Help my new friend CGC

[Jlacy]

Whoa! why not just let him learn to trust you then get out and about for all your desensitizing? You're doing an awful lot with a dog who you really don't know yet.

 

 

I think I have a pretty good handle on who this guy is and how hard I can push it. I'm not convinced training is so black and white and more likely that it depends on the dog. It's like training a command, some dogs can't hold their attention span for more than a minute, some 2 minutes, some 5 or longer. I think once you know your dogs failure points you can work at the "edge" of those failure parameters. Unless you see a failure point you can't correct his actions or yours to get him to the next step.

 

I also think, the more you do with your new dog, the higher level of trust you build. The more variety of things you do adds confidence for the dog. I generally like to start this desensitizing much earlier in a dogs life span. Jax is a year old, he's at least 6 months behind so it's time to go. Go meaning, push it to the edge of his failure point and then re-train from there forward.

 

A good example for Jax were the electric doors in that video, day 1 he was terrified, bolted, shut down, hit the end of his leash, yelped. Now, all he does is fold his ears back and we walk right in. We worked on this only a few times and he's reasonably comfortable now. I found his fail point, then we moved back far away from the doors then worked our way closer and closer and now he's just fine. There is no science to all this as you know, just know your dog and don't force anything on him and he'll come around just fine.

 

Jax wouldn't get in the car at first. I didn't pick him up or pull on him. I lined the floor board of the car with hot dog bites and he "ate" his way in. We did that 2 or three times, then I got in the car and encouraged him to "come". Long story short, Jax jumps right in now with no issue. I encouraged him, not forced him which would have built barriers between Jax and I. He overcame his fear on his own which builds his own self confidence and he learns to trust what I ask him to do is safe. I try to motivate and encourage my dogs out of their comfort zone when working on the edge of their failure points.

 

All this is all new to Jax, but he's showing good results to a variety of new situations. The more situations I can put him in, the better he should respond down the line. The more I can take him away from the house, then bring him back, the more he associates my house as being "his" home. Finally, the more chaotic the situation he comes "from" during the desensitizing, the more relaxed he becomes in the home. Jax learns that home is quiet and safe and he has a point of reference from the outside real world.

 

There are just many reasons to move forward on this and not wait. The very last thing in the world I would do is ruin this dog.

[desertranger]

I've been raising BCs for almost 40 years and I can tell you that you can puish them too far and once they've gone over the edge it can be a lot of work to bring them back. I've had that happen a couple of times without even realizing it.

 

I know when Jin has reached his limit and after that I leave him be or work on something else. Don't forget you can confuse a dog easily and it's up to the handler to make sure that doesn't happen. In Jin's case when he gets confused giving him a "That'll do" releases him and now I can give him a new command.

[ejano]

I have a new BC of just a few days ago and have been working with him ever since. I would describe him as very reserved and very jumpy.

His name is Jax and he will not leave my side, wherever I go, he goes. Unless I'm within 10 feet of his food, he won't even eat. He's insecure and definitively unsure about almost everything. He's 1 years old and a rescue of unknown history. He's a really sweet, sensitive guy that's is just not sure of much of anything. Even when I was teaching basic commands I thought he was afraid to make a mistake, or the panic wouldn't let him focus on the command.

 

What can I do to help him relax?

 

Thanks

 

 

You've got an interesting approach. We did the exact opposite. When we brought Ladybug home at age 4 from the pound she was so traumatized from being in the SPCA for less than a week that she couldn't stop shaking.

 

We didn't ask her to do anything in the way of commands. Ken sat with her in a dim room in his recliner for hours until she stopped shaking. (To this day, when things go wrong in her world, she heads for that recliner). Other than taking her to the vet for a wellness check, we just let her slowly emerge from her shell...didn't expose her to other people, noises or unusual things until she got used to us and to her immediate surroundings and until we knew her better. It took at least a week for her to calm down, start eating normally and to begin trust us. And yes, she wouldn't eat until we ate, and stuck like Ken to a burr. She was trying to do everything she could to please us so that we wouldn't send her back to hell. As she calmed down and learned to trust us, we found an exceedingly well trained dog that already knew more than we could possibly teach her.

