mbfoley Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I just wanted to say hi. I haven't been in here in a few years and I wasn't horribly active back then even so probably no one will remember me anyways lol. I have a black border collie/lab named Ebby, a mini schnauzer named Henry and had a chihuahua/dachsund named Pixie, though she passed away due to heart problems this past February. When I was here last I was living in MI and had asked a few questions trying to find an agility/flyball group up there. Since then lots has changed. Ebby and I had a long line snap failure which resulted in her being hit by a car and not sound for much besides hanging out. I moved back to Kentucky, got married to a wonderful guy who is also a dog lover and along with him came two great dogs, a beautiful Akita named Chloe and an awesome Azawakh named Bilal. One of the main reasons I thought of this board and came back in is Ebby. I'm having a hard time with her. She has always been spastic and neurotic and just off the wall weird and we have worked around it. I don't think she is any worse but I am having problems tolerating it. The last year or so I have become increasingly...annoyed...with her. It has become a daily struggle just to like her. Then we had an incident a few weeks ago. I had been really working hard on making sure her and I had some alone time together away from the other dogs, extra training and exercising time trying to get her tamed down some and giving her something else to do, trying to improve our relationship. One of the main things was taking her to the barn with me every day to feed my horse. She and him had a blast, she would herd him around some, then he'd turn and chase her some. I kept a close eye on them, making sure it was all play and if either of them got overly worked up I would put her in a down stay for a few outside the paddock so both could relax. Well a few weeks ago we were up at the barn and they were playing as normal and out of nowhere she ran up and bit his leg. I mean whole leg in her mouth even though she has never even nipped at his heels before, just circled and talked to him to move him. It happened so fast and he didn't react at all, I never would have realized anything had happened except from across the paddock I saw the blood show up on his leg. I immediately put her in a down stay and checked him out, luckily it was not major, just about 6 toothmarks and a couple of scrapes. I sent her back to the house and took care of him. Since then I can hardly look at her without getting angry. Every little thing she does makes me so mad I just want to kick and hit her to make her get away from me even though I don't believe in hitting (nor kicking of course) her even if she had done something to warrant even a reprimand. Please note that I said I FEEL like getting violent, I don't actually do so, although I do find myself yelling at her or simply sternly telling her to "get away from me". I know that this is MY problem, not hers. She is almost 6 years old, I have had her since she was about 6 weeks old. She's always been weird and it's always been fine. Other than unexpectedly biting Marquis, she isn't doing anything she has never done. She is just being her and that was fine for the first 5 years of her life, why is it bothering me so much now? An even better question, what do I do about it? Between playing with Henry and Bilal and getting attention from Sean (my husband), she doesn't really act like she cares that I don't like her anymore. It bothers me though, terribly. I don't like feeling this way and she deserves better even if she doesn't have enough sense to know it. I just don't know what to do about it though. I thought maybe if I came in and hung out in here for a while maybe I will bring back the positive feelings towards her quirkiness and maybe give me a boost towards letting go of this...anger...I feel towards her. *sigh* I don't know. I just know we can't go on like this even though I don't know what to do exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Wow. This is going to sound bitchy, but oh well. You LET her "herd" your horse and then you get angry enough to have violent feelings toward her when she finally (probably out of frustration) bites his leg? This is YOUR fault, not your dog's! Nobody here is going to be able to answer the question of why you don't like your dog anymore. That's for you to figure out through some soul-searching. Honestly, it sounds like she'd be better off in a new home, but again, that's a decision only you can make. I feel sorry for her, she deserves better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseAmy Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 You let your dog chase horses for fun and entertainment and the YOU get mad and hate the dog because it got overexcited and bite the horse. So now all of the sudden we hate the dog. Your dog is doing exactly what you have allowed it to do. And that is all I'm going to say, except I hope this is one of those made up post to get things stirred up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbfoley Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Wow thanks for the advice guys. I guess I could have left the horse part out of the picture since, as I said, I was having trouble being frustrated with her before then. That was like the icing on the cake or something. They were playing, should I not let her play with the other dogs either in case she decides to take it