Chaos and Order

[Megs]

So it's been a while since writting here! I have been really busy with agility competitions (running friends dogs), training Chaos for his up and coming big day ( one day ) his first agility competition!

 

For those of you that don't know, Chaos has some fear aggression issues but more leaning toward the protecting me from people approaching. This has gone on for a while now, while getting great advice on here and trying all that everyone told me I still felt a bit lost, I wanted someone to sit down with me, watch my dogs reactions and then tell me exactly what I am doing wrong! To which this finally happened and a lovely lady with many years experience as an Animal Behavourist in dogs as well as wild animals gave me the guidence I craved.

 

She assesed me and Chaos together as a team, I believe that it is never the dogs fault but the owner who has somehow let the dog down, with a lapse in training etc. Chaos has had all the training I can get and give and therefore it still puzzles me as to why he has this fear and then the need to protect me? He has issues with "greeting" people and the person can only get within 2 meters of him and he starts getting uncomfortable, barking, lashing out and if male, he will bite! So I am now told that I need to be the one to greet people, I must get Chaos sitting behind me and I must watch him not the person approaching - as soon as he starts to react or tries to get up and bark, I must give him a firm and confident "uh-ah" to which he responds very well and immediatly stops, the LOTS of praise, if he doesn't react at all then MORE MORE praise. So we are working at it and this is going to take a LONG time, im patient enough but I find myself being very emotional about the situation and hard on myself....thinking things like, "what if I can't correct this behavoiur" or "what if I can't compete in agility because he barks at the judge" I feel that I have let him and myself down! I am holding back the tears as I type!

 

I want him to be a confident and happy dog in any situation but I can't help but think I have somehow messed that up for him and it's killing me! Ok as dramatic as I sound this is really and truly very important to me and I want to overcome it as long as it takes but can someone at least give me a pat on the back? I feel like I have failed as the good dog owner and feel like a bit of an ignoramous! My boyfriend thinks he is a world class dog trainer and straight after seeing the dog behaviourist he said to me "I told you to do all those things"! What!!!????!!! I felt like throwing a few punches!! Ok, so I am having general life issues!!!!!!!!

 

He really isn't THAT bad but the situation just really gets me down! He loves my brother, my BF, my step father and all my neighbours but has a huge problem with strangers approaching him!

 

Has anyone else ever had some issues with their dog protecting them? or something similar to me?

 

It would be great if you could share!

[kelpiegirl]

He sounds fear aggressive to me. He is clearly giving warning before he bites. You need to make it NOT about him, when you see/greet people. I would teach him to lay down, and stay, when someone came up to us, and then I would walk forward and greet the person. He needs a 100% obedience on the down. Also, do NOT have people greet him. Some dogs just are not the outgoing type- I have one- she's not a biter, but she clearly, only has eyes for me (literally, she will only look at me when someone else is around, unless they act non pushy toward her- then, maybe she will be submissive and friendly). Your dog needs to realize that he can blend in with the scenery, and not be put on the spot. You can't force dogs to like interactions with other people, you can, and should manage interactions yourself. Once he is comfortable knowing he will be ignored, you may get lucky and he will be interested- but, do not trust this, because MANY fear dogs will look like they are "cool with that person", and then, after the interaction, will try and bite as the person walks away.

 

So it's been a while since writting here! I have been really busy with agility competitions (running friends dogs), training Chaos for his up and coming big day ( one day ) his first agility competition!

 

For those of you that don't know, Chaos has some fear aggression issues but more leaning toward the protecting me from people approaching. This has gone on for a while now, while getting great advice on here and trying all that everyone told me I still felt a bit lost, I wanted someone to sit down with me, watch my dogs reactions and then tell me exactly what I am doing wrong! To which this finally happened and a lovely lady with many years experience as an Animal Behavourist in dogs as well as wild animals gave me the guidence I craved.

 

She assesed me and Chaos together as a team, I believe that it is never the dogs fault but the owner who has somehow let the dog down, with a lapse in training etc. Chaos has had all the training I can get and give and therefore it still puzzles me as to why he has this fear and then the need to protect me? He has issues with "greeting" people and the person can only get within 2 meters of him and he starts getting uncomfortable, barking, lashing out and if male, he will bite! So I am now told that I need to be the one to greet people, I must get Chaos sitting behind me and I must watch him not the person approaching - as soon as he starts to react or tries to get up and bark, I must give him a firm and confident "uh-ah" to which he responds very well and immediatly stops, the LOTS of praise, if he doesn't react at all then MORE MORE praise. So we are working at it and this is going to take a LONG time, im patient enough but I find myself being very emotional about the situation and hard on myself....thinking things like, "what if I can't correct this behavoiur" or "what if I can't compete in agility because he barks at the judge" I feel that I have let him and myself down! I am holding back the tears as I type!

