Laurelin Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 I just want to know if this exists. I know smooth coats are technically allowed in the conf ring but are there actually any smooth champions? I've already asked a few show bc people and I got nowhere. (I got links of show breeders that had smooths but I got no confirmation that a smooth ch exists....) I figured I'd ask here just in case someone here knew something. Call it a morbid curiosity. ETA: Okay, nevermind. I found one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 I just want to know if this exists. I know smooth coats are technically allowed in the conf ring but are there actually any smooth champions? I've already asked a few show bc people and I got nowhere. (I got links of show breeders that had smooths but I got no confirmation that a smooth ch exists....) I figured I'd ask here just in case someone here knew something. Call it a morbid curiosity. ETA: Okay, nevermind. I found one. Well, I found one too. (You made me curious) Here is a dog that the breeders claim is the first AKC champion smooth-coat. http://www.risingsunfarm.com/dice.html Here's a picture: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted November 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Well, I found one too. (You made me curious) Here is a dog that the breeders claim is the first AKC champion smooth-coat. http://www.risingsunfarm.com/dice.html Here's a picture: Yeah that's the same one I found too right after I posted this (of course!) I spent a week or so looking and then posted and found one a few minutes later. I'm still guessing it's not that common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfrank7262 Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 From my experience showing dogs (not BCs), hairy dogs always have the advantage over the smooth-coated dogs. I guess judges like all the fluff! LOL Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 http://www.uherditbordercollies.com/lachlan.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted November 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 http://www.uherditbordercollies.com/lachlan.html Thanks! So apparently they do exist which is actually quite surprising to me. The reason I asked was it was brought up in a discussion/debate the other day and it sparked my curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfrank7262 Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Lachlan is beautiful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRayBee Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 From my experience showing dogs (not BCs), hairy dogs always have the advantage over the smooth-coated dogs. I guess judges like all the fluff! LOL Dana Ain't that the truth...in Canada all Belgian Shepherds are painted with the same CKC brush, and I have seen some structurally magnificent Malinois go all but unnoticed when put side by side with a nice fluffy Tervuren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Ain't that the truth...in Canada all Belgian Shepherds are painted with the same CKC brush, and I have seen some structurally magnificent Malinois go all but unnoticed when put side by side with a nice fluffy Tervuren. Yep, very true - except Rough Collies rarely get group or BIS placements. Terriers, Afgans, Poodles of all sizes. But most of the people I have known that show Rough Collies don't even bother with all-breed shows. Personally, I think that since it's a head breed and the movement of the average AKC collie is dreadful, that might be why judges don't put them up more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 This is a very weird discussion for these boards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 This is a very weird discussion for these boards! You're right. But it's not much weirder than the "bitch" thread... Still, it is weird. I guess some of us have stuff in our history that we wouldn't be caught dead at now... But seeing what we've seen makes the argument against conformation showing that much more trenchant. And we've learned better - so good for us. Nobody as zealous as a convert... I mean, yeah - Lachlan is beautiful. But can he work stock? I could get my picture taken in a Tomcat Jet. But could I fly it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Yep, it is, but what the heck. The ANKC breed standard for Border Collies specifies a rough coat: "Double coated, with a moderately long, dense, medium textured topcoat while the undercoat is short, soft and dense, making a weather resisting protection, with abundant coat to form mane, breeching and brush. On face, ear tips, forelegs (except for feather), hind legs from hock to ground, the hair is short and smooth." Therefore, in Australia, smooth-coated show Border Collies don't exist. The New Zealand Kennel Club standard allows smooth coats, but only as an afterthought: "Double coated, with a moderately long, dense, medium textured topcoat while the undercoat is short, soft and dense, making a weather resisting protection with an abundant coat to form a mane, breeching and brush. On face, ear tips, forelegs (except for feather), hindlegs from hock to ground, the hair is short and smooth. A smooth coat is acceptable." [italics mine] Since most successful show dogs in the U.S. go back to Australian-bred and New Zealand-bred dogs, and these dogs have defined, in the minds of judges, what a Border Collie should look like in the ring, I am guessing that it is very difficult to finish a smooth-coated dog, and that when smooth-coated dogs do succeed in finishing, they are only able to do so by being shown in venues or areas where the competition is not very high quality (by conformation standards). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Since most successful show dogs in the U.S. go back to Australian-bred and New Zealand-bred dogs, and these dogs have defined, in the minds of judges, what a Border Collie should look like in the ring, I am guessing that it is very difficult to finish a smooth-coated dog, and that when smooth-coated dogs do succeed in finishing, they are only able to do so by being shown in venues or areas where the competition is not very high quality (by conformation standards). Solo River Yup, I can see this. It was like that if you were trying to finish a white collie or before that, a smooth. Stick your dog in a class that was bound to be poorly attended. Judges can withhold ribbons if you are in a class of one - but they don't usually. My one and only experience with conformation was with a 9 month old Rough pup. He was the only one in his class, but he came home from the Golden Gate Kennel Club show at the Cow Palace with a blue ribbon. People were so impressed. It cracked me up! Some of my friends thought that since we had a blue ribbon we were BIS. I didn't dissuade them. The thing that was really funny about it was that Sensei was a sable-merle with a big, blocky head and round eyes. (For a Rough Collie) When we were on the benches with the "real" show dogs the rubberneckers would cluster around Sensei, ooohing and aaahing. Some of the show breeder were quite annoyed by it... He was a truly wonderful dog - perfect gentleman - great Frisbee dog - never sired a single pup. Died last year. RIP, big dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 This is a very weird discussion for these boards! Lol sorry! I figured someone here might know and it was bothering me ever since it was brought up the other day in a debate! I had never read the show standard so I was shocked they were even allowed. "Double coated, with a moderately long, dense, medium textured topcoat while the undercoat is short, soft and dense, making a weather resisting protection, with abundant coat to form mane, breeching and brush. On face, ear tips, forelegs (except for feather), hind legs from hock to ground, the hair is short and smooth." Therefore, in Australia, smooth-coated show Border Collies don't exist. That is interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Well, I found one too. (You made me curious) Here is a dog that the breeders claim is the first AKC champion smooth-coat. http://www.risingsunfarm.com/dice.html Here's a picture: I am quite sure Dice was the first smooth Ch. His owner was the primary person setting the standard for smooths in the early days of AKC. I know the dog trialed alot in arenas, but can't recall him working in the field FWIW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Pam - Would you ever consider writing a history of the Border Collie in the US (or North America)? You seem to know so much! I, for one, would certainly like to know more about the breed's history and the important players (human and dog). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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