too far one day? If she had ever so much as nipped at him that would have been the end. They had been playing for months, always under supervision so I would be able to interfere if I thought there was a problem. I don't understand why the bite has upset me as bad as it has, that's part of my problem. The normal reaction for me to have would have been "Well that wasn't such a good idea, no more play for you guys". She will not be going to a new home, I don't "get rid of" my family members, especially not because of a problem *I* am having. I don't hate my dog, I just need to get back to finding her sillyness silly, instead of annoying. I guess I was hoping I wasn't the only one who had gone through a period of less tolerance and that someone would have some helpful suggestions rather than just criticism for what I had done wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Wow thanks for the advice guys. I guess I could have left the horse part out of the picture since, as I said, I was having trouble being frustrated with her before then. That was like the icing on the cake or something. They were playing, should I not let her play with the other dogs either in case she decides to take it too far one day? If she had ever so much as nipped at him that would have been the end. They had been playing for months, always under supervision so I would be able to interfere if I thought there was a problem. I don't understand why the bite has upset me as bad as it has, that's part of my problem. The normal reaction for me to have would have been "Well that wasn't such a good idea, no more play for you guys". She will not be going to a new home, I don't "get rid of" my family members, especially not because of a problem *I* am having. I don't hate my dog, I just need to get back to finding her sillyness silly, instead of annoying. I guess I was hoping I wasn't the only one who had gone through a period of less tolerance and that someone would have some helpful suggestions rather than just criticism for what I had done wrong. Two thoughts - the dog has gone through the same periods of adjustment (marriage, move, death of the other dog, new people and dogs in a new family) that you have, only she didn't have a say in it or have any advance warning/understanding that it was happening. Her tolerance limits might well have changed so her temperment will as well. Maybe one one level, you're reacting to the changes in her that you haven't realized were there and that is at the root of your exasperation with her. Second, Border Collies never play at herding unless its with another Border Collie. If her tail is down and her head is out, she's working. The others were blunt but correct. It's never a good idea to let a Border Collie herd anything that doesn't need to be herded for a specific reason and under a handler's control. Sooner or later, somebody's going to get hurt - horse, kid, dog. I just heard that one of Robin and Brodie's littermates who went to a working farm was killed by a passing car because the farmer didn't think he needed to put her away when he was away from the place. Traffic on that road had seriously increased over the span of time since he last had a pup. She was only six months old, already working dairy cows, and got bored and decided to chase a car when she was left unsupervised. A sad end for a pretty little stronghearted dog who would have been a great worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 In the past, I have criticized members of this board for being "rude" to other posters. After reading your post, I have a greater empathy for their frustration. Poor dog... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Horses and border collies do not play together. The dog thought she was working the horse, and you let her, so in her mind it was OK. I know others have already said this, but you let the dog harass the horse, then got really mad when the dog went too far (to the point of saying that you would like to kick and hit the dog). WTF were you expecting would happen? As for not liking the dog--you don't have to like her; most of us have met at least one dog we would rather not live with. Same as we meet people all the time we would not want to live with. But if you don't like the dog, then find somewhere else for her to live. It's not fair to her to live with someone who admittedly doesn't like her. Do you think she doesn't know that you don't like her? Would you want to live with someone who admits to not liking you? Just why is she still with you if you dislike her so much? A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbfoley Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Two thoughts - Thanks ejano. I have held zero tolerance with her attempts to herd the chickens and zero tolerance for staring at the rabbit cages. I will take it as a lesson learned not to let her herd ANYTHING. Of course, all animals are already covered so that's only helpful for future reference with any other species that might invade our home lol. You may be right on the changes in our household in the last few years creating changes that I am not consciously aware of but perhaps subconsciously I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 You probably don't want to hear this, but I think you should get busy finding a more appropriate home for Ebby. Before you get all defensive and stop reading, just take a deep breath and then read and think about what I have to say. I am not a person who works