pansmom Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 There's a guy who brings his dog, Lady, a gorgeous large golden retriever who is generally very docile and sweet, to the field where I also bring Vala. Vala and Lady like one another and generally a meeting goes like this - Vala sniffs Lady, Lady sniffs Vala, for a bit, then Lady makes cute sideways motion like she wants to play, and Vala trots off to sit for Lady's owner to pet her. (This is how it always goes between Vala and any dog. Vala often starts by sniffing the grass, then when the other dog doesn't press, Vala takes a semicircular route to the dog, they sniff and greet, and then Vala leaves the dog to go make nice with the owner, the interaction she clearly prefers.) Anyway today it went on as usual like this, but then the guy asked me if he could give Vala a treat because he was going to give Lady one. I said yes, because Lady is very polite and clearly under voice control, and Vala is generally good with well-behaved dogs (crazy ones that invade her space and jump on her make her nervous - but Lady up to this point had always seemed to be polite and well-mannered). Both Vala and Lady sit about three feet apart for the treat and are given the treat at the same time. Vala is a slow eater. Lady wolfs her treat down and then goes over to see about Vala's treat. Vala is still eating, slowly. Lady's face gets all the way next to Vala's treat, and Vala growls. Lady growls back. Both the guy and I say "eh eh" and the dogs separate. No bites, no barks, just some growling. Obviously it was a mistake to allow treating by someone else so close without really knowing the other dog or what the other owner would allow (I couldn't from my position block off his dog, but if it were me, I would've called my dog off before she got so close), so that won't happen again. My mistake as far as that goes. But was Vala wrong to growl or was Lady showing poor manners to get so close (or her owner poor judgment to let her)? Literally, Lady was being apparently gentle about it (showing no signs of aggression other than getting so close), but her nose was right next to Vala's, while Vala was eating. It sure looked like her intention was to take what was left of Vala's treat. After the fact, the guy said he had never seen Lady get so close to another eating dog before, he said she's usually much more laid back. But he didn't apologize and he didn't call her off while it was happening and it wasn't clear after the fact if he thought it was Vala who was poorly behaved. I shouldn't worry about Vala's behavior in this situation, should I? I know she originally had a problem with resource guarding me from other animals (which she doesn't do anymore), but I've never seen her guard food from another dog, and even when the cats approach her kennel while she's eating - I don't let them come too close - she's never growled. Although before I started feeding her in her kennel I did see her eye them and/or run Nyxie off, which is why I feed her in her kennel now where they can't bother her. But in this situation her behavior seems totally called for. And immediately after this situation, Vala and Lady were on good terms again, with no signs of aggression. So here's my question: Vala's behavior was understandable in this instance, yes? I don't want to be biased and make the mistake of spoiling her or not fixing a problem... Other than obviously no treats with strange dogs anymore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Eh, I don't think it was a big deal at all. Just two dogs being dogs. I wouldn't even call it a confrontation if it was two growls that stopped with a verbal correction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I think you have it figured out just fine. Vala's growl SHOULD have been enough warning for Lady. Lady acted inappropriately, by pushing in, and her owner is the one who should be concerned about future interactions like that. The fact that Vala did NOT do more than growl is a Very Good Thing! diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Dogs will be dogs. Suggestion -- **TINY** treats!! One gulp, and back to what you were doing kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Suggestion -- **TINY** treats!! One gulp, and back to what you were doing kind of thing. Yeah, that's a good point. Only I think these *WERE* one gulp treats... for Lady!!! She's a big golden, like 80-90 pounds! Poor lil' 28.5 pound Vala was chomping at it, trying to break it apart, and eat it in parts! Some of it fell out of her mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I don't think either dog is at fault. They're just being dogs and that is how they communicate. If anyone is at fault, it is the people. I would never let another dog approach mine while eating. Two of my three dogs would have done a lot worse than just growl at the approaching dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I don't think either dog is at fault. They're just being dogs and that is how they communicate. If anyone is at fault, it is the people. I would never let another dog approach mine while eating. Two of my three dogs would have done a lot worse than just growl at the approaching dog. That's a good point. Maybe I should've called this thread "which owner is at