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That's a new way of looking at it Deb, thanks. Now I won't have such a knee jerk negative reaction, I hope.

 

 

As I have a visual of someone reaching down, touching their heelers bently mark and saying all cutsie "There's your off switch" :D ugh...as my stomach turns...wish I hadn't asked :rolleyes:

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just a note - Derek Fisher moved to Idaho, so he's no longer an option. Bill Berhow is closer in Zamora. If you want, maybe you could come with me up to the Spencers' sometime in Elk Grove.

 

On a related note there are two local USBCHA trials coming up that both offer good spectator viewing because the trials are run on the hillsides. It might help you to see what the trialling aspect of it is all about and help you to decide if you want to get involved, or not.

 

This coming Friday and Saturday there is a trial near Zamora; this Sunday's trial is near Plymouth. The following Friday thru Sunday there is a trial in Hopland. I think both offer opportunities to buy food and drink that benefit 4-H or FFA or the like. ;-)

 

Check the norcalsheepdog.org website for exact dates and locations.

 

There are also other opportunities for introductions of you and/or your dog to sheep with other local trainers in the north bay such as Joyce Shephard and/or Karen Kollgaard. In addition RESDA is offering quite a good novice mentoring program with involvement right now. See the website www.resda.com for training opportunities/contact info.

 

good luck

 

--Billy

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Well, here's a contrasting viewpoint, for what it's worth.

 

I believe the nearest trainers to you who are worth working with would be Derek Fisher in Pescadero or Suzy Applegate out Sacramento way. That's pretty far if you don't drive. Suzy charges $50 a lesson, I think. That's a lot of money if money's tight.

 

As people have said above, you don't need to commit to working your dog every week, but before you start you should at least plan on some level of commitment, not just go once to see what happens. I always like to point people to Anna's website because she explains things so well. In her words:

 

"Occasionally, I have people who have a herding-breed dog who want to come out and see what their dog will do with stock. They bring their video cameras, and think it will be a fun outing to “go to the country” for the day. But they have absolutely no intention of continuing this activity, even if their dog shows very strong instinct. This is the most unfair and cruel thing they can do to their dog–it’s like taking a child to the front gates of Disneyland, letting them see (from the outside) all of the great things there are inside, and then taking them back to the car and leaving. If you really don’t intend on pursuing herding, even in a hobby sort of way, then do not take your dog to the livestock. Don’t let them turn on."

 

If this is something you really want to do, I'm sure you'll make it happen, but sometimes hanging out on the internet can create a powerful hankering for something you hear other people rave about. In my case, the feeling can be strong enough to make me think I just have to have that thing or experience too, and forget that I already have a pretty good life without whatever it is. As time goes on, I find that I'm spending less money on my border collies yet doing more with them. Agility and herding can both be expensive hobbies, it's true, but there are alternatives that cost little or nothing as well. For example, if you just want to know what the fuss is about, you can learn quite a lot about herding from simply going to trials and watching.

 

I'm not disagreeing with anyone above. Just reminding you of the arguments on the other side, since you said you wanted to hear both sides.

 

If this is something you really want to do, I'm sure you'll make it happen, but sometimes hanging out on the internet can create a powerful hankering for something you hear other people rave about. In my case, the feeling can be strong enough to make me think I just have to have that thing or experience too, and forget that I already have a pretty good life without whatever it is. As time goes on, I find that I'm spending less money on my border collies yet doing more with them. Agility and herding can both be expensive hobbies, it's true, but there are alternatives that cost little or nothing as well. For example, if you just want to know what the fuss is about, you can learn quite a lot about herding from simply going to trials and watching.

 

I'm not disagreeing with anyone above. Just reminding you of the arguments on the other side, since you said you wanted to hear both sides.

 

I hear you loud and clear. This is excellent advice and I appreciate it. Going to a few trials is indeed a great way for me to gather information to help me make my decision. I have time – Sugar is progressing well in her obedience and in repairing the damage done by having a poor start in life. But I would not think of bringing her to sheep until I feel she is well-trained in basic obedience and stable and confident in all sorts on environments.

 

I once worked as a live-in housekeeper/pet care person for a woman who was a computer consultant who traveled quite a bit. That woman owned a male Vizsla with Ch’s in conformation, field-trialing and obedience. The dog was trained and handled to all three by other people. She herself could not do anything with him, including preventing him for menacing the neighbor’s children.