with dogs and livestock, but I would never allow a dog that was not trained or in training to have anything to do with a horse, cow, goat, sheep, duck or chicken except stay out of their way. Chasing livestock for any reason, including willing play on the part of the livestock, seems like asking for trouble. I submit that your anger toward Ebby is redirected anger at yourself for putting her and your horse at risk. Even in a "we're all friends here" situation Marquis could have easily rearranged all of Ebby's teeth or killed her with a playful kick. And Marquis could have suffered serious leg injuries. What if Ebby decides it would be fun to play with a horse she doesn't know? How about if that horse was carrying a rider? You say you don't get rid of family members. But we do it all the time. Old and ill people sometimes are better off in a different setting than with their families. I think you need to consider what's best for Ebby. In my opinion that would be a home where there was NO livestock for her to get in trouble with. Teaching her to leave horses strictly alone could be difficult. Placing her in a loving home would be the act of a responsible, caring owner. What is the point of keeping a dog that you can't interact with in a satisfying way? You say Ebby doesn't seem to care that you reject her and are feeling angry toward her. All the more reason to place her with someone who can bond with her and give her a happy life with someone who loves her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbfoley Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Horses and border collies do not play together. The dog thought she was working the horse, and you let her, so in her mind it was OK. I know others have already said this, but you let the dog harass the horse, then got really mad when the dog went too far (to the point of saying that you would like to kick and hit the dog). WTF were you expecting would happen? Obviously I misread what was going on. It appeared to me they were enjoying themselves. I watched so that I could interfere if there was a problem, if one went overboard or got too worked up. I didn't expect to be upset with either of them if it didn't work out, I believe I have already stated that my reaction to the bite is exactly part of the reason I am upset. As for not liking the dog--you don't have to like her; most of us have met at least one dog we would rather not live with. Same as we meet people all the time we would not want to live with. But if you don't like the dog, then find somewhere else for her to live. It's not fair to her to live with someone who admittedly doesn't like her. Do you think she doesn't know that you don't like her? Would you want to live with someone who admits to not liking you? Just why is she still with you if you dislike her so much? A Because I don't believe in getting rid of a family member just because I am having a problem that I should be able to resolve. This isn't her fault that I'm feeling this way and my first reaction isn't to dump her so that I don't have to deal with my problem. I loved her for 5 years, I would rather fix my problem than dump her. I did SAY that I don't like her but it's more I am just so frustrated and don't know why I am or what to do about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Look at this from the DOG'S point of view: finding her a new home where they like her would be so much preferable to living in a home where she is not liked. It's not dumping her so you don't have to deal with the problem--it's finding her a place where she can be happier. Re-homing a dog is NOT always "dumping." Sometimes it's the best thing we can do for the dog in question, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbfoley Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 You probably don't want to hear this, but I think you should get busy finding a more appropriate home for Ebby... She does not have access to Marquis unless we let her and she no longer goes to the barn with me. Lesson learned, I don't need a second warning on that. If sending her away was the best thing for her then I might consider it down the road but I would rather fix MY problem rather than dump her so I don't have to. I loved her for 5 years (and still do, being frustrated with her does not negate that), I do not believe that this is unfixable, I just have to figure out how. Why is it than when someone tries to rehome a dog, all the responsible dog owners hoot and holler that the owner is giving up on the dog and they should work through the problem, try this, try that, etc but when someone says "I have a problem, any ideas?" a dozen people come forward with "Get rid of the dog"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedismom Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 As far as your anger towards your dog, you'll have to figure out where that's coming from, but I'll just share a little bit about what my experience has been at times. Jedi is quirky (I love that about him), weird, and at times annoying. Sometimes, behaviors that I thought we'd worked through come back and it's very frustrating. Sometimes I would wish certain characteristics of his personality were different, and find myself going down the slippery slope of comparing him with other dogs. Our relationship got better when I stopped putting pressure on myself and him to be a certain way. Like him ..super border collie..and me brilliant trainer... I relaxed and just started