 

I want him to be a confident and happy dog in any situation but I can't help but think I have somehow messed that up for him and it's killing me! Ok as dramatic as I sound this is really and truly very important to me and I want to overcome it as long as it takes but can someone at least give me a pat on the back? I feel like I have failed as the good dog owner and feel like a bit of an ignoramous! My boyfriend thinks he is a world class dog trainer and straight after seeing the dog behaviourist he said to me "I told you to do all those things"! What!!!????!!! I felt like throwing a few punches!! Ok, so I am having general life issues!!!!!!!!

 

He really isn't THAT bad but the situation just really gets me down! He loves my brother, my BF, my step father and all my neighbours but has a huge problem with strangers approaching him!

 

Has anyone else ever had some issues with their dog protecting them? or something similar to me?

 

It would be great if you could share!

[urge to herd]

Dogs come 'wired' with certain tendencies, just like people. We are none of us totally blank slates. From what you're saying, I don't think you've failed as a dog owner, you merely needed an outside perspective because you'd run into something you hadn't dealt with before.

 

The advice about not forcing him into social situations is right on, don't let people greet him, no matter what they say. For a dog this fearful, meeting someone new needs to be done very slowly and calmly, usually over a period of time. As to whether or not he will be an agility star, that remains to be seen. He could be focused enough while running a course that he doesn't care about people. Or, he could turn out to not be a good prospect. You don't have enough information right now to know.

 

You did not create Chaos' issues. He came with them. It's certainly possible to make him worse, by forcing him to interact, but it's also very possible that he'll get better. Don't push him too fast, be consistent, don't let strangers approach him, and he'll relax quite a bit. He may never be a party guy, but he'll be better than he is now.

 

And as for the BF, have a talk with him, when you can be neutral, and tell him that while true, his comments weren't helpful. Then tell what he could do to actually be useful in training Chaos and supporting you.

 

 

Ruth

[Megs]

Thanks for the advice!

 

Im trying my best not to make it about him when greeting but it's difficult sometimes. He is obedient enough but when put in the situation when he is scared he might not stay down but with a strong "uh-ah" he immediatly corrects himself and stops - usually goes back into a down! We are working on it!

 

The thing is he is the sweetest dog - once he gets to know you - if you are a stranger he is VERY weary of you! But once you make friends he will shower you with kisses and love and play! I can however understand what you are saying - don't force him if he does not enjoy the strange people interaction BUT saying that I do need him to get used to the fact that it's ok when someone is approaching him, like I've got it and he can relax!

[Megs]

Thanks Ruth! It makes alot of sense and I would never force him to do something he is not comfortable with but im hoping that over time he will slowly calm down more and more with people being around, instead of being on high alert! He has HUGE drive and is super focused on the task whatever may be asked of him, dying to please me! When agility training he is in me and working mode, he doesn't seem to notice anyone or anything else accept what I ask him to do which is promising!! Time will tell.

 

Why are people in such a rush to greet dogs they don't know? Okay, I know he is beautiful but if you are not sure how a dog would react? I mean if Chaos had to bite anyone, I would be sued, wether they came up to me or not! This is what gives me the most stress, however I am confident in the fact that he listens to me and so I have voice control over him but still.......ja, BF problems NOT helping the situation at all! Hence me being so emotional

 

Dogs come 'wired' with certain tendencies, just like people. We are none of us totally blank slates. From what you're saying, I don't think you've failed as a dog owner, you merely needed an outside perspective because you'd run into something you hadn't dealt with before.

 

The advice about not forcing him into social situations is right on, don't let people greet him, no matter what they say. For a dog this fearful, meeting someone new needs to be done very slowly and calmly, usually over a period of time. As to whether or not he will be an agility star, that remains to be seen. He could be focused enough while running a course that he doesn't care about people. Or, he could turn out to not be a good prospect. You don't have enough information right now to know.

 

You did not create Chaos' issues. He came with them. It's certainly possible to make him worse, by forcing him to interact, but it's also very possible that he'll get better. Don't push him too fast, be consistent, don't let strangers approach him, and he'll relax quite a bit. He may never be a party guy, but he'll be better than he is now.

 

And as for the BF, have a talk with him, when you can be neutral, and tell him that while true, his comments weren't helpful. Then tell what he could do to actually be useful in training Chaos and supporting you.

Ruth

[bc4ever]

Why are people in such a rush to greet dogs they don't know?

I ask myself that every time Scooter and I go out in public! Beyond me! I'd never do it, that's for sure!

[JohnLloydJones]

Why are people in such a rush to greet dogs they don't know? Okay, I know he is beautiful but if you are not sure how a dog would react?

 

What perplexes me is that parents allow (and encourage) small children to go and "pet" dogs they don't know. Only the other day a 4-5 yr old girl at the park reached out and petted Senneca, who turned around startled. She's excellent with small children, but how is the mother of the child (who was standing close by) to know that?

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Sometimes we all have to step back and take a look at the situation in a neutral way. I got my dog with agility in mind, and one day when she was about 2 I had to take a step back and say to myself, "Is this a realistic goal". It wasn't, she's way to fearful, so now, we learn tricks and go to classes with no pressure and she's a great pet. I couldn't ask for a better dog! (for me anyway)

 

Not saying your goal isn't realistic, just saying sometimes we can't help the way our dogs are and we should be able to accept that it's not necessarily our fault!

