Am I being over-sensitive or is it my age?

[sea4th]

Nope. Still refers to him as being like a woman. It's the female reference that's insulting.

 

I don't think reference to body parts counts, either. We need something that refers to behavior. Something that is one's choice.

 

Once I heard the term "wanker" I saw right away that it's place in someone's vocabulary. What bitch is to female, wanker is to male.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[sea4th]

Oh and the use of the word "bitch" referring to a female dog --- look at any ACK show catalogue and all breeds are divided into "dogs" and "bitches". I never thought of what people making a casual visit to a show thought when seeing that word printed in a catalogue.

[urge to herd]

Nope. Still refers to him as being like a woman. It's the female reference that's insulting.

 

I don't think reference to body parts counts, either. We need something that refers to behavior. Something that is one's choice.

 

"jerkwad" or "jerkface" is frequently used at my house. "Idiot", "a**h**e" or even "idiot a*****e" are heard sometimes.

 

I've gotten used to using "flippin" instead of that other 'f' word. If I say, "It is so flippin' hot today", people are mildly amused and relieved that I didn't use the other 'f' word. And, I feel better for having vented my frustration a little bit.

 

Ruth

[bcnewe2]

What bitch is to female, wanker is to male

Isn't Wanker referring to a male body part too? That was my understanding of the word. But I still like it!

 

It is so flippin' hot today", people are mildly amused and relieved that I didn't use the other 'f' word. And, I feel better for having vented my frustration a little bit.

 

Again, it's just a word. Do you mean the same when you say freakin of flippn as the other "f" word? If you mean it in the same way, in my head it's the same.

I try to be good but sometimes things just slip out my mouth and then I have to put my huge foot right on in.

[Dixie_Girl]

I believe it was George Carlin who once said, "Shoot, is just sh** with two "o's". No matter the word, if the meaning is still the same.

[geonni banner]

Isn't Wanker referring to a male body part too? That was my understanding of the word. But I still like it!

Again, it's just a word. Do you mean the same when you say freakin of flippn as the other "f" word? If you mean it in the same way, in my head it's the same.

I try to be good but sometimes things just slip out my mouth and then I have to put my huge foot right on in.

 

From Wikipedia:

The term wanker originated from British slang in the 1940s, based on the verb wank Wanker literally means "one who wanks (masturbates)". It is normally intended as a general insult rather than as an accusation. It conveys contempt, not commentary on sexual habits. Wanker has similar meanings and overtones to American pejoratives like jerk, and jerk-off. One connotation is of someone self-obsessed or a show-off. Another implication is that the wanker is unable to find a sexual partner.

By the 1970s, the general meaning of wanker had shifted from its literal origin (as a masturbator) to that of a generic insult, i.e. "a contemptible person". This shift in usage is comparable with that of dick, arse or jerk.

The word has developed a metaphorical usage, in which to wank or to be a wanker implies egotistical and self-indulgent behaviour. This is the dominant meaning in Australia.

It is also used as a more general insult. This meaning is used in phrases like smug wanker, egotistical wanker or pretentious wanker. Wanker is sometimes used to refer to a person in the same way as snob for subjects perceived as pretentious; for instance, wine wanker, fashion wanker, car wanker. This meaning is shown in "Whatareya?", a song by TISM, which contrasts "yobs" (uncouth working class) to "wankers" (which according to the context means pretentious intellectuals). In the United States the current usage of the term is more in reference to the person being an idiot or moron, as opposed to the standard dick or jerk synonym in other countries.

 

(Enquiring minds want to know... )

[sea4th]

Well now. That's a lot of information to sort through. For the reasons Nancy mentioned, I figured in all fairness, there has to be a male equivalent to "bitch" and wanker has such a nice ring to it. The search is over for me.

 

 

 

From Wikipedia:

The term wanker originated from British slang in the 1940s, based on the verb wank Wanker literally means "one who wanks (masturbates)". It is normally intended as a general insult rather than as an accusation. It conveys contempt, not commentary on sexual habits. Wanker has similar meanings and overtones to American pejoratives like jerk, and jerk-off. One connotation is of someone self-obsessed or a show-off. Another implication is that the wanker is unable to find a sexual partner.

By the 1970s, the general meaning of wanker had shifted from its literal origin (as a masturbator) to that of a generic insult, i.e. "a contemptible person". This shift in usage is comparable with that of dick, arse or jerk.

The word has developed a metaphorical usage, in which to wank or to be a wanker implies egotistical and self-indulgent behaviour. This is the dominant meaning in Australia.