 

Months later when we were getting ready to go on vacation, I talked with various boarding kennels and asked if I could bring her over for half a day just to let her know what we'd leave her and then come back to get her. They all thought I was nuts, except one. I finally reached an operator who was a BC person, having raised, trained and trialed herding dogs for many years so she understood why we were trying to reassure Ladybug. It worked out fine - and though they didn't mingle, having a few other BCs around helped Ladybug, I think.

 

Any puppy book will advise you to take it very slow with a new pup - and at a year, your dog is still a pup. Each experience imprints on him, either positively or negatively. And you want to all to be as positive as possible. If you take it slowly and let what he is and knows emerge, then you'll have a good starting point.

 

By dragging the dog everywhere before he's ready, your putting too much on him. If he's just a year old, he may not have seen these things before; add that to the adjustment of the new home, new people, new food, and he's on overload. Think of it this way -- how you would feel if you were from a very small town then dropped into NYC and expected to cope...or vice versa. You've never been away from pavement and all of a sudden you're in the wilderness...how would you feel? Your pup is just as bewildered.

[mbc1963]

All this is all new to Jax, but he's showing good results to a variety of new situations. The more situations I can put him in, the better he should respond down the line. The more I can take him away from the house, then bring him back, the more he associates my house as being "his" home. Finally, the more chaotic the situation he comes "from" during the desensitizing, the more relaxed he becomes in the home. Jax learns that home is quiet and safe and he has a point of reference from the outside real world.

 

There are just many reasons to move forward on this and not wait. The very last thing in the world I would do is ruin this dog.

 

You could be right, but...

 

A lot of us on these boards have had the experience of pushing a dog too far, too fast - and losing ground because of it.

We all wanted to do as much as we could, as fast as we could, with our dogs. Reactive ones, too. We all learned the hard way.

 

Myself, I found the exact opposite of what you say above. The more chaotic the situation Buddy came "from" during the desensitizing, the less trusting he was of me and his new home. Deliberately creating stress in a dog so that he appreciates the relatively low stress environment of his home doesn't seem fair or right, to me. When I learned to set up situations where Buddy could have increasingly lengthy periods of calm with no stress, I learned to begin to establish trust between me and the dog.

 

I don't see any absolutely essential reasons for moving forward so quick quick quick. Why would a dog need to get his CGC just two weeks after adoption? I do see the potential for unnecessarily perpetuating fear and reactivity and delaying full acclimation.

 

Mary

[ziggzmom]

Hi,

 

Are you sure you really want help or do you just want people to agree with you? You posted concerns about your dog and asked for help, yet when people give you suggestions that differ from what you are doing, you sound like you don't really want to hear it. You keep saying you're in no rush, yet you can't seem to push Jax into very high stress situations fast enough.

 

This isn't your Aussie, this is Jax....He's a different dog, different breed, different temperment. He's a year old and sometimes missing that early socialization time is impossible to overcome(sometimes not). My daughter was a puppy raiser for Guide Dogs and had a lab puppy that could handle things in her environment at 6 months old that most of my adult dogs would have trouble dealing with. She was born with an incredibly solid temperment.

 

There is a lot of border collie experience here, and so far, everyone has pretty much expressed the same opinion to you....Maybe you could just think about it and consider there just might be some merit to some of it(even though it differes from what you think). Always be willing to add new 'tools' to your trainers bag of tricks=)

 

Janet

[Jlacy]

You guys are right, he needs time to settle in. I may have overstated the severity here too. Anyway, he did very very well yesterday and the only thing left to teach now I think is Stay. Great job Jax!

 

Thanks to everyone for your input.

