Promising response to IVM/DOXY Rx for Vala, HW+ BC rescue

[pansmom]

So Vala's been on doxycycline for 6 weeks, and she's been on Heartgard for one month (just a once a month treatment, nothing more than that, because of the collie sensitivity to ivermectin). Today was her first day off the doxy (she goes back on in two weeks, the cycling is supposed to work better than leaving her on it). Today was also the day she was supposed to get her second Heartgard. I took her to the vet this morning to get a steroid shot as planned, before taking the Heartgard, because last time the Heartgard seemed to make her cough a lot, and the coughing only stopped when we started giving oral steroids.

 

So we go in, she gets the shot, takes the Heartgard, we ride a few places in the car with her sitting in the back as usual, she seemed fine, I gave her a treat when I got back into the car from the grocery store, she ate it, seemed fine, except that when I got out of the grocery store she was lying on the seat instead of sitting up as usual watching for me out the window. Then when we got home, maybe an hour, two hours at most after she took the Heartgard, she had a coughing fit where she kept coughing up white phlegm (in her kennel, and then on the floor in the living room, in the kitchen). Weird thing was it wasn't food, it was just phlegm, and she was licking it up afterwards. Also this whole time her tail was wagging. She was not upset. She actually didn't seem to feel bad apart from the hacking. And the hacking only lasted 15 minutes, after which I offered her some water, which she took, and since then she has just been resting (well, I am seeing to it that she is resting - I have to stop her from playing - keep her on a leash when we go outside into the backyard to potty for example, otherwise she will chase squirrels).

 

Before I left the vet they told me I could call the emergency vet if there was a problem but I wasn't worried because they watched her for me at the vet last time after we administered her first Heartgard all day and she did great without a reaction - until a day later when she started coughing until we started giving her steroids - so I didn't expect a problem this time because presumably she had more microfilariae last time and we had given her the steroid shot ahead of time. And her regular vet, whom I love, told me that he had never seen a dog respond as quickly to the IVM/DOXY combo treatment as Vala seemed to be doing if we assumed that the coughing that first time was related to adult heartworm death, so he didn't think it was -- although he said it was theoretically possible, he just hadn't seen the treatment work like it was supposed to. However I just called the emergency vet and they told me all the emergency vet would do in this case is give her a steroid shot - which she already has gotten - so they didn't recommend we bring her in unless her gums were white and she was showing other symptoms of shock (which she's not). And then they told me that hacking up clear phlegm is a definite sign of adult heartworm death. So it seems that maybe Vala is responding really well to the IVM/DOXY treatment and they told me to keep her quiet and have her on a leash outside at all times and not let her interact with the cats because clearly the adult heartworms are dying? So I'm excited to talk to her regular vet on Monday, hopefully he will say the same thing and we can maybe reconfigure our treatment plans to use this method entirely instead of as a pretreatment before Immiticide.

 

I'd love to hear from anyone else who has used the new IVM/DOXY treatment, so far I haven't heard from anyone - but if this actually works like it's theoretically supposed to, it's so much easier on the dog than the Immiticide, not to mention cheaper! So that would be awesome. I really would rather take a safer route than Immiticide. Mojo, por favor!

 

ETA: Other than this, Vala is doing really wonderfully, behaviorally she is a dream come true for me, using a variety of methods from positive reinforcement of ignoring cats to time outs to (finally, as a kind of coup de grace to the last remnants of the behavior, when all else failed) soft clapping as a deterrant, she no longer RG's me from the cats or tries to control their movements, she actually turns her head away to ignore them (unless Nyxie is engaging her in a game, which Nyxie is wont to do, like for example by taunting her with paws under a door or dropping things on the floor or running by her noisily over and over until Vala gets up and goes to see what she's doing), and we have almost worked through all her other minor quirks in only six weeks. I recently taught her "down," which she is very proud to show off to anyone who will watch, and she is super great about walking by my side off leash, basically I'm teaching her heel now. Her recall is awesome. Oh and before the vet trip today she was actually showing interest in the Frisbee! Not catching it but chasing after it and picking it up and worrying it. I am hoping to eventually make her so interested in Frisbee that she will ignore squirrels (you'd think it would be more rewardig to actually CATCH something, but this may be a pipe dream, haha), and of course while we are working on heartworms all this other stuff goes on hold.

[Sue R]

No help from me whatsoever, just very best wishes for you both!

[flyer]

Yes, best wishes this all keeps working so well and quickly!!

[Izzysdad]

Same here, I got nothing buy love for you and Vala!!! Tobey and Izzy say get well very soon, squirrels are the bestest things in the world!!!!!

 

Tim

[Journey]

Sounds like she is doing well under this protocol, good luck!

 

(just a once a month treatment, nothing more than that, because of the collie sensitivity to ivermectin)

 

I thought Vala was a BC or BC mix?