fault here"! It's actually quite amazing that Vala let her get so close before she even growled - their noses were almost touching - but unfortunately I wasn't in a physical position where I could stop Lady, and I didn't think to correct her, don't know if that would've worked anyway, not my dog. But yes I know I made the mistake of trusting the guy to handle both dogs (I was standing a few feet off). Lesson learned, it made me really nervous to see the growling (especially with such a large dog, I mean what if Vala had actually provoked her to do worse?), so I am not going to allow another person to treat her close to other dogs, too many variables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Sounds like my teenage sons arguing over buffalo chicken wings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 it made me really nervous to see the growling (especially with such a large dog, I mean what if Vala had actually provoked her to do worse Hi, Then you would have delt with it, right? If you get 'really nervous' that can escalate a problem that wasn't a problem....You know this isn't something you'll let happen in the future, so no harm, no foul, lesson learned-LOL! Try not to worry about every little thing, just relax and enjoy spending time with Vala=) Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody & Duchess Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Your dog can read you - try not to act nervous. I help train shelter dogs. I have found that there is an almost universal sound that means- okay, cut it out. Spelled like- auch- well probably not.... sounds like when you have the car going but turn the key over again. Quick sound-I use it and usually get the dogs attention immediately. Stuff will happen, keep training Vala and believe in both of your training. You become more confident, she becomes more confident- and remember, nobody is perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 The possibility of Vala getting into a dog fight, or breaking up said dog fight, when the other dog is a 90 pound dog, is what made me - momentarily - really nervous. But don't worry, I know better than to show my nervousness after having a severely fear aggressive dog, going to a veterinary behaviorist for her, doing tons of behavior modifcation, and then later volunteering for these last several months for the adoption program at the local in animal control facility myself. Vala is not fear aggressive, thank goodness, but she definitely does copy my behavior (she's great about that, I can see her looking at me, at least every 30 seconds), so I know to model nonchalance and confidence at all times. I've come a long way since my first dog, projecting calm confidence is actually second nature at this point. That is probably part of what inhibited me from doing anything when I saw the potential situation coming (Lady nosing toward her). I know the sound you're talking about, C&D, and yeah in retrospect I could've used it... But this particular situation won't be happening again, so no harm, no foul! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody & Duchess Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Please take my suggestions as just that- I am not an expert. Volunteering, like you, has added some funny stories though. I usually get matched with either the big dogs or the problem ones. (Probably because I am 5'10"). Sometimes when I get a particular handfull - I talked to myself out loud -" Okay bud- we are going to do what I want to do....I am the boss here and you have the wrong person at the end of this leash to give grief to....I am on to you" Then I might even sing to the dog to settle them down. So, between my self talk and singing- I look like a nut. But it seems to work. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 On topic: I agree with everyone else's suggestions, dogs will be dogs. I think you are probably also a bit overly worried, not that anyone can blame you b/c of issues you have had to deal with in the past. I think it sounds like Vala was perfectly correct to give a growl there, mine would have all done the same thing. Off topic: ... - I talked to myself out loud -" Okay bud- we are going to do what I want to do....I am the boss here and you have the wrong person at the end of this leash to give grief to....I am on to you" Then I might even sing to the dog to settle them down. So, between my self talk and singing- I look like a nut. But it seems to work. Good luck. Sorry, but this made me laugh! We have a cat groomer that comes to the vet clinic I work at and is always giving herself pep-talks out loud, it cracks me up. So here she will have a cat, with a grooming hood on who won't move because can't see and is pissed, growling and making all the other evil cat noises and here is this small skinny gal saying, 'Oh you think you're so tough, you don't scare me.' 'Now lets work together to trim your bum up since you're too fat to wash yourself.' Or my favorite when a cat will try to strick with a paw...'Oh, good try, but you missed again.' I guess I have a sort of evil sense of humor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Sorry, but this made me laugh! We have a cat groomer that comes to the vet clinic I work at and is always giving herself pep-talks out loud, it cracks me up. So here she will have a cat, with a grooming hood on who won't move because can't see and is pissed, growling and making all the other evil cat noises and here is this small skinny gal saying, 'Oh you think you're so tough, you don't scare me.' 