She also owned a six- figure, Olympic-caliber Trakehner event horse. She rode him around in a ring every couple of weeks under the bored gaze of a dressage coach, and the rest of the time he was exercised by the stablehands where she boarded him.

I don’t want to be that person. Nor do I want Sugarfoot to be a dog who goes out a few times a year to "play with the nice sheep."

I have been preparing myself for a major change in lifestyle as I am beginning to get a grip on my agoraphobia, and am pretty fed up with city life and all that it entails. I don’t expect to become a sheep rancher anytime soon, but having spent several months living out in the country near Sebastopol, CA a year or so ago, I know that the city phase of my life is drawing to a close.

Now for a big set of “ifs.” If I take Sugar to sheep and she has talent, (I assume it would take awhile to assess the extent of that,) I would like to develop and use it in any way that I can. If that means doing herding or trialing on a hobby basis, so be it. If I can find a way for her to earn her keep as a part-time or full-time sheepdog so much the better.

 

It’s clear to me that this is the kind of thing that must be done with dedication and hard work if it is to be done well. This is as much about me as it is about her. I have gotten deep into art photography and it’s starting to make a little money for me. But I can do that anywhere. I grew up with livestock, and can make myself useful in that setting, so I have confidence that I can make the herding “thing” work if the Dog Gods have given me a talented partner.

 

 

Ok, folks this is your signal to begin flinging wet blankets! I’m ready for ‘em! :rolleyes: Thanks so much to everyone for all your info, advice and encouragement. The Border Collie Boards are the best! I’m getting an education and loving it!

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So here is question, if Sugar does not have the talent would you still want to pursue learning how to handle and train stockdogs?

 

With what I have learned so far, the answer is yes. But I do need to learn more about exactly what the commitment entails, and get experience of seeing dogs working - trials, and whatever else I can dig up. It is also possible that if she is cut out for it and I don't have what it takes that I might be faced with the choice to place her in a working environment or to keep her as a pet.

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With what I have learned so far, the answer is yes. But I do need to learn more about exactly what the commitment entails, and get experience of seeing dogs working - trials, and whatever else I can dig up. It is also possible that if she is cut out for it and I don't have what it takes that I might be faced with the choice to place her in a working environment or to keep her as a pet.

 

 

Then I would suggest being in a hurry to introduce her, go and find as much information as you can, see if you can find a trainer that will work with you possibly allowing you to handle expirenced dogs so that you can begin to learn what it is that you will need to teach your dog. Also, the trainer can help you to learn what you are looking for both in the individual dog ability wise and also as to how a dog should be used to properly handle livestock.

 

This approach could also help you determine as to whether or not you can be a stock dog trainer. I would not worry about whether or not Sugar is cut out for stock work, from what you have posted she is cut out to be a great companion for you, ability to handle livestock should not change that.

 

In many cases pursing stockdog training will require a lifestyle change, you may find that you will need to change your entire training approach and expectation level of both you and your dog.

 

Go out and have fun but enter in with your eyes wide open, there is alot to see.

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...It is also possible that if she is cut out for it and I don't have what it takes that I might be faced with the choice to place her in a working environment or to keep her as a pet.

Um, I think this is a little over-the-top. If Sugarfoot does turn out to have "what it takes", it doesn't mean that she will be miserable being a pet and that you would have to place her in a working environment. Many dogs, including my Open sheep dog, live perfectly content lives as pets, and work sheep when time permits. Lou probably trials more than he works, and he doesn't exhibit any weird displacement behaviours in between working opportunities. Oh, and Lou was born and raised in a working environment, and he spent his first 2 years in that rural setting, working and trialing. For the last 4 years, he has been living in a condo in the heart of a major metropolitan centre. We trial 10-12 times a year, and I try to work him a couple times a month as well. But for the other 95% of his life, he is a pet. A spoiled, content, adored pet.

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I think Kristi makes very valid points. My Celt may have times of the year when he's working once or twice, every day, and other times where he has no work for weeks on end. He's always ready to go if I mention "cows" or pick up the stock stick, but he's a very happy dog as a pet, ball chaser, and walking companion when he's not got work to do.

 

The nice thing about many of these dogs is while stockwork is their absolute favorite occupation, they can be quite happy being your companion in an active, enjoyable lifestyle. Just don't say the word "sheep" when you are not taking your dog to sheep, or you might get her hopes up for nothing!

