Jess1025 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Well, I'm new to herding. I have my older BC that I also plan on trying out but I adopted one of the ACD/BC mixes from Sea4th and was wondering if anyone had any opinions on putting him on sheep. I just bought 2 Babydoll Southdowns to start a flock but I'm sure we'll need a bigger flock to work with so if anyone knows of any trainers in the NW PA or NE OH area, that'd be great too. And any advice for a beginner would be helpful. I have experience training, just not in herding.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 "scuse me, but shouldn't we see some pictures first, before we can reply to your question? Anyway, I'm not sure about anyone out in our area -- maybe we can get some feedback here, but 50 miles SW of Cleveland, in Lorain co., there is an all-breed herding place. She's been giving lessons for years and it might be worth a trip a couple of times a month to take a lesson, then come back and practice on your own sheep. Hopefully, within the next 6 or 7 months, I'll have my own sheep, at which time you'd be welcome to come out and work your dogs at my place. Not to nag, but PICTURES PLEASE!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess1025 Posted October 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 I'll have to look into that... The most recent pictures are up in the gallery!!! I'll try and get some more soon but my camera is not the greatest, I'm very disappointed with it and I rarely get any pictures I am happy with... I'm going to take him in with the sheep today, on leash, maybe I can get some decent photos and I'll post them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 My suggestion would be to try to find a trainer that can really teach you the mechanics so that you can step in and help your dog if needed. We started with ACD/BC Crosses, still have a couple hanging around. As I find takers I've been placing them in low requirement working situations on cattle, the people taking them are reporting back that they love them and use them daily but they just did not develop enough feel to handle sheep or cattle the way we wanted them to. I'm sure in big part was due to the genetics or lack there of behind them another big part was our failure of understanding what we were trying to teach them. The biggest challenge for ours was to develop a good clean flank, and that lack of a flank is a killer when you want to be able to position a dog, IMO. Following the path of letting them work and hope that it will develop just didn't happen, they just kept getting tighter, more direct and fought harder to get to the sheep once we tried to help. I'm kicking myself now, I always wonder if it would have made a difference in them if I would have just helped them early on, as soon as it was determine that a release to cover was not going come natural, to find the right place to flank instead of letting them bust things up waiting for the light to turn on. Looking back, knowing what I know now, they told us right off the bat on first introduction to stock that they would easily get drawn in. I don't think that allowing it and accidently encouraging it helped. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Deb What you said is very interesting to me. Could you describe it more? My brain must be tired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Tea, what do you want me to describe, what I am looking for or what the dogs did that I was not happy with? Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess1025 Posted October 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 I suppose I should go get a book and read up on this more before before I jump into anything since I am totally lost now haha Just the terminology I guess either that or I'm just not processing what you said... The whole flank thing is what has me boggled lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 I suppose I should go get a book and read up on this more before before I jump into anything since I am totally lost now haha Just the terminology I guess either that or I'm just not processing what you said... The whole flank thing is what has me boggled lol Sorry to do that to you Yes, learn as much as you can before you jump in with your dog. When you do jump in with your dog you want to have a good idea of what is going on and what your trying to accomplish. What your getting ready to walk into is simular to trying to take a cow horse into the cutting pen. It will work great if the horse is trained and you know what to expect and how to ride. Not so great if neither of you have an understanding, yeah the horse may come by tracking the cow naturally, and the horse may keen up, you may stumble onto some neat stuff. But then all of a sudden the horse get's some confidence and charges the cow, then it does it again and again maybe even biting the cow. An expirenced trainer would have stopped it, or not allowed it to happen a second time...why? the horse looses his working advantage and becomes the aggressor instead of the controller, the horse needs to stay out in a position so that he can play defense but also still able to move the cow where needed if needed. Reading livestock is also a huge factor, I've been doing alot of reading on Low Stress Livestock Management, some are teaching it just to people, some are also incorporating dogs. The stockmen has to have an understanding before he can hold the dog to the same premise. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Deb expand on both, please. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Tea, It's the feel and the reactions that are triggered by that feel that I am looking at. In so many cases the dog would drive in harder when the stock moved, sorta try to stop it by catching it vs. utilizing feel and presence to stop it at distance. In many cases my border collies will try that option, the "oh shit I gotta get them stopped" and kick out and get into their path to stop them, the crosses and cattle dogs were not as apt to try that option. I keep thinking about it, I think balance and rate hinges on the dogs ability to use his presence to control or hold the livestock, but he has to acknowledge the effect of his presence in the right way, basically realizing that the pressure of his body is causing the motion and how to change his body position to apply or release pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Tea, It's the feel and the reactions that are triggered by that feel that I am looking at. In so many cases the dog would drive in harder when the stock moved, sorta try to stop it by catching it vs. utilizing feel and presence to stop it at distance. In many cases my border collies will try that option, the "oh shit I gotta get them stopped" and kick out and get into their path to stop them, the crosses and cattle dogs were not as apt to try that option. I keep thinking about it, I think balance and rate hinges on the dogs ability to use his presence to control or hold the livestock, but he has to acknowledge the effect of his presence in the right way, basically realizing that the pressure of his body is causing the motion and how to change his body position to apply or release pressure. Thanks That is very helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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