'Now lets work together to trim your bum up since you're too fat to wash yourself.' Or my favorite when a cat will try to strick with a paw...'Oh, good try, but you missed again.' I guess I have a sort of evil sense of humor nope, I'm with you, that's HILARIOUS! I agree with everyone else's suggestions, dogs will be dogs. I think you are probably also a bit overly worried, not that anyone can blame you b/c of issues you have had to deal with in the past. I think it sounds like Vala was perfectly correct to give a growl there, mine would have all done the same thing. Yeah, you're absolutely right! My past experience makes me wary - obviously - and before this week I've only ever seen Vala growl once, and that was when my brother-in-law's dachsund/hound mix was trying to hump her (he's neutered, but still), which was obviously warranted! In most situations now Vala is generally very peaceful and calm, and I just wanted to make sure Vala is as normal as I've been thinking all this time and that her behavior was warranted and she is not dog "reactive." (The one downfall of my past experience is that I honestly have little knowledge of what is NORMAL dog behavior! Weird problem to have, but that's where I am at this point!) Anyway in general Vala always wags her tail and looks at me for permission to go see when she sees other dogs so at a distance she isn't at all. She likes them best when they are polite and stay out of her space or do lots of sniffing and communication at a distance befor e they come see her (then she loves them). But three times now in the two months I've had her, I've heard her growl, and it's always about other (impolite) dogs invading her space. She growled just barely audibly again this morning, when the neighbors' dog was coming at her in a beeline running at her, and her growl caused the dog to bypass her and stay out of her space, and all was fine. She seems to be more confident now, instead of running away and hiding behind my legs she is holding her ground in these situations and telling the other dogs (with a growl) to give her space. It's possible she feels better and more confident so she's standing up for herself. But I am going to watch her and if necessary try to keep her out of situations that make her uncomfortable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 I agree with the folk who say that this was an example of one dog "correcting" another with a growl. And that "small treats" would avoid the situation in the future. On another note, though, you said that both you and the other dog's owner corrected your dogs with an "eh eh" when they growled at each other. My trainer has told me that she doesn't think humans should correct dogs for growling at another dog. You don't want them to skip this step, and proceed straight to snapping, do you? Yet the message they're likely to get from a correction is that it's the behavior (growling) that's what you disapprove of - not the emotion (irritation) they sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted October 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 I agree with the folk who say that this was an example of one dog "correcting" another with a growl. And that "small treats" would avoid the situation in the future. On another note, though, you said that both you and the other dog's owner corrected your dogs with an "eh eh" when they growled at each other. My trainer has told me that she doesn't think humans should correct dogs for growling at another dog. You don't want them to skip this step, and proceed straight to snapping, do you? Yet the message they're likely to get from a correction is that it's the behavior (growling) that's what you disapprove of - not the emotion (irritation) they sense. Yeah that's a good point, I know. But that morning the dogs looked like they might engage, they were locked in eye contact and growling and were not onleash to be able to pull them away. Me and Lady's owner both responded that way, I think because we were trying to make sure they didn't engage. I am not teaching Vala growling is bad. The first time I saw her growl, at my brother-in-law's dog, when he tried to hump her, I didn't correct her. And the day after the incident with Lady when Bebe, another dog that Vala is friends with, did a beeline toward her and Vala growled, I didn't correct her. That was because there was no engagement, Vala's growl kept the dog out of her space and there was no potential fight. The next day when Bebe did her beeline (it's a play behavior she has which causes another dog who is about Vala's size who she plays with more often to go into play-mode) she stayed just out of Vala's personal space, far enough so that Vala didn't have to growl, so apparently the day before Vala got the message across. And there's been no growling since the first time with Bebe... I've been taking pains to praise Vala for staying calm with other dogs around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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