 

~j

[MicheleS.]

Hi Jlacy, welcome!

 

I can't say enough about how much I've learned from reading here. Loads of knowledge from people with much more experience than me with this breed. Chase is my first BC. He is shy and sensitive and extremely aware of everything in his environment. He is so completely different from the GSD's and aussies I've been used to. After reading the ton of information here, I took a step back and re-evaluated how I was handling him. I most definitely needed to gain his trust and build his confidence and let him experience new things when he is calm and comfortable.

Chasey-boy has come a long way since then. (This is a dog who was terrified of walking through a door!)

Chase is now able to very comfortably participate in his obedience and agility classes and excels (he really thinks he's "all-that" too). He's not 100% yet in every situation, he might never be, but I'm thrilled with his progress and seeing him look so proud when he thinks he overcome a situation makes me so happy

And I'm glad I had enough sense to listen to those more experienced. I'm learning alot too.

 

Keep reading and good luck!

 

Michele

& Gypsy (the fearless pushy bossy aussie)

& Chase (the sweet shy BC, but becoming more pushy every day)

[Jlacy]

Hi Jlacy, welcome!

 

I can't say enough about how much I've learned from reading here. Loads of knowledge from people with much more experience than me with this breed. Chase is my first BC. He is shy and sensitive and extremely aware of everything in his environment. He is so completely different from the GSD's and aussies I've been used to. After reading the ton of information here, I took a step back and re-evaluated how I was handling him. I most definitely needed to gain his trust and build his confidence and let him experience new things when he is calm and comfortable.

Chasey-boy has come a long way since then. (This is a dog who was terrified of walking through a door!)

Chase is now able to very comfortably participate in his obedience and agility classes and excels (he really thinks he's "all-that" too). He's not 100% yet in every situation, he might never be, but I'm thrilled with his progress and seeing him look so proud when he thinks he overcome a situation makes me so happy

And I'm glad I had enough sense to listen to those more experienced. I'm learning alot too.

 

Keep reading and good luck!

 

Michele

& Gypsy (the fearless pushy bossy aussie)

& Chase (the sweet shy BC, but becoming more pushy every day)

 

 

Hi Michele, you are soo right.

 

My Aussie and Border combo is exactly the same.

 

If I had to characterize the two by music genre:

 

My Aussie is Metallica

My Border is Snoop doggy dog

 

Actually, I wouldn't call the border shy, but cautious. He approaches new people slowly but always moves forward like he needs to check them out first. Strangers can walk right by him and he doesn't even flinch. It's only when they want to interact with him that he takes it slower. Cautious is a better word and then sits quietly for petting from total strangers. He acts the same way around dogs.

 

My Aussie is 180* of that. Never met a stranger, LOVES ALL dogs big and small. Shy or cautious are two words never used to describe her.

 

Mentally they are different as well. Aussie was super quick to learn. She does her commands with real snap. Jax is more slow moving and it took a bit longer to train sit and down.

Jax is more perceptive, he watches TV, is self aware, he's a planner before he reacts, looks for airplanes flying in the sky etc etc. The Aussie is able to reverse commands on her own and string my actions to her actions, but for her, the shortest distance is a straight line and she couldn't care less where the sound comes from or who's in the mirror or what's on TV.

 

My Aussie is dog and people reactive, the border like dogs ok, but more focused on people than dogs and not reactive much at all to either. Most focus I've seen is on a tennis ball than anything else but is obsessed with me.

 

The Aussie is hyper, the border is laid back. The Aussie is all about her, the border is all about me.

 

The border is more consistent in his personality, the Aussie can be all over the place, moody, pouty, smiling, lazy bouncy. Takes life less serious I think than the Border.

 

Both are equally as sweet and gentle. My Aussie is a rough and tumble player. The Border wouldn't play at first with her, but now is giving her a run for her money. Both are happy dogs, neither have shown any signs of aggression towards any dogs or people, EVER.