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Then I would suggest being in a hurry to introduce her, go and find as much information as you can, see if you can find a trainer that will work with you possibly allowing you to handle expirenced dogs so that you can begin to learn what it is that you will need to teach your dog. Also, the trainer can help you to learn what you are looking for both in the individual dog ability wise and also as to how a dog should be used to properly handle livestock.

 

This approach could also help you determine as to whether or not you can be a stock dog trainer. I would not worry about whether or not Sugar is cut out for stock work, from what you have posted she is cut out to be a great companion for you, ability to handle livestock should not change that.

 

In many cases pursing stockdog training will require a lifestyle change, you may find that you will need to change your entire training approach and expectation level of both you and your dog.

 

Go out and have fun but enter in with your eyes wide open, there is alot to see.

 

Would you recommend starting "cold," or is there reading/ video study that I should do to familiarize myself with "herdspeak" and basic principles? I have been eying this DVD tutorial. Anyone seen/used it?

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Um, I think this is a little over-the-top. If Sugarfoot does turn out to have "what it takes", it doesn't mean that she will be miserable being a pet and that you would have to place her in a working environment. Many dogs, including my Open sheep dog, live perfectly content lives as pets, and work sheep when time permits. Lou probably trials more than he works, and he doesn't exhibit any weird displacement behaviours in between working opportunities. Oh, and Lou was born and raised in a working environment, and he spent his first 2 years in that rural setting, working and trialing. For the last 4 years, he has been living in a condo in the heart of a major metropolitan centre. We trial 10-12 times a year, and I try to work him a couple times a month as well. But for the other 95% of his life, he is a pet. A spoiled, content, adored pet.

 

This is reassuring re: the Sugar's peace of mind. I love this dog. I'm closer to her than I've been to any dog in a long time. My getting her to begin with was almost an "occult" set of circumstances/experiences. Normally when I buy or adopt a dog/puppy it's a measured and considered process. But I took one look at Sugarfoot on the rescue website and somehow knew she was my dog. There were people with well-bred and well socialized puppies ready to have me take one of their dogs, but I called them and told them to take me off their lists. As much "baggage" as this girl had when I took her in, I have never been even momentarily sorry for my choice. She's some dog!

 

But then I had a niggling worry. What if she does really blossom in stock work? What if it changes her in ways that make her life as a "hobby herder" insufficient. People seem divided in their opinions on this topic. I keep remembering that Trakehner in a rented loose-box. All that potential wasted, and he bored and half-sour all the time.

 

Maybe I should just quit worrying about it. If she was meant to be with me as I have been so certain, then it will likely turn out fine.

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Would you recommend starting "cold," or is there reading/ video study that I should do to familiarize myself with "herdspeak" and basic principles? I have been eying this DVD tutorial. Anyone seen/used it?

 

 

IMO, I would start by following Billy's advice:

This coming Friday and Saturday there is a trial near Zamora; this Sunday's trial is near Plymouth. The following Friday thru Sunday there is a trial in Hopland. I think both offer opportunities to buy food and drink that benefit 4-H or FFA or the like. ;-)

 

Check the norcalsheepdog.org website for exact dates and locations.

 

There are also other opportunities for introductions of you and/or your dog to sheep with other local trainers in the north bay such as Joyce Shephard and/or Karen Kollgaard. In addition RESDA is offering quite a good novice mentoring program with involvement right now. See the website www.resda.com for training opportunities/contact info.

 

That will give you a starting point to build from and you can get suggested material from them, that way you will have a little better chance of identifing something that is erronous. Plan on a pretty steep learning curve, you may read a book or watch a video in the next month and think you understand what is going on, then pull it back out in a year or two and you realize that you didn't have clue prevously and now understand what was being shown or taught.

 

Deb

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IMO, I would start by following Billy's advice:

That will give you a starting point to build from and you can get suggested material from them, that way you will have a little better chance of identifing something that is erronous. Plan on a pretty steep learning curve, you may read a book or watch a video in the next month and think you understand what is going on, then pull it back out in a year or two and you realize that you didn't have clue prevously and now understand what was being shown or taught.