having fun with him. When behaviors come back I just think ...ok this is the Jedi of today.. I need to work with the Jedi of today and not obsess about the fact that he didn't do that last year. It would be normal for your dog to avoid you if he feels animosity coming at him from you. Not sure why you seem to be surprised by that. "Bonding With Your Dog" by Victoria Schade is a good book if you're willing to work on the relationship. I believe you want to, or you wouldn't have come back to the board with this. Georgia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 OK, yeah, echoing the other posters' comments, glad you aren't going to let her "play" with the horse anymore!!!!!!! Eeek. Next, you knnow this probably but Ebby probably needs something useful to do to be happy. Even at six years of age, she'll still want to be learning new things, jobs, chores that require independent thought. Border collies like learning things and thinking. But as the previous owner of a black lab / border collie mix whom I deeply loved because she was totally brilliant and strange but in the end had to put down because she was very disturbed behaviorally (dangerously so, she had fear aggression/redirected aggression/sound reactivity/territorial aggression/and resource guarding from humans--every day with her was a rollercoaster ride of excitement then misery because she could go from brilliantly learning a new trick to going into a raging maniacal frothing fit and biting people, including me and my husband and in one scary instance before I understood the extent of her fear aggression, a stranger), I understand the feeling of loving, but not liking, your dog. And feel that perhaps you could explain further the so called quirks that bugged you, I mean what was she doing before she bit the horse -- which everyone here agrees was NOT her fault in the least, I mean from the reactions here I'm guessing we should say both Ebby and Marquis are saints for nothing worse happening than this before now -- so what was she doing before that to annoy you that made you stop liking her? I can see how with all the life changes you've had and she's had how behaviors that used to be tolerable now aren't. So that's a question that might be worth asking here. What are the root behaviors that are finally wearing on your nerves? Then maybe people can give advice on how to better manage or modify those behaviors, so that Ebby and you can be happier together. It does sound like you still love her. Besides depending on what her "quirks" are she might not be rehomable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbfoley Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Dogs and dogs play together. Horses and dogs do not play together. It was not "play" that you were witnessing. It was sheer luck that your dog and horse were not injured earlier. Seriously...I can't believe I just had to say that to someone. Well imagine how stupid *I* feel for obviously needing to hear it. I got it, lesson already learned, she has not had the opportunity to so much as see a horse since that incident. Nor have any of the other dogs, nor will any of them. As far as your anger towards your dog, you'll have to figure out where that's coming from, but I'll just share a little bit about what my experience has been at times. Jedi is quirky (I love that about him), weird, and at times annoying. Sometimes, behaviors that I thought we'd worked through come back and it's very frustrating. Sometimes I would wish certain characteristics of his personality were different, and find myself going down the slippery slope of comparing him with other dogs. Our relationship got better when I stopped putting pressure on myself and him to be a certain way. Like him ..super border collie..and me brilliant trainer... I relaxed and just started having fun with him. When behaviors come back I just think ...ok this is the Jedi of today.. I need to work with the Jedi of today and not obsess about the fact that he didn't do that last year. You know, you may be on to something there. If I remember correctly, I think I probably did start feeling more frustrated with her about the same time I decided that I should work more with her, to "turn her into" a more normal dog. Maybe that's been the problem all along. I thought I could turn her into a different dog (not sure why I felt the need to, I liked her fine before I started feeling frustrated with her) and then got frustrated when she just kept being her instead of morphing into some other dog. It would be normal for your dog to avoid you if he feels animosity coming at him from you. Not sure why you seem to be surprised by that. But she doesn't avoid me, not even slightly. She doesn't seem to act any different than she ever did. If I said she did I am sorry, I meant exactly the opposite. She is the same, happy go lucky "psycho dog" (her nickname) that she has always been. What's different is ME. "Bonding With Your Dog" by Victoria Schade is a good book if you're willing to work on the relationship. I believe you want to, or you wouldn't have come back to the board with this. Georgia THANK YOU! I shall see if the library has it, if not I'll order it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 But if you don't like the dog, then find somewhere else for her to live. It's not fair to her to live with someone who admittedly doesn't like her. Do you think she doesn't know that you don't like her? Would you want to live with someone who admits