To sheep,

[geonni banner]

That IS the question...

 

So I’d like the thoughts of anyone who’s having the same quandary, or to hear from anyone who has decided one way or the other… What happened?

 

Should I take my city dog to sheep? And if I do, and she shows talent, what then? Will her life be a sucking void if she can’t do herding more than, say, once a month?

 

I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy it, but I want to do - or not do, what's best for the dog. I don't have much money, but I don't have much overhead either.

 

I’m on disability (not in a wheelchair – I can get around fine on my pins) but I don’t know how often I could afford to take her. I’m also concerned about whether I’d be able to afford it on disability. I do get some income from my photography/ graphic arts biz, and the amount is gradually increasing.

 

It's either Herding or Agility, and frankly herding looks better to me from this distance.

[Ooky]

Just my 2 cents -

 

Especially for us city-hobby folk, the sheep have to come first. They are alive and deserve respect. In my mind, this means if your dog is the type that is going to mistreat sheep, then there is no reason to harass them for your and her fun. Is she a BC mix or purebred? I only ask because in one of the pics I saw of her she looked like she could have some sort of husky in her? (Could be TOTALLY of base here, not meant to be an insult if I am wrong which I very well could be). If so, I'd be a bit nervous about her in a pen.

 

But, since you allow she may or may not have talent (which can only be seen on sheep), if she has some no I don't think it's cruel to not take her very often - she just won't progress very fast. From what I've learned with Odin's extended hiatus (soon to be ended, BTW, yay!!), he is fine without the sheep because ime unlike humans, dogs are happy for what they have. They are not unhappy for what they aren't getting. Odin has not been acting out or acting sad or anything like that - he is still his same happy self. I know the first time we go back to lessons he will light up like nothing else, but in the meantime, he is seemingly just as fulfilled in his city life as he was when we were going every week or even more often - and he's a happy guy in the city.

[geonni banner]

Of course I don't want my dog mauling innocent sheep for fun... that's what stuffies are for! But seriously, I am concerned from watching dogs put to sheep the first time, running in and grabbing a sheep by the leg. I saw a Cesar Milan video on You Tube where he took a Bouvier, and later a Rottweiler (?!) in to let them "fulfill their instincual drive." I grew up in cattle country and I can tell you what happened to dogs that showed up to fulfill their instinctual drive - and it wasn't pretty. I wondered about the sheep in that video. What a stressful life! Day after day some bounding, slobbering buckethead of a dog is turned loose on them. Sheesh!

 

I would of course hire a trainer, and according to his direction either put her on a long-line or not. In any case I would trust his evaluation and if he said she had promise, well and good - but I'm not taking her back if she only sees "mutton" and not a job.

 

I do think she is all BC. She certainly acts like one. A number of folk on these boards have said she looked like a BC to them and she's a dead ringer for 2 dogs of known parentage that whose pictures grace these pages. Here's a couple more of pics of her. She's 16 mos old now. 14 mos in the last pic.

[hsnrs]

It is expensive to go with a trainer but well worth the money if you enjoy it. Obviously you don't want to hurt the sheep or get your dog injured either.

[sweet_ceana]

We make the treck from the city out to sheep about once a month. Our three love it and their lives are not miserable without sheep. We play frisbee at home, work on tricks, and practice back yard agility... but nothing compares to sheep. The nifty part is, even though they haven't seen sheep for a month, the dogs improve each time. (Minus Sita, she has only seen sheep once and frolicked behind them sniffing rear ends.)

 

My dogs may not see sheep very often, but they think about their lessons when we aren't there. They don't lament over the sheep, but work through what worked and what didn't.

[juliepoudrier]

A good trainer will protect his/her sheep. That's not to say there won't ever be gripping or chasing, but a good trainer will minimize this. A good trainer will have sheep that are suitable for beginner dogs, which means generally they remain calm and will move toward the human (making it easier to protect them) when the dog starts working them. I haven't seen the Cesar Milan video obviously, but I'd have to wonder about his respect/empathy for the livestock if he was letting dogs essentially maul them.