 

Deb

 

Right! Good, I'll start trying to coordinate trips to trials and locating a trainer within striking distance. Thanks ever so much to everybody who answered this thread. I'm going to cut and paste the whole thing into a Word file tomorrow. But now, having just backed my entire computer file system to CD, (18 discs) I'm pooped! Time to take Sugar out for a bit, and sleep on all this info.

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Disclaimer: I may not know what I'm talking about here, so feel free to ignore anything you like.

 

If I can find a way for her to earn her keep as a part-time or full-time sheepdog so much the better.

I think this is a hugely unrealistic expectation for you at this point. There are many talented dogs associated with board members here, dogs who have years of training under their collars, and I would venture to guess that the number who earn their keep, in the sense of generating money for their owner, is vanishingly small. Many working dogs do invaluable work for their owners, and in that sense they definitely earn their keep, but they are not generating cash (other than an occasional trial win or the infrequent sale of offspring). It is far more likely that a herding career for you and Sugar will be a significant drain on your financial coffers than the other way around.

 

Would you recommend starting "cold," or is there reading/ video study that I should do to familiarize myself with "herdspeak" and basic principles?

You could start by reading every article on Littlehats

 

What if she does really blossom in stock work? What if it changes her in ways that make her life as a "hobby herder" insufficient. .

As you yourself suggested earlier, by the time you reach the "really blossom" point, you will have many, many hours and many dollars invested in both of your herding educations. As Danielle said, during that time your relationship with your dog will evolve as well. If you start to grow apart from each other (i.e. Sugar's interest in herding becomes greater than you are willing or able to satisfy), you will have plenty of opportunity for course correction before Sugar becomes a dog who cannot be happy fitting into your lifestyle (if indeed such a thing ever happens - as Kristi said, it is pretty unlikely).

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Disclaimer: I may not know what I'm talking about here, so feel free to ignore anything you like.

 

I think this is a hugely unrealistic expectation for you at this point. There are many talented dogs associated with board members here, dogs who have years of training under their collars, and I would venture to guess that the number who earn their keep, in the sense of generating money for their owner, is vanishingly small. Many working dogs do invaluable work for their owners, and in that sense they definitely earn their keep, but they are not generating cash (other than an occasional trial win or the infrequent sale of offspring). It is far more likely that a herding career for you and Sugar will be a significant drain on your financial coffers than the other way around.

 

Oh yikes! I didn't mean make MONEY at it! As you say, I never imagined that there would be more sheep people looking for "dogs for hire," than dogs looking for "sheep time." And even if there were a long list of such openings, I would undoubtedly be at the bottom of it for years to come! LOL. No, "earning her keep" is just an expression I grew up with, meaning to be entertaining, helpful, etc.

 

You could start by reading every article on Littlehats

 

10-4

 

As you yourself suggested earlier, by the time you reach the "really blossom" point, you will have many, many hours and many dollars invested in both of your herding educations. As Danielle said, during that time your relationship with your dog will evolve as well. If you start to grow apart from each other (i.e. Sugar's interest in herding becomes greater than you are willing or able to satisfy), you will have plenty of opportunity for course correction before Sugar becomes a dog who cannot be happy fitting into your lifestyle (if indeed such a thing ever happens - as Kristi said, it is pretty unlikely).

 

Yup, I think I've really got that Sugar will be unlikely to suddenly turn into "Robo-herder" and lie about yearning for sheep. :rolleyes:

 

Thanks again - this is all so helpful! Today I will try and figure out the closest reachable trial to go in the near future to to "get my feet wet." (As a spectator) BTW, is there an etiquette on whether spectators can bring their dogs along to these things? I don't want to start off on the wrong foot!

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Today I will try and figure out the closest reachable trial to go in the near future to to "get my feet wet." (As a spectator) BTW, is there an etiquette on whether spectators can bring their dogs along to these things? I don't want to start off on the wrong foot!

 

All but one of the trials I've attended have been welcoming to well-behaved spectator dogs. They should be removed (crated, or put in the car) if they bark, or stare too intently at the sheep - the action gets quite close to the audience at times.

 

Check http://www.norcalsheepdog.org/events/ for events.

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BTW, is there an etiquette on whether spectators can bring their dogs along to these things?

 

This is just my personal suggestions, other will have others based on their expirences, I would leave her home or if you had to take her, take a crate and leave her crated by the car simular to how many of the other dogs competing will be contained, you may need to park away from the action in case she get's to barking and carrying on.