to not liking you? Just why is she still with you if you dislike her so much? A THIS is why I suggested re-homing the dog. Trust me, she KNOWS you don't like her, Michelle. I just don't know if that's something you can change from the sounds of things, and it's simply not fair to Ebby. I'm having a hard time with her. She has always been spastic and neurotic and just off the wall weird and we have worked around it. I don't think she is any worse but I am having problems tolerating it. The last year or so I have become increasingly...annoyed...with her. It has become a daily struggle just to like her. Since then I can hardly look at her without getting angry. Every little thing she does makes me so mad I just want to kick and hit her to make her get away from me even though I don't believe in hitting (nor kicking of course) her even if she had done something to warrant even a reprimand. Please note that I said I FEEL like getting violent, I don't actually do so, although I do find myself yelling at her or simply sternly telling her to "get away from me". I know that this is MY problem, not hers. She is almost 6 years old, I have had her since she was about 6 weeks old. She's always been weird and it's always been fine.<snip>She is just being her and that was fine for the first 5 years of her life, why is it bothering me so much now? <snip>I don't like feeling this way and she deserves better even if she doesn't have enough sense to know it. <snip>letting go of this...anger...I feel towards her. *sigh* I don't know. I just know we can't go on like this.... I'm sorry, but how can you blame us for suggesting a more loving home would be suitable for Ebby? If you read the above, what would you think? I'm not a therapist, but it seems like maybe (I don't know the timeline) since you met and moved in with your husband and his "beautiful and awesome" dogs, that suddenly the dog you've had since she was 6 weeks old just doesn't measure up? IF you decide to keep her, you need to find a way to love her for who she is, quirks, weirdness and all. It was good enough for 5 years, it should be good enough now. Don't compare her to the other dogs or some expectation you might have of her that she's not living up to. And if you can't do it, the kindest thing would be to find a home where she is loved and appreciated, not just tolerated because you don't get rid of problems. ETA: Oh, I see that Jedismom posted some of what I was trying to say. Sorry for any repeating...I"m a slow typer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I won't go into the deal with the horse, others have spoke on that, and I believe you also realize she should not be allowed to do that anymore. One thing that strikes me in your post, is how you describe your new hubby's dogs. I get the feeling his dogs are not "weird" or quirky and perhaps your DH has made remarks or you just put your "quirky" dog up against his "wonderful and awesome" dogs. I have a foster dog that is actually mine as she can never be adopted out. She's as weird as the day is long. She either acts like a zombie or she is overly excited and nipping at my other dogs. My muttly Cheyenne was PTS a few weeks back, and in the days before and right after, I admit, I would look at Holly and say, why her and not you? It made me feel ashamed and guilty, but there it is. I was sitting at my table a few days after Cheyenne was gone, feeling sorry for myself and crying like a baby. Holly came over and very quietly laid her head on my lap. I looked down at her, thinking of just shooing her away, when I looked in her eyes. Eyes that said I'm sorry I'm not her, but will I do in a pinch? I bawled more and just loved her. And I thought about the words that Granny used to say, even a broke clock is right twict a day. She may not be all that you hoped or all that other dogs are, but she is what she is and I think if you just take a few deep breaths and tell yourself the things that are right about her, it will help. Instead of comparing her to other dogs, just let her be who she is. I think if you stop comparing her to other dogs, you will once again be able to enjoy her for just being her. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I was sitting at my table a few days after Cheyenne was gone, feeling sorry for myself and crying like a baby. Holly came over and very quietly laid her head on my lap. I looked down at her, thinking of just shooing her away, when I looked in her eyes. Eyes that said I'm sorry I'm not her, but will I do in a pinch? I bawled more and just loved her. And I thought about the words that Granny used to say, even a broke clock is right twict a day. Great analogy. Wonderful story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Awesome post, Linda. I want to hug you now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I think I probably did start feeling more frustrated with her about the same time I decided that I should work more with her, to "turn her into" a more normal dog. Maybe that's been the problem all along. I thought I could turn her into a different dog (not sure why I felt the need to, I liked her fine before I started feeling frustrated with her) and then got frustrated when she just kept being her instead of morphing into some other dog. This I can definitely "get." When I first started teaching eighth graders, I had some picture of what kids should know and be like at that age - and I was constantly frustrated because the kids in front of me did not know