 

I see no harm in taking your dog to sheep and seeing if she's interested. If you are careful about selecting who you go to, it can be a very positive experience. If you can go for lessons only on a limited basis, your dog won't pine for the sheep during the times in between. I've seen dogs who go to a Jack Knox clinic maybe once a year and that's their only exposure to sheep. They still manage to improve each time, and their owners don't report any issues about not seeing sheep the rest of the year. As someone else noted, your progress will just be slower if you can't get out as often.

 

I see you are in California, but I don't know where you are in relation to some of our CA board members. Perhaps PM Anna (stockdogranch) and see if she can recommend someone within reasonable driving distance of you.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

Ditto Julie and Sweet Ceana. Depending on our schedules (mine and the trainer), we can only get out to work stock anywhere from 1-3 times a month. And there have been a couple of times due to traveling or unforeseen circumstances, that it's been actually a couple of months between lessons. My dogs don't show any pining away, moping or whatnot, during the down times. As already mentioned, they *easily* pick right up where they leave off. It's pretty amazing to even see improvements after having such a long time off!

 

Oh, and my Jack is a BC mix. He has never been aggressive nor much of a gripper. Don't assume that if you have a mix (which I don't think you do, BTW), that the dog is going to have visions of leg of lamb dancing before her eyes! Having a mix does not guarantee that. It would mean that there is not as much talent to work with (I know this and deal), but if you have a trainer willing to work with you, and the sheep are treated respectfully, why not? We go to a trainer who has from day one protected her sheep, and taught us nothing but a healthy respect for them. She understands my dogs, their strengths and limitations and is wonderful to work with.

 

Soooo, my long drawn out advice is to at least check it out. If you both enjoy it, you can find a good trainer to work with, and it's affordable, why not give it a try?

 

**Edited to fix some ugly grammar, spelling, etc.

[Ooky]

Oh geez, I reread my message from last night and it came off sounding totally different than how I meant it!

 

One, I love huskies - and used to have one. But they scare me around large animals and livestock, based on the one I had and the 10 or so I've known. They seem to have pretty high prey drives - make that get reactive and go-for-the-kill drives. Of course this is only my personal experience, many of you out there may have huskies who "lie down with the lambs"!

 

Two, I totally accept Sugar could be pure BC (and btw she is super pretty!) I recognized a bit of my Calvin in her face but I am not good at breed-guessing at all.

 

Three, I fully accept a bc mix could actually be way better than a purpose-bred BC! Sure, the chances of that are not good, but everyone knows there are duds in purpose-bred litters and I'm sure there are also the opposite in mixes.

 

The reason my first paragraph sounded so warning-based is that I've not been around very long, but I have already seen (very few) people with dogs that I don't think should keep coming back to sheep, yet they do it because their dog "loves it". These city people seem to not see the sheep as beings worthy of respect, I think because they equate it to a hobby like agility - something their dog loves to do. Well, my husky Calvin would have "loved" to be allowed to run roughshod chasing cows all over my aunt's farm, but no one would have thought that was wise.

 

Now I hve a green dog, and fully realize he doesn't treat sheep nearly as well as an open trial dog would, because he's learning. So there is a medium ground somewhere, where you use sheep to train a dog. And I also fully agree you will never know what you've got until you try. And trying is fun! Odin gripped inappropriately his first time out, I think a lot of dogs with interest do. He doesn't anymore, though, and if he had kept doing it, then I wouldn't have kept bringing him back - because I'm not a sheep rancher trying to work with what I have to do a job, I'm someone borrowing someone else's sheep for hobby lessons.