It is also used as a more general insult. This meaning is used in phrases like smug wanker, egotistical wanker or pretentious wanker. Wanker is sometimes used to refer to a person in the same way as snob for subjects perceived as pretentious; for instance, wine wanker, fashion wanker, car wanker. This meaning is shown in "Whatareya?", a song by TISM, which contrasts "yobs" (uncouth working class) to "wankers" (which according to the context means pretentious intellectuals). In the United States the current usage of the term is more in reference to the person being an idiot or moron, as opposed to the standard dick or jerk synonym in other countries.

 

(Enquiring minds want to know... )

[bcnewe2]

Well now. That's a lot of information to sort through. For the reasons Nancy mentioned, I figured in all fairness, there has to be a male equivalent to "bitch" and wanker has such a nice ring to it. The search is over for me.

Yep

We have a winner!

[mbc1963]

Yes, "wanker" is specifically male. But I don't think it means the same thing as "bitch." When I hear "wanker," I just think of it as being "loser." A jerky guy, a guy without a clue, maybe a guy who's socially inept.

 

"Bitch" doesn't just mean a female jerk or loser. It's got a need to imply that a woman is too powerful or too strong-willed to be a "real female," which is why I think it bugs me. If a guy tells another guy off for being a wanker, the guys have simply had a disagreement. But if a woman tells the wanker off, he gets to dismiss it because the woman is a "bitch."

 

When I was younger and sweeter (and yet still not that sweet!), I ran the student cafe of a Catholic boarding school on the Yukon Delta in an isolated Alaskan native village. We got a lot of... interesting... people through there. The guy who cooked was retired from the Navy. He sent food down to the cafe on the dumbwaiter, and I sent the utensils and stuff back up. Apparently, I forgot to send back a big spoon. Maybe more than once, I dunno. I hadn't heard anything about it. One night, Mike the cook came down to the cafe and yelled at me in front of the student servers and all the schoolkids: "You can't keep these down here! These belong up in the kitchen! That's my spoon!" In my stupefied, naive-girl state, I snapped, passed him the spoon, and said, "Well, just take it then!"

 

Alas, some students saw me blinking away tears afterwards (I had lived a sheltered life - what can I say?), and told the female principal of the school about the interaction. Whereupon SHE took it upon herself to talk to the old Navy cook about how he treated her staff. Whereupon Mike the cook apparently regaled all the young male teachers I worked with about what a BITCH I was. They found it quite amusing to report that to me, later on. They laughed and laughed and laughed. Thanks, guys.

 

That word, "bitch," was Mike's tool - his easy way to breeze through life and dismiss the appropriately-angered behavior of a woman in a way that he could not dismiss the same behavior coming from a man. And I still remember that incident very clearly, after 24+ years, which goes to show you something about the power of words.

 

If my guy friends had raised the bar - maybe challenged Mike, or defended me - it would have made me feel pretty good. But they were happy to play boys' club manners, and chortle along and laugh about the whole thing.

 

Mary

[geonni banner]

Yes, "wanker" is specifically male. But I don't think it means the same thing as "bitch." When I hear "wanker," I just think of it as being "loser." A jerky guy, a guy without a clue, maybe a guy who's socially inept.

 

"Bitch" doesn't just mean a female jerk or loser. It's got a need to imply that a woman is too powerful or too strong-willed to be a "real female," which is why I think it bugs me. If a guy tells another guy off for being a wanker, the guys have simply had a disagreement. But if a woman tells the wanker off, he gets to dismiss it because the woman is a "bitch."

 

When I was younger and sweeter (and yet still not that sweet!), I ran the student cafe of a Catholic boarding school on the Yukon Delta in an isolated Alaskan native village. We got a lot of... interesting... people through there. The guy who cooked was retired from the Navy. He sent food down to the cafe on the dumbwaiter, and I sent the utensils and stuff back up. Apparently, I forgot to send back a big spoon. Maybe more than once, I dunno. I hadn't heard anything about it. One night, Mike the cook came down to the cafe and yelled at me in front of the student servers and all the schoolkids: "You can't keep these down here! These belong up in the kitchen! That's my spoon!" In my stupefied, naive-girl state, I snapped, passed him the spoon, and said, "Well, just take it then!"

 

Alas, some students saw me blinking away tears afterwards (I had lived a sheltered life - what can I say?), and told the female principal of the school about the interaction. Whereupon SHE took it upon herself to talk to the old Navy cook about how he treated her staff. Whereupon Mike the cook apparently regaled all the young male teachers I worked with about what a BITCH I was. They found it quite amusing to report that to me, later on. They laughed and laughed and laughed. Thanks, guys.

