Who ?

[IPSY]

Hopefully someone can help shed some light on this subject...Can a pups parents be registered with both

AKC and ABCA under a different names ? One of the said dogs is listed with full kennel name with one place and only the "call" name with the other .....is this right ?

[Mark Billadeau]

Since the AKC will accept ABCA papers but not the other way around I would guess that the kennel name was added (perhaps even required if the AKC does not allow replicate names in their stud book) when the dog was dual registered with the AKC. Since we don't dual register I am only guessing.

 

Mark

[Sue R]

ABCA registration names are limited to (I believe) 14 letters, numbers, and spaces. AKC registration names, as far as I can see, have no limits to either length, content, or sensibility. An ABCA-registered dog can be dual-registered with AKC if the owner so chooses. An AKC-registered dog (or pup of AKC-registered parents) can not be registered with ABCA (unless both parents were also ABCA-registered). Any ABCA dog that is also registered AKC and achieves a conformation championship, is de-registered with ABCA and (I believe) its offspring may not be registered with ABCA (but, I think, can obtain an ABCA registration through the Register On Merit or ROM, which demonstrates stockworking ability).

 

So, for a dual-registered dog, the ABCA and AKC names can be totally different, which does answer your question.

 

IMO, if the breeder(s) dual-register the dogs, I'd look elsewhere for a breeder who avoids AKC affiliation entirely. Which is not what you asked, I know.

[Mark Billadeau]

Based upon AKC Eligibility for Open Registration I would guess that the sire and/or dam were already dual registered.

 

The dog must be registered with the same name that appears on the certificate from the domestic registry.

[IPSY]

ABCA registration names are limited to (I believe) 14 letters, numbers, and spaces. AKC registration names, as far as I can see, have no limits to either length, content, or sensibility. An ABCA-registered dog can be dual-registered with AKC if the owner so chooses. An AKC-registered dog (or pup of AKC-registered parents) can not be registered with ABCA (unless both parents were also ABCA-registered). Any ABCA dog that is also registered AKC and achieves a conformation championship, is de-registered with ABCA and (I believe) its offspring may not be registered with ABCA (but, I think, can obtain an ABCA registration through the Register On Merit or ROM, which demonstrates stockworking ability).

 

So, for a dual-registered dog, the ABCA and AKC names can be totally different, which does answer your question.

 

IMO, if the breeder(s) dual-register the dogs, I'd look elsewhere for a breeder who avoids AKC affiliation entirely. Which is not what you asked, I know.

 

 

Yes I wish I knew all this before I got the pup...I would have avoided AKC , but what can I do about it now anyway..

I just thought it to be strange for a dog to be registered under two different names. The "full" name is completely different then the "call" name , as most dogs are I guess ..I just thought they would be registered with their "papered" name with the AKC and ABCA , just to be "formal" ....

[IPSY]

Based upon AKC Eligibility for Open Registration I would guess that the sire and/or dam were already dual registered.

[/quote

 

I need to look further into this ...But not like I can do anything about it anyway.

[Sue R]

I see from Mark's link that I am apparently incorrect in stating that the ABCA name need not be the AKC name. That does not seem to agree with what I felt I remembered, and I wonder if an AKC name can include the ABCA name, along with additional words or phrases (like Magic Farm Will-o-Wisp "Bob" for an AKC name for a dog that was ABCA-registered as Bob).

 

I'm probably just managing to stick my foot in my mouth again. Sorry if I was wrong.

[IPSY]

I see from Mark's link that I am apparently incorrect in stating that the ABCA name need not be the AKC name. That does not seem to agree with what I felt I remembered, and I wonder if an AKC name can include the ABCA name, along with additional words or phrases (like Magic Farm Will-o-Wisp "Bob" for an AKC name for a dog that was ABCA-registered as Bob).

 

I'm probably just managing to stick my foot in my mouth again. Sorry if I was wrong.

 

That is what I mean though, like your example , will-o-wisp "bob" . That's how he is registered , and thats what really confused me. It really bothers me when you try to do your research on breeders and their dogs and really all you can do is hope for the best . Not that this is a big problem , I could have health problems which nothing major has surfaced and hopefully wont , but this is not something I thought I would have a problem with !