 

As for the Cesar episode, let me just say I may be a bit cautious because that is nothing compared to what I've seen. I have seen a well-bred dog with several experienced handlers around actually KILL a sheep. And no, it was not mauled to death. Essentially, it was an extremely unlucky, unfortunate situation where a sheep got separated due to some broken fencing. People didn't realize fast enough where it was. The dog tried to round the errant sheep back up to the herd (not in a terrible, out of control chasey way, either - but this dog had POWER) and the sheep, because it was separated, PANICKED. The handler stopped her dog after only a few seconds of it trying to just collect the other sheep but it wasn't soon enough - the sheep ran straight into a metal gate and broke its neck. This made me see how this training is NOTHING like agility or any other dog activity. It is a real life and death situation, and things can get very bad very fast. So, my concern lately has been for safety for the sheep 1st (and by extension, mine and my dog's safety as well). I think this situation was even more sobering than the Cesar show because anyone can see when a dog has absolutely no business being around livestock (or at least, they SHOULD be able to). But even when the dogs do, it is a very, very serious business!

 

Hope this clears up what I meant by that first paragraph! Take her out a few times and see what you have! And don't worry about what you are not giving her if you don't go very often, unless like the rest of us the bug bites YOU, and you just want to be out more often as well

[geonni banner]

Oh geez, I reread my message from last night and it came off sounding totally different than how I meant it!

 

One, I love huskies - and used to have one. But they scare me around large animals and livestock, based on the one I had and the 10 or so I've known. They seem to have pretty high prey drives - make that get reactive and go-for-the-kill drives. Of course this is only my personal experience, many of you out there may have huskies who "lie down with the lambs"!

 

Two, I totally accept Sugar could be pure BC (and btw she is super pretty!) I recognized a bit of my Calvin in her face but I am not good at breed-guessing at all.

 

Three, I fully accept a bc mix could actually be way better than a purpose-bred BC! Sure, the chances of that are not good, but everyone knows there are duds in purpose-bred litters and I'm sure there are also the opposite in mixes.

 

The reason my first paragraph sounded so warning-based is that I've not been around very long, but I have already seen (very few) people with dogs that I don't think should keep coming back to sheep, yet they do it because their dog "loves it". These city people seem to not see the sheep as beings worthy of respect, I think because they equate it to a hobby like agility - something their dog loves to do. Well, my husky Calvin would have "loved" to be allowed to run roughshod chasing cows all over my aunt's farm, but no one would have thought that was wise.

 

Now I hve a green dog, and fully realize he doesn't treat sheep nearly as well as an open trial dog would, because he's learning. So there is a medium ground somewhere, where you use sheep to train a dog. And I also fully agree you will never know what you've got until you try. And trying is fun! Odin gripped inappropriately his first time out, I think a lot of dogs with interest do. He doesn't anymore, though, and if he had kept doing it, then I wouldn't have kept bringing him back - because I'm not a sheep rancher trying to work with what I have to do a job, I'm someone borrowing someone else's sheep for hobby lessons.

 

As for the Cesar episode, let me just say I may be a bit cautious because that is nothing compared to what I've seen. I have seen a well-bred dog with several experienced handlers around actually KILL a sheep. And no, it was not mauled to death. Essentially, it was an extremely unlucky, unfortunate situation where a sheep got separated due to some broken fencing. People didn't realize fast enough where it was. The dog tried to round the errant sheep back up to the herd (not in a terrible, out of control chasey way, either - but this dog had POWER) and the sheep, because it was separated, PANICKED. The handler stopped her dog after only a few seconds of it trying to just collect the other sheep but it wasn't soon enough - the sheep ran straight into a metal gate and broke its neck. This made me see how this training is NOTHING like agility or any other dog activity. It is a real life and death situation, and things can get very bad very fast. So, my concern lately has been for safety for the sheep 1st (and by extension, mine and my dog's safety as well). I think this situation was even more sobering than the Cesar show because anyone can see when a dog has absolutely no business being around livestock (or at least, they SHOULD be able to). But even when the dogs do, it is a very, very serious business!

 

Hope this clears up what I meant by that first paragraph! Take her out a few times and see what you have! And don't worry about what you are not giving her if you don't go very often, unless like the rest of us the bug bites YOU, and you just want to be out more often as well

 

 

That "herding bug" is crawling up my arm... It hasn't bitten yet, but it has this look in its eye. I fear the worst...