 

That word, "bitch," was Mike's tool - his easy way to breeze through life and dismiss the appropriately-angered behavior of a woman in a way that he could not dismiss the same behavior coming from a man. And I still remember that incident very clearly, after 24+ years, which goes to show you something about the power of words.

 

If my guy friends had raised the bar - maybe challenged Mike, or defended me - it would have made me feel pretty good. But they were happy to play boys' club manners, and chortle along and laugh about the whole thing.

 

Mary

 

Hmmmm. Maybe you should consider employing the sort of ambi-sexual connotation that “bitch” has acquired of late and use the term “wanker bitch” on the next man who gets his jollies by being deMEANing. It might help with pulling the sting from your old wounds. After all, there’s nothing like slicing off you assailant’s head to get you over an aversion to sWORDs!

Or, you can do what I do… The next time someone – male OR female - gives you a ration of s**t, picture them naked with clown nose and make-up. They suddenly lose all power to hurt/annoy you.

[nancy]

Hmmmm. Maybe you should consider employing the sort of ambi-sexual connotation that “bitch” has acquired of late and use the term “wanker bitch” on the next man who gets his jollies by being deMEANing. It might help with pulling the sting from your old wounds. After all, there’s nothing like slicing off you assailant’s head to get you over an aversion to sWORDs!

Or, you can do what I do… The next time someone – male OR female - gives you a ration of s**t, picture them naked with clown nose and make-up. They suddenly lose all power to hurt/annoy you.

 

No. BITCH is not ambivalent. To use it against a male is to say he's acting like a woman. Wow, how awful.

 

Come on, maidens, mothers, and crones. Let us come up with a word that does not imply female attributes to males constitute an insult (personally, I think that might be a compliment), that does not cast slurs on their mothers, that does not refer to parts of their anatomy (because it is talent and not size that matters), and that does imply that their hormones are ruling what brains they have.

 

I don't know enough Spanish. But I think something like "macho" would do. "He's such a macho today"?

[geonni banner]

No. BITCH is not ambivalent. To use it against a male is to say he's acting like a woman. Wow, how awful.

 

Come on, maidens, mothers, and crones. Let us come up with a word that does not imply female attributes to males constitute an insult (personally, I think that might be a compliment), that does not cast slurs on their mothers, that does not refer to parts of their anatomy (because it is talent and not size that matters), and that does imply that their hormones are ruling what brains they have.

 

I don't know enough Spanish. But I think something like "macho" would do. "He's such a macho today"?

 

Ok, how 'bout this? A Japanese (Tokyo) slang term for a person who is a leech, worthless, contemptible, good-for-nothing user-and-abuser of others is "dani." It translates literally as "tick." as in the bug. Chances are no one (other than a Japanese street-punk) will know what you are saying - but that might be for the best. It is applied to men only, and hey!, you could combine it with wanker! Double whammy! A loser's loser - wanker-dani. I like it!

[sluj]

I do wish there were some derogatory name for a male person.

 

Whatever happened to jackass? Also refers to a perfectly nice animal, so it's on even footing.

[Ooky]

That word, "bitch," was Mike's tool - his easy way to breeze through life and dismiss the appropriately-angered behavior of a woman in a way that he could not dismiss the same behavior coming from a man. And I still remember that incident very clearly, after 24+ years, which goes to show you something about the power of words.

 

If my guy friends had raised the bar - maybe challenged Mike, or defended me - it would have made me feel pretty good. But they were happy to play boys' club manners, and chortle along and laugh about the whole thing.

 

I definitely see what you guys are complaining about here, but the vocabulary is not the cause, merely a symptom of the much larger and more deeply rooted problems in our society.

 

I work in a corporate environment, in the crux of several male-dominated professions - engineering, construction, government, and science. It is not fair, but a man who gets so angry that he loses control and yells, denigrates personnel, and inappropriately throws objects like books is somehow not seen as unstable. A woman, pushed to the same point, who has imo the much more understandable reaction of shedding a few angry tears, is DEFINITELY seen as not only unstable, but unable to function properly in the workplace, hysterical (word comes from uterus), irrational, emotional, and she loses power. A woman I work with who was going through a very rough patch and cried publicly more than once lost measureable standing in the company - it affected how others -- both male AND female -- perceived her abilities, and definitely lost work for her. She complained bitterly to me and others how unfair this was. It IS unfair, but in a way that really doesn't matter. The world is what it is, and those who realize this channel certain male approaches to things in some arenas, and get the heck out of sight if they really need to cry. But you don't need to become a man. It sucks, but actually, OWNING your inner bitch is another way to deal successfully with these issues. Men label us this way because deep down, a lot of them are terrified of the powerful woman archetype - the bitch.

