So I'd basicallly need to take my dog and walk him for the rest of his life, and NEVER play with dangerous things like frisbee and balls again. *sigh* REALLY????

 

he tries to TORQUE in the AIR and decrease speed abruptly

lol no offense but if any of my dogs did that, I'd be beating myself over the head for bad handling and apologizing to my dog. The reference to shoulder stress while jumping was in response to the article link posted. I'm not saying jumping irritates shoulders, the author of the article implies that.

 

You are assuming if a dog jumps lower than it's jump height, that it's automatically jumping inverted. I beg to differ. Even a dog jumping a little flat isn't necessarily inverted. I don't train my dog to jump two different ways; in fact I don't even train mine how to jump, rather let them figure it out naturally (BTW I want my dog to have her head up regardless of how she's jumping, helps her to see where she's going ;-)). I've seen dogs who jump everything inverted regardless of height and takeoff distance; they're basically poor jumpers who could possibly benefit from formal jump training.

 

And yes, if my dog was nursing a sore back, damn skippy she's not allowed to jump up on the bed or play frisbee. She'd be on leash walks until it healed. Been there done that. Running injured dogs in agility just isn't worth it to me; I'd prefer my dogs have long sports careers. I've known way too many dogs with very minor injuries who weren't rested enough and ended up having long drawn-out nagging injuries that plagued their careers. Anyway, my intent is not to scrutinize your dog's injury/soreness/whatever or wherever you are in your dog's rehab; my only point was a dog who's sore probably shouldn't be jumping. And everytime I've rehabbed a dog (with the help of professionals), we'd start the dog low when introducing jumping again, not high.

 

The most injuries I've seen in flyball are from dog-dog or dog-people collisions, not from the box. Haven't personally seen any injuries on the box (even on dogs with crappy turns), but I'm sure they happen. Again don't want my dog's head down here either. ;-)

[Maralynn]

True- I had posted that after I run accross this dog in rescue- and wondered at it.

http://www.glenhighlandfarm.com/ghfdogs.htm

You'll have to scroll down to a dog called Stan- almost at the end of the page under dogs in the Connor House. I of course, have NO idea if the original owners would refuse to sell to akc home tho, but was vaguely astonished to see such a case of neglect in what appears to be a highly valued dog.

I also wonder how such a bad home ended up with a dog someone obviously put so much time and care into.

Of course- this could be the ONLY case like this that EVER occurred, as it seems highly unusual. But many dogs in rescue don't have papers, and of course, no discernable paper trail to ever determine if these dogs are from good breedings or not.

 

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. You have no clue the background of the owners or sellers - nothing except the claims on the website. It's sad this dog ended up like that, but then it's sad when any dog ends up in that sort of situation.

 

I would venture to guess that most people who really care about the breed are the ones who refuse to sell to AKC homes. If you're that passionate about the breed you're probably a bit picky about who gets your pups, AKC or not.

[Conner22]

And yes, if my dog was nursing a sore back, damn skippy she's not allowed to jump up on the bed or play frisbee. She'd be on leash walks until it healed. Been there done that. Running injured dogs in agility just isn't worth it to me; I'd prefer my dogs have long sports careers.

 

Agreed! Again- when I say bad back- I mean he HAS injured it previously,and I currently take very good care of it. I took approx 6+ months off of agility and limited play. Once a dog has injured soft tissue, its usually never quite the same again, and is easier to injure again. I do not wish to jump heights that can cause stress on him. MY Personal preference and professional opinion of others. That is all. I just wish it wasn't being so focused on in this specific post, but instead being persued in AGILITY FLYBALL section of BC boards. I am merely trying to explain the WHY I am not a bad pet owner for daring to jump my dog, and tried to provide the reasoning I have learned in training over the years for jumping at specific heights/styles. If you followed the linda mecklinberg style (read her books/clean run) she DOES teach jumping, jumping styles, etc.

Most injuries I've run accross in agility happen outside the ring, usually at home. The point of training is in part to keep potential injuries at bay, or provide less stress/strain. For example: Contacts. You DONT jump off contacts- it can injure the dog. However, MANY dogs HAVE jumped off the contact obstacles without injury- BUT that doesnt mean its safe or advisable OR good training.