[pansmom]

Thanks everyone!!! No more coughing up anything tonight, now that she's spent the evening resting, thank goodness. She seems to feel better. Keeps staring at the door, as if to will me to take her outside. I told her squirrels is sleepin now honey it's bedtime. And she went to bed.

 

And oh, yes, to Journey or anyone else I may have confused - yes, Vala is a BC! I mean, we don't know for sure, no papers, rescue dog, but she sure acts like a BC (as far as I can tell anyhow!!!) and even looks like one. I mean come on.

 

 

 

But the ivermectin sensitivity, from what I understand, is across all the collie-type breeds with white feet - lassie collies and border collies - so I said collie to imply both. Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear!

[Maralynn]

But the ivermectin sensitivity, from what I understand, is across all the collie-type breeds with white feet - which lassie collies and border collies both share - so I said collie to imply both. Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear!

 

Glad to hear things are going well for her!

 

Actually no BC has been found to have the sensitivity. Collies and Aussies, yes. It's a common misconception (even among vets) that BCs are sensitive - there is a sticky at the top of the health and genetics section with more info on the subject.

[pansmom]

Actually no BC has been found to have the sensitivity. Collies and Aussies, yes. It's a common misconception (even among vets) that BCs are sensitive - there is a sticky at the top of the health and genetics section with more info on the subject.

 

Hmmm. I read that sticky. And a lot of other stuff too. Maybe I was being overly cautious (that wouldn't be surprising, considering my feelings about her), but I came away with a no one knows for sure, better safe than sorry, let's not risk it, vibe. (Maybe because I *don't* know Vala's ancestry for sure? Not sure. Don't remember.) But for whatever reason the vet agreed we didn't want to give her more than the dose that Heartgard provides. I'll be sure to reread the sticky before I talk to him on Monday about revising our treatment plan though.

[Journey]

But the ivermectin sensitivity, from what I understand, is across all the collie-type breeds with white feet - lassie collies and border collies - so I said collie to imply both. Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear!

 

Please go search the boards, I know either Mark or Denise has a wonderful post about the MDR1 (Ivermectin Toxicity). I have never before seen or heard anything about "white feet" though. Where do these misconceptions/myths get started??

[Journey]

Here's the link that speaks about the MDR1 and Invermectin.

[Maralynn]

Please go search the boards, I know either Mark or Denise has a wonderful post about the MDR1 (Ivermectin Toxicity). I have never before seen or heard anything about "white feet" though. Where do these misconceptions/myths get started??

 

The white feet comes from a vet saying "white on feet, do not treat" when giving out HW preventative.

[pansmom]

Thanks all, for correcting me on the white feet saying! My memory failed me. But just to clarify, my vet didn't say the above^^. He did mention the old "white on feet" saying but he did not say "do not treat." He and everything else reliable I read (including the sticky) was clear that it was okay to give any dog - lassie collie, too - the HW preventative. Here's the quote from the health sticky that says that (I just reread it):

Even if your Border Collie does have this mutation, the heartworm preventive dose has been shown to be sufficiently low to not elicit a reaction in known sensitive Collies.

Armed with this knowledge, rest assured, I have had zero fear giving Vala a monthly HW preventative as part of the DOXY/IVM treatment, and have been doing so!

 

The problem is that the DOXY/IVM standard is the amount of IVM in a HW preventative once a week instead of once a month, or 4x the amount that is definitely okay for a sensitive dog, and I am not comfortable giving her that amount. And my reason is actually something I read in the sticky:

UPDATE as of 11/15/06: From Katy Robertson at UC Davis, where the test is performed: "We have tested 362 Border Collies (not controlled for relatedness) to date and have seen the MDR1 mutation in only 1 dog. This dog was a rescue with unknown pedigree; therefore, we didn't include the dog in our findings."

Here, the example of a rescue dog with unknown pedigree is thrown out of the findings, because they couldn't know that she was a purebred border collie, which makes sense when drawing conclusions about purebred BCs. But for me, the owner of another rescue dog with unknown pedigree, the outlier got me thinking. Obviously this dog must have looked and acted like a BC or else she wouldn't have been included in the study. Also, if you read further down in that thread, posters discuss German papers etc. which discovered the mutation at low incidence in studies that are not as carefuly as the UC Davis one in determining breed purity. So I decided it would be better to err on the side of caution and not give my rescue of unknown pedigree any higher dose than what we're sure would be okay.

 

Again, sorry to echo a myth/misperception. It's been a couple months since I did my homework, and the details have gotten vague. But what I'm doing here is just basically erring on the side of caution. It's a perfectly reasonable stance (albeit, I'll admit, cautious). If it comes down to choosing between the standard DOXY/IVM treatment (with 4x the definitely okay amount of IVM monthly) or the Immiticide, I may reconsider, by consulting further with my vet -- whom I very much admire and respect for his willingness to check the latest research on any number of subjects -- but right now I'm just happy that our current, very cautious, strategy seems to be making a difference.