the stuff I thought they should and did not act like I thought they ought to. After a couple frustrating years where the kids drove me crazy, I realized, "Hey, this is what they're LIKE. Suck it up and learn to deal with the kids in front of you." And that was the end of my extreme frustration. Now, if kids aren't learning something the way I'm teaching it, I assume it's my teaching that's at fault, not the kids, and I start again. Sounds entirely possible that your anger and frustration are misdirected at Ebby, when they're really directed at yourself, for not being able to get this to happen. Totally understandable! Been there! I experienced the same thing, to a much lesser extent (due to my increased age and wisdom!) when I got my dog. For a couple weeks I tried to "correct" him into being the dog I thought he should, and it just scared him and frustrated me. So, I gave up that system and started to learn about who he was. You present a very tricky problem about not liking a dog. I think some parents find themselves in the same situation - not really in touch with one of their children the same way they are with the others. We NEVER tell those parents that they should give the odd child up for adoption; we ask them to work on the relationship until it improves - to learn to accept the child for who he is, and find new ways of interaction. I think this sometimes works, but I think sometimes the kid grows up knowing that Dad or Mom doesn't like him as much as the other kids. Not sure that's as horrible as knowing Dad or Mom gave you away... but obviously it's not ideal. I've always fallen in love with my dogs, which is a good thing, I guess! I honestly don't know what I'd do if I got one and found that I didn't love it. My sister has a little hound mix, and she says has a really hard time liking that dog. Fortunately, she's got two kids, a husband, and another dog that Spirit can get attention from. Here's another story I have to tell myself sometimes: My dog went after his good friend, a Boston Terrier, in a chicken-related scuffle once. I was horrified, aghast! But after I got over it, I realized that Buddy wasn't different, suddenly. He hadn't been a "good" dog who suddenly went "bad." He had always been food protective, and I just hadn't seen the warning signs that he might get this snarky over something as good as chicken. After the scuflfle, I didn't have some monster dog. I had the same dog, but I knew him better: well enough to know not to let him be among a crowd of dog when good food is around. Ebby isn't a different or worse dog now than she was before she bit the horse. She's just shown you something that was always there, but invisible to you. You've learned a little bit more about who she is. Good luck. I do understand people's empathy toward your dog. It hurts my heart to think about a dog going unloved, unappreciated. But I think you're posting with some deliberate effort to remedy the situation and provide a loving home for Ebby. I think dogs are hugely creatures of habit. I think they treasure the sameness and the routine of their lives with their families almost as much as they treasure the families themselves. I can imagine Ebby being content and happy in her life among her human and animal family members, even if there's a bit of tension in a single relationship. Maybe she'd be more content in a new home where she is best beloved, but maybe not, too. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Hi, As someone with a 15 year old dog that I didn't like very much for the first years of her life, I don't know that you necessarily need to re-home her. Realistically, she may be difficult to rehome and obviously you do care about her or you wouldn't be posting here. The obvious has been pointed out regarding the horse. If there is something she does you don't like, remove her ability to do it. I don't think it's hard to teach a dog to leave a horse alone- put a long rope on her and if she can't listen, just go put her up while you are at the barn. Start with short sessions at the barn and don't have alot of expectations except staying away from the horse. My dog Leary was a horrible first border collie for me working wise- she was fast, pressure sensitive and a bit of chicken. She is a dog that works and acts solely for her own best interest and does not give much thought to what you want or expect. Corrections did not made much of a difference, she only learned if she was really motivated by something she wanted (i.e food or tennis ball). She really wanted sheep too but it was impossible, with my beginner's timing, to make it work with no help. I am ashamed to say I was not always fair to her and I was too hard on her, due to ignorance, many times. If I could go back, I would have sold her when she was a year or two old because I think she might have made a good working dog for someone and from the beginning we had issues. By the time she was two, I had to accept that we would never get along. So I dropped all of my expectations and made her a pet in the strictest sense of the word. All that was required of her was to live in my house, not destroy anything or bark and that's about it. I didn't treat her the same as my other dogs and I only pet her if she solicited it (which she rarely did). Over the years, I came to like her a little more and I will be sad when she passes away. She's had an excellent, no stress life and I can't imagine she would have had a better one if I rehomed her (unless