 

Also, observe how the other handlers are interacting with their dogs and how the dogs are conducting themselves both on and off leash. If you feel that Sugar will conduct herself in the same manner bring her out on leash, but keep her completely out of the view of the sheep. At our trials if there is seating or bleachers it is an unspoken rule that dogs are not allowed in the area between the work area and the spectators, unknowing dog owners will be asked to remove their dogs, unfortunately it is usually after they effected the sheep. Also, be sure you keep tract of your dog so that her attention is on you and not looking to others, the guys in our area give a pretty good what for to someone whose dog noses into other people's business. But...we might just have some grumpy old men in our midst :rolleyes:

 

When you decide which trial you are going to, make contact with the contact person for the trial, ask them if they can help you to get in touch with someone at the trial that would be willing to explain things to you and see if you can arrange a meeting place and time. This will help to get your foot in the door so that you don't feel like you are on the outside looking in.

 

Deb

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Looks like the soonest one I can get transport to is this one. Feb 12-15, Slaven’s Zamora Hills SDT. :rolleyes: Oh well, I can really study hard and make a contact for helping me out with what-all to do and not do, and how to interpret what I'm seeing. Oh boy! I'm excited already! Never mind Christmas... I'm going to a sheepdog trial! yippie! :D

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Glad you started this thread. I have been wondering about some of these things myself.

 

I attended my first trail without my pup and I was very glad I did it this way. I had all the time in the world to observe and a number of people were very happy to talk me through people's tests and explain things to me. I had a great day and learned a lot.

 

Enjoy.

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I'm going to a sheepdog trial! yippie! :rolleyes:

 

Be careful!! The first trial I went to, I got asked if I'd like to go up and see the pen. 3 hours later, I'm still in the pen sorting sheep :D I met some great people, and now get called to volunteer for the local trials. The last trial I was at, I found out about a great pup for sale, and now have 3 dogs. This is what can happen by going to "watch a trial" -lol

Have a great time!

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One more thing... And no fair howling with laughter - at least where I can hear it! :rolleyes:

 

On the "Littlehats" webpages I came across this, which prompted a question I was not able to find an answer to on the site - not even using the search function.

 

USBCHA/ISDS-style trials are much more demanding than anything you'll find in AKC and AHBA. And demanding trials help us determine what we should use as breeding stock in order to ensure that the border collie remains the premier herding dog in the world.

 

OK, that sounds good, and it appears, though it is not stated outright, that un-papered dogs are eligible for competition - they talk about using rescue dogs. But what about spayed or neutered dogs? My bitch is spayed.

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OK, that sounds good, and it appears, though it is not stated outright, that un-papered dogs are eligible for competition - they talk about using rescue dogs. But what about spayed or neutered dogs? My bitch is spayed

 

 

You can enter anything you want even any breed, but you want to be sure that you have control of your dog and that you and your dog are capable of doing the work safely.

 

Deb

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One more thing... And no fair howling with laughter - at least where I can hear it! :rolleyes:

 

On the "Littlehats" webpages I came across this, which prompted a question I was not able to find an answer to on the site - not even using the search function.

 

USBCHA/ISDS-style trials are much more demanding than anything you'll find in AKC and AHBA. And demanding trials help us determine what we should use as breeding stock in order to ensure that the border collie remains the premier herding dog in the world.

 

OK, that sounds good, and it appears, though it is not stated outright, that un-papered dogs are eligible for competition - they talk about using rescue dogs. But what about spayed or neutered dogs? My bitch is spayed.

 

Spayed and neutered dogs are welcome to compete. It wouldn't make sense to exclude them. You can learn a lot about the quality of dog a breeding cross produces -- and whether the breeding should be repeated or not -- by seeing the offspring trialed, whether or not those offspring have been neutered.

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Looks like the soonest one I can get transport to is this one. Feb 12-15, Slaven’s Zamora Hills SDT.

Good choice. I'm pretty sure there will be at least a handful of BC board members there, so when the time gets closer you might post a request to see if any board members going are wlling to act as a mentor for you.

 

If you need a break from poring over Little Hats, another great (and free) resource is this fantastic series of videos of board member Denise Wall training her young dog May. Also check out the other videos in the Training & Trialing Videos section near the top of this board.

 

And you might see what's in your local library. I was surprised to discover that mine had a copy of Vergil Holland's "Herding Dogs: Progressive Training."

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