 

I have never been anything but nice to people at work. But I get mad rather than sad, and very deliberate and quiet when something goes wrong. I project confidence and look for solutions. This has worked well for me. Some of my biggest challenges are coming up soon - it will be hard to project any sort of masculine vibe when in my third trimester, I'm pretty darn sure. And I am more emotional than normal. But at the same time, I'm counting on my very feminine inner BITCH to see me through. Yes, that's right, I guess I'm proud of her, and proud she has so much power she can apparently unnerve grown men in positions of power over me. But they still appreciate her, 'cause she gets the job done.

 

I guess I'm saying I don't personally need a word that will mean the same thing as bitch for a man. I don't think men scare women on a philosophical level (physically is different of course) nearly as much as we scare them. And if I was getting my feminist wish-list checked off, right now I'd settle first for equal pay for equal work, and a general move in our society towards a more gender-neutral way of existence in all realms.

 

And I may be alone here, but I personally see some positive, powerful aspects to the term bitch. I have seen it applied in an almost reverent fashion, and in a respectful fashion - remember male respect and acceptance is often rooted in put-downs. Not the same as when men (AND women) are spitting it out in total hate, which I agree can also occur.

 

No one here has mentioned that that the other "class" of male derogatory terms that doesn't specifically refer to the male anatomy or insult their mothers refer to them being homosexual. I think that's telling, too.

[geonni banner]

I definitely see what you guys are complaining about here, but the vocabulary is not the cause, merely a symptom of the much larger and more deeply rooted problems in our society.

 

I work in a corporate environment, in the crux of several male-dominated professions - engineering, construction, government, and science. It is not fair, but a man who gets so angry that he loses control and yells, denigrates personnel, and inappropriately throws objects like books is somehow not seen as unstable. A woman, pushed to the same point, who has imo the much more understandable reaction of shedding a few angry tears, is DEFINITELY seen as not only unstable, but unable to function properly in the workplace, hysterical (word comes from uterus), irrational, emotional, and she loses power. A woman I work with who was going through a very rough patch and cried publicly more than once lost measureable standing in the company - it affected how others -- both male AND female -- perceived her abilities, and definitely lost work for her. She complained bitterly to me and others how unfair this was. It IS unfair, but in a way that really doesn't matter. The world is what it is, and those who realize this channel certain male approaches to things in some arenas, and get the heck out of sight if they really need to cry. But you don't need to become a man. It sucks, but actually, OWNING your inner bitch is another way to deal successfully with these issues. Men label us this way because deep down, a lot of them are terrified of the powerful woman archetype - the bitch.

 

I have never been anything but nice to people at work. But I get mad rather than sad, and very deliberate and quiet when something goes wrong. I project confidence and look for solutions. This has worked well for me. Some of my biggest challenges are coming up soon - it will be hard to project any sort of masculine vibe when in my third trimester, I'm pretty darn sure. And I am more emotional than normal. But at the same time, I'm counting on my very feminine inner BITCH to see me through. Yes, that's right, I guess I'm proud of her, and proud she has so much power she can apparently unnerve grown men in positions of power over me. But they still appreciate her, 'cause she gets the job done.

 

I guess I'm saying I don't personally need a word that will mean the same thing as bitch for a man. I don't think men scare women on a philosophical level (physically is different of course) nearly as much as we scare them. And if I was getting my feminist wish-list checked off, right now I'd settle first for equal pay for equal work, and a general move in our society towards a more gender-neutral way of existence in all realms.

 

And I may be alone here, but I personally see some positive, powerful aspects to the term bitch. I have seen it applied in an almost reverent fashion, and in a respectful fashion - remember male respect and acceptance is often rooted in put-downs. Not the same as when men (AND women) are spitting it out in total hate, which I agree can also occur.

 

No one here has mentioned that that the other "class" of male derogatory terms that doesn't specifically refer to the male anatomy or insult their mothers refer to them being homosexual. I think that's telling, too.