 

I think teaching him to go behind you and lay down is a great suggestion, but if he's over his threshold and people are still approaching, it might not work as well as you'd want and you might have a lot more set backs. Have you tried food with him? Having strangers walk up to him, but not past his threshold and toss some treats, and walk away could be a very good way of getting him used to strangers approaching. If he's too stressed with the strangers tossing, you can either just have them drop and walk away for him to go get after they leave or you can feed him until he's comfortable with people tossing the treats....

 

There are a couple of great yahoo groups out there that you might find useful, the first might be better because it's for reactive dogs.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Pos-4-ReactiveDogs/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/shy-k9s...yguid=358575573

 

Also some books that I've found very useful with Daisy's issues,

Click to Calm

Control Unleashed

How to right a dog gone wrong by Pamela Dennison (first I read "Bringing Light to Shadow" and it totally inspired me)

 

Good luck and know you are doing a good job!

[urge to herd]

Why are people in such a rush to greet dogs they don't know? Okay, I know he is beautiful but if you are not sure how a dog would react? I mean if Chaos had to bite anyone, I would be sued, wether they came up to me or not! This is what gives me the most stress, however I am confident in the fact that he listens to me and so I have voice control over him but still.......ja, BF problems NOT helping the situation at all! Hence me being so emotional

 

 

My Shoshone is red/white, with a arrowhead white spot on her head, and ice blue eyes. When we got her, she was terrified all the time. I can't tell you how many times I stepped between her and an oncoming person and said, "She's in training, and I'm not ready to let strangers approach her." Got a few dirty looks, but most people were fine with it. And I didn't fall for the 'oh, dogs like me!' line, either.

 

She's still not an outgoing dog with anyone other than humans she knows really, really, really well. But, she's sure not as scared as she used to be.

 

Good luck with the BF. Try and remember to reinforce what you like from him, (Oh, thanks for doing the dishes, that's great! rather than 'You forgot to wipe the counters' kinds of things). People respond to encouragement and a positive approach as much as other critters.

 

Chaos

[Carlasl]

The Cautious Canine by Patricia McConnell is all about counter-conditioning a fearful dog to strangers, I would highly suggest it for your situation.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Cautious-Canine-Patr...0363&sr=8-1

[Megs]

The Cautious Canine by Patricia McConnell is all about counter-conditioning a fearful dog to strangers, I would highly suggest it for your situation.

http://www.amazon.com/Cautious-Canine-Patr...0363&sr=8-1

 

Thanks for this! Books help alot and inspire me too!

 

Thank you to everyone for replying! It helps alot! Just last night we had agility training - small group - he loves all the girls I train with so no problems there but then a man HAD to stand within what felt like two feet of out equipment and watch - I couldn't run Chaos for the last round, he was already growling and making little barks before we even stepped on the field!! OH how people can make me angry - I just want to train my dog dammit! Although, I understand they just want to watch but c'mon - so close? Anyway......

 

As for people trying to touch him, I had a lady try to say hello to him when I was walking by and chaos barked at the last minute - she said, oh but he looks so friendly - the general public has no idea!!! Plus if something had to happen - it's ALWAYS the dogs fault! Things we better last night, I felt more confident as there were people playing Rudgy on the fields next door and Chaos was quite calm and stayed completely focused on me! It was a great night!

 

The trolley people are "bergies" (homesless) are constantly walking past the fields and the dogs go balistic, which then sets Chaos off but I had him under control and was VERY aware of my surroundings!

[Megs]

My Shoshone is red/white, with a arrowhead white spot on her head, and ice blue eyes. When we got her, she was terrified all the time. I can't tell you how many times I stepped between her and an oncoming person and said, "She's in training, and I'm not ready to let strangers approach her." Got a few dirty looks, but most people were fine with it. And I didn't fall for the 'oh, dogs like me!' line, either.

 

She's still not an outgoing dog with anyone other than humans she knows really, really, really well. But, she's sure not as scared as she used to be.

 

Good luck with the BF. Try and remember to reinforce what you like from him, (Oh, thanks for doing the dishes, that's great! rather than 'You forgot to wipe the counters' kinds of things). People respond to encouragement and a positive approach as much as other critters.

 

Chaos

 

Thats actually a good line to use "he is in training" hmmm, I will use that from now on. It's not like he is a derranged dog, he IS in training. PLus I HATE the stigma a dog gets when people are aware he is not so comfortable with people approaching him and they think he is a nasty dog or something! People have NO idea how hard it is and they make it worse, I swear some dog people are really more nasty themselves!!

 

Chaos has been through alot - just five months ago he went through extensive surgery on his shoulder as he was diagnosed with OCD in his right shoulder, he was SO traumatized by the experience and this is also when his fear agression got much worse, I had to keep him house bound for almost 2 months and when we eventually started to take him out and about in the car etc he hated the world of men, especially. Woman tend to have a calming affect but hem generally scare the hell out of him - think it could have something to do with the fact that the vets were men? He went through two surgerys just about back to back.....