[stockdogranch]

Registering under different names is also an attempt to "hide" the fact that the dog is being dual registered. Now, unless, the dog were to be shown in conformation, I'm not sure why one would want to do that. But if the dog were to be shown in the show ring, and won a championship, it might be a way to try to keep the dog in question from being de-registered with the ABCA, since perhaps the ABCA might not catch that it's the same dog. I'm really not making this up--I once overheard an AKC rep tell a handler to do just that,

A

[Shetlander]

AKC registration names, as far as I can see, have no limits to either length, content, or sensibility.

 

Actually, there is a limit of length and some reasons a name can be rejected.

[IPSY]

Registering under different names is also an attempt to "hide" the fact that the dog is being dual registered. Now, unless, the dog were to be shown in conformation, I'm not sure why one would want to do that. But if the dog were to be shown in the show ring, and won a championship, it might be a way to try to keep the dog in question from being de-registered with the ABCA, since perhaps the ABCA might not catch that it's the same dog. I'm really not making this up--I once overheard an AKC rep tell a handler to do just that,

A

 

Amazing what goes on....If you try to "talk" to the person you get sharply reminded of a contract and if not happy , return him ! Most puppy contracts are designed to benefit the breeder , not the buyer...

Who in this world , I ask you , would return a puppy , after the bond has been formed ?

All you can do is hope the people you are dealing with are upfront with all information regarding the pup..

[ziggzmom]

I see from Mark's link that I am apparently incorrect in stating that the ABCA name need not be the AKC name. That does not seem to agree with what I felt I remembered, and I wonder if an AKC name can include the ABCA name, along with additional words or phrases (like Magic Farm Will-o-Wisp "Bob" for an AKC name for a dog that was ABCA-registered as Bob).

 

I'm probably just managing to stick my foot in my mouth again. Sorry if I was wrong.

 

Hi,

 

One of my BC's has parents that are registered with both AKC and ABCA. My dog's AKC reg. name and ABCA reg. name are completely different.

 

Janet

[IPSY]

Hi,

 

One of my BC's has parents that are registered with both AKC and ABCA. My dog's AKC reg. name and ABCA reg. name are completely different.

 

Janet

 

Thanks for posting , Janet. I'ts comforting to see this does happen . Have you had any problems with either registry ?

[ziggzmom]

Registering under different names is also an attempt to "hide" the fact that the dog is being dual registered. Now, unless, the dog were to be shown in conformation, I'm not sure why one would want to do that. But if the dog were to be shown in the show ring, and won a championship, it might be a way to try to keep the dog in question from being de-registered with the ABCA, since perhaps the ABCA might not catch that it's the same dog. I'm really not making this up--I once overheard an AKC rep tell a handler to do just that,

A

 

Hi,

 

And in my case, I just liked a name that was longer than ABCA would allow. My dog is neutered, so not going for a championship-LOL, and I'm definately not trying to hide anything!

 

Janet

[ziggzmom]

Thanks for posting , Janet. I'ts comforting to see this does happen . Have you had any problems with either registry ?

 

No problems so far(was there anything specific you are talking about?).

 

Janet

[IPSY]

No problems so far(was there anything specific you are talking about?).

 

Janet

 

No , not really . But this is the first BC I actually purchased and I was trying to register him and found all this out.

I do agility( AKC , USDAA , UKC , etc.. and some obedience and was just wondering if I title this dog , would I have any future problems with the registries and if I was to breed him , (which wont happen) would I have issues . Just want to know my boundaries I guess.

If I was to get 'into' herding seriously , what would happen then ? Would I have problems entering him in any competitions ?

 

 

thanks..

[Sue R]

Hi,

 

One of my BC's has parents that are registered with both AKC and ABCA. My dog's AKC reg. name and ABCA reg. name are completely different.

 

Janet

As far as I understand, since both parents are dual-registered, you can register your pup with either registry and with whatever name(s) you choose (within each registry's limits).

[Eileen Stein]

The ABCA cannot prevent the AKC from registering our dogs in any way they want. If we could, we would. If the AKC has a rule that the AKC-registered name must be the same as the ABC-registered name, they simply do not follow it. AKC names are often totally different from the ABC-registered name. The AKC permits names to be up to 36 characters (including spaces) long, and up to 50 if you pay extra. That is why you see names like "Omegamtn Mi Sun Dancer Of Blue Rose," which I came across this week. The ABCA allows up to 14 characters (including spaces).