 

I think you are absolutely right, and I suspect that most people view the bulk of this thread as a bit of badinage - word play, if you will. I certainly feel that way. Otherwise I would probably not have "come out to play." I feel for people who have genuinely been hurt by cruel treatment, - whether verbal or physical - and wish for healing for the OP. We've all got scars someplace - but we just gotta keep on truckin'!

[nancy]

Ooky, you are so young. I hope things keep going this well for you.

 

But I'm over twice your age. A man who stands up for what he knows is right is strong. A woman who does so is bitchy.

 

Men are assertive,: women are aggressive.

 

Women have to work at being cute. Yeah, we have to do twice the work in half the time. But we also have to be cute, and non-threatening. Too competent, and you're a bitch. Anything less, and you're there on some quota. I had a male contract manager tell the female writer and me, the female editor, that it was so sad that our company paid so little that only we women, with husbands earning "real" salaries, could take the jobs doing the documentation for his company. Otherwise, he'd get man, who would have done a much better job. And I couldn't kick him where he'd have noticed it because we did need the work.

 

Geeze, I remember all the negative stuff about Hillary Clinton, including her wearing pant suits. Gee, what about men in kilts? But Sarah Palin was so feminine in - hey - what looked to me like pant suits. There may have been skirts, but I sure don't remember any cocktail dresses. Was "a pit bull with lipstick" OK because she had a bunch of kids? And Hillary's pant suits "too " aggressive" because she had only one child?

 

I never got it. But, then again, that may be why I'm retired, instead of trying to walk that tightrope where I had to be cute and perky and professional and adult and competent but submissive.

[Ooky]

Nancy, I may be younger, but I agree with you! Except I guess my point is, given the choices, I'd rather be thought of as a competent bitch rather than merely a cute, nonthreatening girl (or an unstable emotional time-bomb), regardless of whether ANY of these choices are fair - which, of course, they're not. And it IS a fine line to walk - but I have certainly observed several women who have done it for a long time, and continue to do it, very successfully.

People may occasionally call them a bitch, but they also don't mess with them, and give them respect. Reappropriating the word and the concept, to me, provides positive power.

 

Is it easier to be a man? Almost certainly, in a lot of respects. Do I wish I was one? No.

[mbc1963]

A man who stands up for what he knows is right is strong. A woman who does so is bitchy.

 

Men are assertive,: women are aggressive.

 

Women have to work at being cute. Yeah, we have to do twice the work in half the time. But we also have to be cute, and non-threatening. Too competent, and you're a bitch. Anything less, and you're there on some quota.

 

My boss is about my age (46) and has even felt like she's lost jobs because she's kept her hair kind of short and spiky. (It really doesn't look good long: just limp and lifeless.) No "soft" hair is threatening, apparently. ::Sigh::

 

I'm a woman who's decidedly not cute. I'm the OP about the "Mike the Navy cook" guy - and please don't feel like you have to apologize to me about my 'wounds' on that. If it happened to me now - or even six months after it did happen - I would have taken Mike down several notches with some very well-planned, heated words. Stupid situations like that one are what's helped make me fully competent and strong enough to take on most any idiot who gets in my way.

 

The world does stand aside and let a "cute" woman pass much easier than a fully competent, ain't-trying-to-be-cute one. BUT... the world also doesn't honor the cute woman, or take her seriously. I'm absolutely happy to trade "cute" for "smart and competent." The men and wimpy women just have to learn to deal with a new kind of woman.

 

I wonder if younger women maybe don't feel this issue as heatedly because it's become less of an issue? Maybe the first round of big-mounthed, assertive women has actually cleared the way for the second round, so they don't have to put up with this same kind of crap? Maybe young men have worked with enough women in their lives to understand how to take direction from both genders, without feeling threatened?

 

Mary

[Dalesred]

Right. I'm english and I know about these things.

 

Wanker is definitely in the same category as bitch.

 

Here in Yorkshire, there's another term too. I've never seen it written down anywhere. It's a local dialect word for a clumsy, ineffectual, male. Unlike bitch or wanker, though it also contains a vague hint of affectionate exasperation. Nearly always used by women of men.

Rolls off the tongue nicely too.

 

It's buggalugs.

 

('Luggs' are ears and luggoils ear holes. I know a dog with splendid aural appendages. He's called Luggs, for obvious reasons.)

[hsnrs]

It really bothers me too. I refer to my girls as just that; or females; hardly ever the proper term. My DH says SOB lots around the house as his grandmom always said it and the family thought it was funny. I grew up in a very religious home and never heard that term in our house (other words that cut but not that one). Just a prude I guess.