Agility Table Issues

[Olivia]

Okay, I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

 

I've been working with a friend of mine in agility for about 3 years now and I am at the end of my rope with her table problems and don't know what else to do to help her. I hope someone here has some advice.

 

First, the dog. Allie is a 4 year old 3/4 border collie 1/4 aussie known cross. She was purchased from a backyard breeder with her sister Abby. They began showing some serious aggression issues at about 6-9 months of age. She was enrolled in an obedience class at the facility where I taught agility but was kicked out due to the severe dog and person aggression. I allowed her to come to beginning agility if the dog wore a muzzle. She wore the muzzle for about a year and we gradually got it off her. Her sister is still extremely aggressive and is retired from agility but Allie is still going. Her aggression was based on fear and the more confidence we gave her the better she got. I can run her now while her owner watches which is something we never ever thought would happen.

 

When she started competing she was very scared and stressed about everything, from the campground and camper to the ring, to her show crate, the judge, other dogs, etc, etc. A lot of positive reinforcement later she is running in P2 in USDAA and is really enjoying herself. She still stresses a little if something really out of the ordinary happens but 95% of the time she is fine.

 

Now the problem. She started agility scared of everything, all the equipment was terrifying. Positive reinforcement got her past most of it. The exception being the teeter. She was so scared that we were rewarding her for going up it at all, even if she bailed off, and inadvertently trained her to go halfway up and as soon as it started to tip, jump off. We had a teeter intervention where her handler physically held her on the teeter, I helped the teeter tip slowly and a friend put a trail of liver down the teeter to the down contact. 4-5 times of this she got the idea and does the teeter fine now in practice and in competition. I'm afraid we have another situation with the table. In practice and around town she will hop up on anything and down. In competition she won't even go near the table. The best she will do is hop on and immediately hop off. We initially thought she was afraid and would get better as she got more experience but I'm not so sure. I think she is no longer scared but knows that she doesn't have to do it at a competition and that her handler can't do anything about it. Her body language is like she is playing keep away. It's like she needs to be stopped, taken by the collar to the table and made to get on it and downed to learn that not only that she can but she must. But obviously that can't be done in competition.

 

If she were mine and she knew the command and chose to play keep away I would stop her and take her off course. She can't play the rest of the course if she doesn't do the table. Her handler is so darn competitive that she doesn't want to ever leave a course without finishing it.

 

Any suggestions? I know you can train in the ring in NADAC... could you touch her to put her on the table in that venue?

 

Olivia

[Northof49]

Hi Olivia

 

Do you have any other agility venues available to you in your area or close by that would allow you to work through this issue in the ring? I don't know if you are close enough to the US/Canadian Border to come and play in AAC where you are allowed to train in the ring.

 

Do you have access to fun matches, and if so, is the table an issue in fun matches.

[Root Beer]

Any suggestions? I know you can train in the ring in NADAC... could you touch her to put her on the table in that venue?

 

There is no table in NADAC, so that's not an option.

 

My suggestion would be for the handler to build a table to have at home. Then, forget training a "table" behavior and just start rewarding the heck out of the dog for having anything to do with it. They could play shaping games where the dog is rewarded for just looking at it, walking by it, etc. until the dog figures out that the table is a good thing and she starts to offer interaction with it.

 

I literally taught Maddie her table by mistake. When we started Agility, the small group would rotate around the room together and each of us would take a turn training on pieces of equipment. When it wasn't our turn, I used to have Maddie sit on the table and feed her just to keep her from getting bored and going to sleep.

 

After doing that for months and months, she started running to that table every time she thought we were going to go near it. In fact, I had to teach her to call off, not go to it!

 

So, if the dog's owner had a table at home, she could eventually get her dog up on it every day and feed, feed, feed, to make it rewarding to the dog to be on there, and from there table behaviors could be taught.

 

I think she is no longer scared but knows that she doesn't have to do it at a competition and that her handler can't do anything about it. Her body language is like she is playing keep away. It's like she needs to be stopped, taken by the collar to the table and made to get on it and downed to learn that not only that she can but she must.

 

A dog who needs to be forced to interact with a piece of equipment (which I would not do, actually) does not understand his or her job on that piece of equipment.

 

I'd go back to square 1 and work on making interaction with that piece of equipment highly rewarding, and then retrain the behavior from scratch. Only after the dog can complete the exercise fluently would I even consider taking the dog into a competition where he or she will encounter that piece of equipment.

 

I hope that helps!!

[diane allen]

There is no table in NADAC, otherwise that would be a great venue to "train in the ring!"

 

My guess - from afar, so you get what you pay for! - is that maybe competition is soooooo exciting and the table is soooooo boring - she just doesn't want to stop on it. (That is what "test" is all about!) I would think continuing to reward at home would be good - really high rewards too. If she jumps onto the table in competition, then immediately jumps down - yeah, I'd be leaving the course with a huge amount of very nice but sorrowful words ("Oh poooor dog...we have to LEAVE now...aw, darn....that's toooo bad....." etc.). It might just confuse the dog enough to help!