 

Yes I wish I knew all this before I got the pup...I would have avoided AKC , but what can I do about it now anyway. . . .

It really bothers me when you try to do your research on breeders and their dogs and really all you can do is hope for the best .

 

Did you ask if the parents and/or the pup were AKC registered before you bought the pup? If you really want to avoid AKC, that's how to do it.

 

I just thought they would be registered with their "papered" name with the AKC and ABCA , just to be "formal" ....

 

Working border collies traditionally do not have formal papered names. The names on paper are the same as the names in real life, except perhaps for a kennel prefix.

 

And in my case, I just liked a name that was longer than ABCA would allow. My dog is neutered, so not going for a championship-LOL, and I'm definately not trying to hide anything!

 

That's got to be the strangest reason I've ever heard to register with the AKC. Why not just consider that long name it's "formal" name and the ABC-registered name its call name? But then, I've never seen the point of giving a dog a name you're not going to call it by, whether it's written on a paper somewhere or not.

[Sue R]

No , not really . But this is the first BC I actually purchased and I was trying to register him and found all this out.

I do agility( AKC , USDAA , UKC , etc.. and some obedience and was just wondering if I title this dog , would I have any future problems with the registries and if I was to breed him , (which wont happen) would I have issues . Just want to know my boundaries I guess.

If I was to get 'into' herding seriously , what would happen then ? Would I have problems entering him in any competitions ?

thanks..

USBCHA-sanctioned trials are open to all dogs, registered or not. Sanctioning (or gaining points for eligibility for National Finals) only applies to Open and Nursery classes. All other classes are non-sanctioned by USBCHA but may offer points within regional or local associations (like NEBCA or VBCA) for year-end awards.

 

In order to compete in AKC activities of any kind, I believe your dog must be registered with AKC or have an ILP (or whatever the equivalent is now, and must be neutered). They may now even offer performance classes for non-purebreds. I assume something similar is in place for UKC events, whatever they may be.

 

For groups like USDAA and NADAC, I believe any dog may compete but may need some sort of paperwork, and even mixed-breeds or dogs of totally unknown breeding may compete. There are folks here that can tell you about the requirements for these venues as they are competitors there.

 

If you have any serious plans for your Border Collie, stick with USBCHA/ISDS-style trialling, and find a good trainer who is a successful, Open-level USBCHA trialist, not an AKC "herding" person. JMO. If I were you, I'd avoid AKC entirely, and only register ABCA (if you can - you might not be able to do so since litters are registered, not individual pups). But, what you do and where you compete will be your choice.

 

Best wishes!

[ziggzmom]

No , not really . But this is the first BC I actually purchased and I was trying to register him and found all this out.

I do agility( AKC , USDAA , UKC , etc.. and some obedience and was just wondering if I title this dog , would I have any future problems with the registries and if I was to breed him , (which wont happen) would I have issues . Just want to know my boundaries I guess.

If I was to get 'into' herding seriously , what would happen then ? Would I have problems entering him in any competitions ?

thanks..

 

Hi IPSY,

 

It does sound confusing when you put it like that-LOL! Each organization is seperate, so it shouldn't be a problem. In the past, I had a dog that had obedience titles with AKC and UKC. When I entered an AKC trial I only listed the dogs AKC titles on their entry form, and only the UKC titles on their entry form.

 

Have fun and happy training~

 

Janet

[ziggzmom]

That's got to be the strangest reason I've ever heard to register with the AKC. Why not just consider that long name it's "formal" name and the ABC-registered name its call name? But then, I've never seen the point of giving a dog a name you're not going to call it by, whether it's written on a paper somewhere or not.

 

Hi Eileen,

 

I've been called strange before-LOL! I didn't register with AKC just to give my dog a long name, I registered him with AKC because I compete in obedience(my passion), tracking, agility and rally. His call name is his ABCA registered name.

 

Regards~

 

Janet

[Eileen Stein]

Okay, gotcha. I misunderstood.

[IPSY]

The ABCA cannot prevent the AKC from registering our dogs in any way they want. If we could, we would. If the AKC has a rule that the AKC-registered name must be the same as the ABC-registered name, they simply do not follow it. AKC names are often totally different from the ABC-registered name. The AKC permits names to be up to 36 characters (including spaces) long, and up to 50 if you pay extra. That is why you see names like "Omegamtn Mi Sun Dancer Of Blue Rose," which I came across this week. The ABCA allows up to 14 characters (including spaces).