 

As for sheep, I've always had a soft spot for the silly asses, and I'm particularly fond of Scottish Blackface Sheep. I would never tolerate livestock of any kind being chivvied, chased, chomped or frightened. I spent several of my formative years on a quarter-section chicken farm and grain producing farm in Texas, and we boarded cattle and horses on our maize fields every winter. I had a Collie then, my first, (a Lassie Collie) and he would never have dreamed of fooling with the livestock. The thought behind this was not so much to avoid upsetting the animals, but more about not damaging valuable property. I see it both ways. I also learned, as you said, how easy it is to damage or kill livestock.

 

I am as interested in taking Sugarfoot (what a name... I can just imagine directing a stock dog with THAT mouthful! Working on "Bell" as another name that she will respond to - she seems to like it.) to sheep for my own satisfaction as much as hers. I do miss living in the country. Problem is that my disability poses logistical problems for me in relation to country life. First one - I don't drive.

 

Thanks for your input both times. I really need dialog on this issue!

[Chesney's Girl]

I saw a Cesar Milan video on You Tube where he took a Bouvier, and later a Rottweiler (?!) in to let them "fulfill their instincual drive."

 

I know the "trainer" they went to on that show. What a joke of an example as to what real work is.

 

As someone who lives in suburbia, I would say absolutely take your dog out to work, even if it's only once a month. You can accomplish much more through stock work than just moving sheep around and teaching your dog to work them. The relationship with you and your dog changes along with your dogs attitude.

[geonni banner]

I know the "trainer" they went to on that show. What a joke of an example as to what real work is.

 

As someone who lives in suburbia, I would say absolutely take your dog out to work, even if it's only once a month. You can accomplish much more through stock work than just moving sheep around and teaching your dog to work them. The relationship with you and your dog changes along with your dogs attitude.

 

That I can well believe!

On that farm in Texas I mentioned they used to move the cows from one place to another from time to time. I was about 11-12, and they would let me tag along on a neighbor’s 20-some-odd year old buckskin QH/ grade cross. That horse was usually semi-comatose, but when he saw those cows the transformation was nothing short of miraculous. His head came up, his ears stood up so straight they nearly touched, and he got bunchy and nervy like a cat. Woe betide the old heifer that tried to go her own way! Off he would go on his own initiative and I would just have to sit deep and try to keep up! It was amazing. But by the time we closed the gate on the cows he’d start to shut down and he'd soon be the barn sour old stick that we all knew again.

I sort of imagine a similar transformation taking place when my dog is introduced to sheep. Maybe she won’t even care – but I kinda don’t think so…

[desertranger]

Jin's been introduced to sheep and does show an instinct for it. Not so driven as to make the sheep mad. A couple of friends said I shoud train him on duck and geese to keep the fairways and airport clear of them. As for missing sheep as long as they're working they don't care if it's a bottle full of bubbles or sheep.

[Alaska]

Well, here's a contrasting viewpoint, for what it's worth.

 

I believe the nearest trainers to you who are worth working with would be Derek Fisher in Pescadero or Suzy Applegate out Sacramento way. That's pretty far if you don't drive. Suzy charges $50 a lesson, I think. That's a lot of money if money's tight.

 

As people have said above, you don't need to commit to working your dog every week, but before you start you should at least plan on some level of commitment, not just go once to see what happens. I always like to point people to Anna's website because she explains things so well. In her words:

 

"Occasionally, I have people who have a herding-breed dog who want to come out and see what their dog will do with stock. They bring their video cameras, and think it will be a fun outing to “go to the country” for the day. But they have absolutely no intention of continuing this activity, even if their dog shows very strong instinct. This is the most unfair and cruel thing they can do to their dog–it’s like taking a child to the front gates of Disneyland, letting them see (from the outside) all of the great things there are inside, and then taking them back to the car and leaving. If you really don’t intend on pursuing herding, even in a hobby sort of way, then do not take your dog to the livestock. Don’t let them turn on."