 

If I wanted to win friends and influence people, I'd take the Aussie, if I had to walk 100 miles with a dog, the border.

 

Yes, they are two very different dogs and both fun and interesting in there own right. I love them both equally and could never pick between them. But you know that, you have both too

[Ooky]

If I had to characterize the two by music genre:

 

My Aussie is Metallica

My Border is Snoop doggy dog

 

Actually, I wouldn't call the border shy, but cautious.

 

Snoop dog cautious?? I think he might take exception to that

 

Technically proficient at freestyle, yes....exacting on rhythm, yes. What about BCs as Beirut or Pinback? - Complex, varied, nuanced, and a pure joy to have around.

 

Glad you are realizing that Jax needs a bit of settling in time, and glad he's doing so well so far. Happy bonding!

[Eileen Stein]

Nice dog.

 

Maybe our experiences are just different and our philosophies are just incompatible, but (1) my conclusions about the nature of a dog I'd had for only a few days would be a lot more tentative than yours, and (2) I would not expect/want a dog I'd had for only a few days to be comfortable with a separation training exercise.

 

His name is Jax and he will not leave my side, wherever I go, he goes. Unless I'm within 10 feet of his food, he won't even eat. He's insecure and definitively unsure about almost everything. He's 1 years old and a rescue of unknown history. He's a really sweet, sensitive guy that's is just not sure of much of anything. Even when I was teaching basic commands I thought he was afraid to make a mistake, or the panic wouldn't let him focus on the command.

 

To me, this is a typical description of a rescue dog who has left everything he knows and come to a new person and a new home. Why wouldn't he be insecure and unsure? Why wouldn't he be a little fearful?

 

I generally like to start this desensitizing much earlier in a dogs life span. Jax is a year old, he's at least 6 months behind so it's time to go. Go meaning, push it to the edge of his failure point and then re-train from there forward.

 

This is probably the thing you wrote that troubles me the most. The dog is where he is. Where he should be by now if you'd been raising him from puppyhood is irrelevant, in my opinion, and not a reason for a crash desensitization operation. Maybe if you let him settle in for awhile before throwing so much at him, you'd find that his true nature is not so cautious, slow-moving, and unreactive as he now appears.

 

JMHO.

[Root Beer]

This is probably the thing you wrote that troubles me the most. The dog is where he is. Where he should be by now if you'd been raising him from puppyhood is irrelevant, in my opinion, and not a reason for a crash desensitization operation. Maybe if you let him settle in for awhile before throwing so much at him, you'd find that his true nature is not so cautious, slow-moving, and unreactive as he now appears.

 

I concur.

 

And there is really no such thing as "crash desensitization". By it's nature, desensitization takes as much time as is needed. It can't be hurried. When you move too fast, you lose some of the ground you've gained. This often happens at some point whether you mean to hurry or not, but trying to hurry will most likely end up causing more work for you in the long run.

 

I'm one who can't forget about the "would have been's" myself. I do occasionally imagine what my rescues "would have been" had I had the privilege of raising them from puppyhood. But aside from musing, that serves no purpose. They are who they are. And they are who they are, partially, because of where they have come from. I have now to work with who they are. Who they might have been is really nothing. It doesn't exist. So, I choose to be grateful for the opportunities that I have now and try to give my dogs time, especially when a fear needs to be alleviated.

 

I know that you have goals for your dog, but your dog also has a lot to teach you. Taking it slow and savoring the learning process will teach you as much as you want to teach your dog.

[desertranger]

slow down, take your time with anything you do with your dog. One of the reasons Jin didn't pass his CGC the first time was because he was to young, to puppyish and was easily distracted during the test. I'll admit that Jin has had what can best be said as a very intense upbringing til now. Time to slow down ans go back over the things he's picked up I don't like. Now I have to go back and train them out. It will take time, how much doesn't matter as long as I get it right in the end.