Did you ask if the parents and/or the pup were AKC registered before you bought the pup? If you really want to avoid AKC, that's how to do it.

Working border collies traditionally do not have formal papered names. The names on paper are the same as the names in real life, except perhaps for a kennel prefix.

That's got to be the strangest reason I've ever heard to register with the AKC. Why not just consider that long name it's "formal" name and the ABC-registered name its call name? But then, I've never seen the point of giving a dog a name you're not going to call it by, whether it's written on a paper somewhere or not.

[/quot

 

I was told the were registered with both registries. It didnt matter in the beginning , but now it does , LOL....

[Sue R]

Live and learn, that's the important thing.

[geonni banner]

This thread aroused my (morbid?) curiosity.

 

This was what the AKC website had to say on the subject(s)... But whether to believe.... that is the question. (italics & bold selections mine)

 

All dog names are subject to AKC approval and must comply with AKC requirements. The person who owns the dog at the time the dog the registration application is submitted to the AKC has the right to name it, unless otherwise noted in a written agreement.

 

Below are AKC guidelines that determine the acceptability of a name.

1. Name choices are limited to (36) thirty-six characters. Spaces between words, apostrophes and hyphens are counted. Note: Effective, February 1, 2008, AKC is testing a pilot program that allows for the registered name of a dog to contain up to (50) fifty characters. An additional $10 fee will be incurred when more than (36) thirty-six characters are chosen.

2. All letters in a dog's name are limited to the standard English alphabet. When registration certificates are printed, all letters are capitalized. Diacritical markings (accent grave, accent acute, umlaut, etc.) are not printed on registration certificates in a dog's name.

3. Registered Kennel Names cannot be included in a dog's name unless the use is authorized by the owner of the name.

4. Roman numerals must not be included at the end of the dog's name. The AKC reserves the right to assign roman numerals for identification purposes. The AKC permits thirty-seven (37) dogs of each breed to be assigned the same name.

5. There are no restrictions on cardinal (one, two, three) and ordinal (first, second, third) numbers.

6. Words and phrases that may not be included in a dog's name:

a. Champion, champ, sieger and any AKC title or show term, either spelled out or abbreviated.

 

b. Obscenities and words derogatory to any race, creed or nationality or transliterations of such words.

 

c. Kennel(s), male, stud, sire, bitch, dam and female.

 

d. Breed names alone

7. An imported dog must be registered with the same name under which it was registered in its country of birth, except for the addition of a registered kennel name.

 

Open Registration

When a new breed is accepted in the American Kennel Club a special type of registration known as Open Registration, is available for a limited time. The American Kennel Club in conjunction with the Parent Club (also known as a national breed club) sets this time frame for the breed.

Eligibility for Open Registration

· In order to be registered under Open Registration, a dog must be born in the United States, or one of it’s possessions or territories. Otherwise, it will have to be submitted with a Foreign Dog Registration Application.

· The owner must be a resident of the United States, or one of it’s possessions or territories.

· The dog must be of a breed eligible for registration in the AKC Stud Book.

· The dog must first be registered with a domestic registry acceptable to the AKC (see below).

· The dog must be registered with the same name that appears on the certificate from the domestic registry.

· The dog must be registered in the same owner(s) name that appears on the certificate from the domestic registry. A co-owner can be added by a transfer after the dog is AKC registered by simply filling out the back of the certificate and sending to AKC with a transfer fee.

· The information on the application must agree with the information on the domestic registry certificate and/or pedigree.

Acceptable Domestic Registries

Individual dogs that are previously registered with one of the following registry organizations (see Special Registry Services for more info on these registries):

· American Border Collie Association

· American International Border Collie Association

· Field Dog Stud Book (All AKC registrable sporting breeds – other than Irish Setters)

· International Foxhunters' Stud Book

· Masters of Foxhounds Association

· National Beagle Club of America

· National Greyhound Association

· North American Sheep Dog Society

· North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association (AKC registrable Sporting Breeds – other than Irish Setters)

· Society for the Perpetuation of the Desert Bred Saluki