 

If this is something you really want to do, I'm sure you'll make it happen, but sometimes hanging out on the internet can create a powerful hankering for something you hear other people rave about. In my case, the feeling can be strong enough to make me think I just have to have that thing or experience too, and forget that I already have a pretty good life without whatever it is. As time goes on, I find that I'm spending less money on my border collies yet doing more with them. Agility and herding can both be expensive hobbies, it's true, but there are alternatives that cost little or nothing as well. For example, if you just want to know what the fuss is about, you can learn quite a lot about herding from simply going to trials and watching.

 

I'm not disagreeing with anyone above. Just reminding you of the arguments on the other side, since you said you wanted to hear both sides.

[sluj]

I believe the nearest trainers to you who are worth working with would be Derek Fisher in Pescadero or Suzy Applegate out Sacramento way. That's pretty far if you don't drive. Suzy charges $50 a lesson, I think. That's a lot of money if money's tight.

 

just a note - Derek Fisher moved to Idaho, so he's no longer an option. Bill Berhow is closer in Zamora. If you want, maybe you could come with me up to the Spencers' sometime in Elk Grove.

[Blackdawgs]

As another viewpoint, I live in the burbs. I had origionally obtained my rescue Border Collie for agility, but she has little interest and her hypervigilence and reactivity would make agility trials very difficult and stressful for her.

 

I took her to a few herding clinics and was told that she had the right stuff. I eventually found a local-lish trainer, but only went twice a month because the person was godawful expensive. My dog got more and more turned on. I now feel like the herding has increased her preditory behavior and motor patterns. To the point, where I had to pull my dog out of a class because I didn't like how she was looking at the toy dogs. At all.

 

I recently run into a woman, who had told me that an introduction to sheep has increased preditory behaviors in her German Shepherd and now it's wanting to chase livestock all the time.

 

At our first clinic, the clinician commented that agility people frequently bring dogs to clinics to see what happans and they wind up unleashing instinct that is better off staying buried. I now understand what he meant.

 

We recently found a guy who rents sheep and is only 30 minutes away, so we can now go weekly. My dog is by no means miserable in between sessions and there have been some very positive changes in her behavior since we started herding--she is more responsive to me and more willing to work with me as a team mate. This is a dog that had been picked up as a stray by the local animal shelter and it is pretty obvious that she was allowed to entertain herself for the first 1.5-2 years of her life.

 

But, I now don't trust her for a nanosecond around small mammals and I'm sure that she would chase livestock, if given the opportunity.

 

So, I would carefully consider the ramifications of unleashing the sleeping giant, if it turned out that your dog has a lot of buried instinct.

[kelpiegirl]

Regarding turning on the predatory instinct- it's always been there, and would probably have been turned on anyway. Sheep work requires obedience, basically first and foremost. That in and of itself should get you a dog who "joins up" with you, and yearns to listen, and the reward is working, not chasing the sheep.

 

 

I don't agree with Anna's assertion about exposing dogs to sheep, knowing that they won't continue. I do know that dogs have memory, but they also live in the now, and they don't, I can assure you go to bed crying every night that they can't work sheep.

 

If you keep your dog occupied, both mentally and physically, then you should not have a dog that chases livestock (your fault anyway), and a dog that is happily adjusted to a life without sheep.

 

Many of us started our time working sheep on a bit of a lark, and have become entrenched. Many have not. I say take a lesson with someone good, and go from there.

[Mark Billadeau]

IMHO

 

Training an inexperienced dog for working livestock is stressful (and possibly deadly) for the livestock. We accept this and try to minimize the stresses knowing that the trained dog will allow us to manage livestock with less effort and probably less stress than without a trained dog.

 

If you are not bringing your dog to livestock often enough for it (and you) to progress you are continuing to stress the livestock with no future benefit for the livestock. Let's not forget that training a livestock dog is supposed to be about the livestock not about us or the dogs.

 

Mark (trying not to forget)

[kajarrel]

1) I agree with you, Mark, 100% but also realize that most people have moved away from this perspective.