 

diane

[Root Beer]

BTW, since NADAC has no table, it might be a good venue for them to play in for a while. Maybe build the dog's confidence up a bit without a piece of equipment that causes conflict and issues in the mix.

 

NADAC courses are also very wide open and it's a very fun venue for a dog who loves to run flat out.

[Mariji]

There's no point in training the table in competition you are best to start at home if she won't go near it. With my girls, my older one goes nah no way you making me drop on that and wait when i want to RUN! so with my little one i started feeding her on it, shaping tricks on it and playing on it. Now if theres a table nearby she just can't wait to get on it. When they are happy to get on and wait for their dinner, ask for table criteria (a drop with all four feet on table) and then your problem is solved. She doesn't see any value for sitting on the table because it stops her fun. so feed her only ever on the table and play/train on it and i will guarantee you it will fix your problem. GOOD LUCK!

[Olivia]

Well, the problem is only in competition. She has a table at home that she is more than happy to jump on and down quickly and happily. She is familiar with all the venues of fun matches around here so no problems there either. We took her everywhere that had stuff that even vaguely resembled a table and had her hop on and down (like benches, etc) and no problems. The issue only happens in the ring at competitions. Maybe I didn't explain it enough but I don't think she is scared anymore. She is playing a game and she knows that there is nothing her handler can do.

 

We are in Tennessee so too far away for AAC.

 

I think Diane's advice is what I will recommend. If she won't do it then just be sad about having to leave the ring and go quietly and put her in her crate and allow her to think about it.

 

Olivia

[Mariji]

Well, the problem is only in competition. She has a table at home that she is more than happy to jump on and down quickly and happily. She is familiar with all the venues of fun matches around here so no problems there either. We took her everywhere that had stuff that even vaguely resembled a table and had her hop on and down (like benches, etc) and no problems. The issue only happens in the ring at competitions. Maybe I didn't explain it enough but I don't think she is scared anymore. She is playing a game and she knows that there is nothing her handler can do.

 

We are in Tennessee so too far away for AAC.

 

I think Diane's advice is what I will recommend. If she won't do it then just be sad about having to leave the ring and go quietly and put her in her crate and allow her to think about it.

 

Olivia

 

If there is enough value in the table she WILL do it. I don't think leaving the course works, as you will have to address the issue somehow. One day she will get on the table and you have no way of rewarding her big time, im talking like huge rewards. Just try building that value at home, she's going "I don't have to get on that so i sure as heck aren't going too" My pup if she's sees a table 100m away she will run the entire length of the field to sit on it. I released her and walked away just to find when i walked back the entire way she had hopped back on and was waiting patiently. Try using a table at a competition, specifically ask for it to be put out as a warm up obstacle. Pretend you are running, sit her up, throw her leash, whatever routine you usually do and then see if she will do it. If she does, give her the best toy she has, steak anything she absolutely loves. Still train at home like i posted above. It will help. I went through this with my older girl and now she loves the table.

[topnotchdog]

Well, the problem is only in competition.

 

I imagine that is a frustrating problem, especially when she has overcome other things and agility has probably helped her a lot. Here's my 2 cents:

 

The table in competition is never the same as the one at home, especially for dogs who have fear issues. It is covered with the scents of unfamiliar dogs, some who may have left scent markings, possibly even indicating stress (from foot pads, anal glands, etc.). Seems to me it would be worth trying to a) significantly up the value of the table performance (not so that it is "fine" or even "very good," but so that she absolutely adores it) and b ) scent the table with the scent of familiar dogs first, adding unfamiliar dog scent as you have success (you can use a cloth to wipe dogs and then the table, or if the table is portable have her take it with her and get other dogs on it once she's at that stage. Finally, she can then take her own table on the road, with unfamiliar dog scents. If there is run-through practice she can take advantage of, that would be a good thing to try at that point.

 

Barbara

[IPSY]

IF you can take your dog to parks with tables and benches , I would make it a huge game of jumping up on the table and treat , treat , treat. Then play ball or whatever is the most favorite play .....

Or , if you have a groomer in the area , maybe you can talk to them into letting you have your dog jump on on one and treat her them run out and party with her...I know some people dont like to bring their dogs into places like this , (understandably) but they will have table scents very similiar to the agility ring table.

I would do this every chance you get and make it FUN. And use extremely high value food rewards like bits of steak or chicken, etc....

 

Have you thought about if you are making eye contact with her when she gets on the table at a trial ? That alone may make her very uneasy..I know my BC used to actually shut down ...it took alot of work and lost Q's to finally work her thru it...Just dont rush it ...it will come.

 

Good luck