 

2) Regarding a dog chasing small animals, stock, etc. once it's been exposed to stock -- this is just a manifestation of #1. A dog that cannot be trusted not to chase animals would be absolutely worthless to most farmers. Similarly for a dog/handler that hassles/mishandles the stock potentially causing miscarriages, lower fertility, injuries, etc. The dog is supposed to help and to decrease, not increase, work.

 

The original question is a good one (as worthy of our consideration as the "breeding for work issue", IMHO) but I'm not really sure what my answer is anymore.

 

Kim

[kelpiegirl]

Wouldn't #2 be the trainer's fault? Maybe I have been lucky, but I have found that trainers that I have gone to DO protect their sheep, first and foremost. I have never worked with a trainer who allows a dog to run amuk.

 

1) I agree with you, Mark, 100% but also realize that most people have moved away from this perspective.

 

2) Regarding a dog chasing small animals, stock, etc. once it's been exposed to stock -- this is just a manifestation of #1. A dog that cannot be trusted not to chase animals would be absolutely worthless to most farmers. Similarly for a dog/handler that hassles/mishandles the stock potentially causing miscarriages, lower fertility, injuries, etc. The dog is supposed to help and to decrease, not increase, work.

 

The original question is a good one (as worthy of our consideration as the "breeding for work issue", IMHO) but I'm not really sure what my answer is anymore.

 

Kim

[kajarrel]

The posts were referring to their dogs chasing small mammals and reacting to stock after being exposed to sheep. I would not say that this is the trainer's fault. It's due to an attitude that dogs need to do "what comes naturally" without an understanding of why they do what they do.

 

They don't need to do this and, indeed, a well bred dog (from a real "use" perspective) would have an off switch (as "we" like to call it here).

 

Kim

[kelpiegirl]

"Should I take my city dog to sheep? And if I do, and she shows talent, what then? Will her life be a sucking void if she can’t do herding more than, say, once a month?"

 

That was the initial question...

 

Of COURSE chasing small animals is not the trainer's fault

Allowing a dog to chase sheep is.

 

Um, that "off switch" term, I have to say, annoys me.

 

The posts were referring to their dogs chasing small mammals and reacting to stock after being exposed to sheep. I would not say that this is the trainer's fault. It's due to an attitude that dogs need to do "what comes naturally" without an understanding of why they do what they do.

 

They don't need to do this and, indeed, a well bred dog (from a real "use" perspective) would have an off switch (as "we" like to call it here).

 

Kim

[Debbie Meier]

Um, that "off switch" term, I have to say, annoys me.

 

Out of curiosity, what visual do you get when you hear the term?

[kelpiegirl]

Well, it harkens back to people referring to dots on the Border Collie's heads, and that being called the off switch. Visual? Hard to articulate, just feels like it dumbs down the dogs. To expound, it implies that Border Collies need that switch, and without it, they are nuts. When, in fact a good working dog is not a crazy animal when not working, regardless of the presence of that switch.

 

Out of curiosity, what visual do you get when you hear the term?

[Debbie Meier]

Well, it harkens back to people referring to dots on the Border Collie's heads, and that being called the off switch. Visual? Hard to articulate, just feels like it dumbs down the dogs. To expound, it implies that Border Collies need that switch, and without it, they are nuts. When, in fact a good working dog is not a crazy animal when not working, regardless of the presence of that switch.

 

 

Ah...never heard of that. Wayne has used the term for as long as I remember with our heelers, he would let them rev up when playing and then just when they were ready to lose self control he would shut them down. He called it "Working on their Off Switch", it was an exercise to teach self control and respect for him.

 

When he sees a dog that lacks self control or discipline the first thing he says, "you need to work on your off switch"

 

 

Deb

[kelpiegirl]

That's a new way of looking at it Deb, thanks. Now I won't have such a knee jerk negative reaction, I hope.

 

Ah...never heard of that. Wayne has used the term for as long as I remember with our heelers, he would let them rev up when playing and then just when they were ready to lose self control he would shut them down. He called it "Working on their Off Switch", it was an exercise to teach self control and respect for him.

 

When he sees a dog that lacks self control or discipline the first thing he says, "you need to work on your off switch"

Deb