I did right at the beginning). Not all dogs will care if you like them or not, as long as they are part of your family and you don't mistreat them. If she did care, she'd probably not be driving you as crazy as she is. Drop the expectations to the most basic, try to see the good things in her. Keep an eye out for a home that would love her but don't beat yourself up if you don't find it. At least you recognize the truth about your relationship with her and in my own case, that was the first step in re-building different expectations of my Leary so we could both enjoy each other again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbfoley Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 OK, yeah, echoing the other posters' comments, one, DON'T LET HER "PLAY" WITH A HORSE. From what I understand from reading this board, that ain't play -- for either of them. You are very lucky the horse hasn't killed her yet. Two, Ebby probably needs something useful to do. Learning new things, jobs, chores that require independent thought. Border collies like learning things and thinking. And three, as the previous owner of a black lab / border collie mix whom I deeply loved because she was totally brilliant and strange but in the end had to put down because she was crazy (dangerously so, biting people, including me and my husband and in one scary instance before I understood the extent of her fear aggression, a stranger), I feel compelled to ask the somewhat important question before I suggest rehoming: what exactly are Ebby's "quirks"? If they are serious quirks, then possibly she can't rehome her. And if she can't, then what we have to ask is what was she doing before she bit the horse -- which everyone here agrees was NOT her fault in the least, I mean from the reactions here I'm guessing we should say both Ebby and Marquis are saints for nothing worse happening than this before now -- to annoy you that made you stop liking her? Sorry to be the odd woman out here, but my experience has been there are serious things a dog can do that can make you dislike them, but not stop loving them. So that's a question that might be worth asking here. And finding out what the root behavior is that is finally wearing on the OP's nerves might allow y'all to give her advice on how to make Ebby stop it / be happier in her current setting (where she should never be allowed to "play" with horses again), don't you think? Yep, I got it, I was stupid enough to let them "play" together but not quite stupid enough to let it continue after there was an injury. They have not so much as seen each other since then since she can't get to the barn without me letting her. Ebby's quirks aren't dangerous or serious or even enough to seriously warrant me being upset with her. She's scary smart but teaching her is difficult because if she even THINKS she's being reprimanded during training she shuts down and quits trying. Teaching her can also be difficult because it's hard to keep her calm and off of me. If I talk to her or even look at her, she thinks she needs to be plastered to me, lifting her leg for a belly rub, flinging herself onto her back, whining and wriggling the whole time. The only way to get her away is to tell her "back off", then she totally leaves, only to come barreling back for act 2 of the same play if she thinks I really did want to pay her some attention. *IF* I can get her to stop and sit before getting to me, things go much smoother. She has an awesome recall. Her sit and down are 100% except it's hard to get her to do them WHEN I say rather than flattening herself to me first. She has a solid stay. Fetching is good, if she can figure out WHAT I want her to get she is hugely enthusiastic about bringing it to me, targeting the right item can be frustrating, going back to the problem of her shutting down if she gets things wrong. Even a slight "uh uh" or "nope" or "drop it" makes her give up the game for a few minutes, a couple of repetitions makes her leave if I even ask her to get me something. She screams like someone shot her ANYTIME the front door opens if she is crated. No matter why the door is opening. I know what caused it, just not how to stop it and I have given up trying. She is my husband's "yawn alert dog". He can yawn and no matter where in the house she is or what she is doing, even snoring, but let him yawn and she is screaming and jumping on him in seconds, making sure he's ok I guess lol. Cuddling on the couch with her is IMPOSSIBLE. She starts out nice, lying up against me, then she starts wiggling, then whining, then she's on her back, pushing anything she can reach with her front paws. If I pet her she wiggles harder, if I just hold my hand on her she flails trying to get me to move, if I ignore her completely she is on the couch, off the couch, on the couch, off the couch. If I make her stay off the couch she paces from one room to the next or sits staring at me whining. Toys, kongs, filled kongs, all are ignored. The only way to interrupt all of the above is a down stay or crate her. If I am on the computer and call either Bilal or Henry (Chloe is dog aggressive and is never in the house at the same time the other dogs are loose in the house), Ebby comes flailing up onto me, screeching the whole time. I can only pet the boys if they come to me or if they are close enough that I can get their attention without getting hers too. See it's nothing, just an overly enthusiastic dog. I always said she was just waiting to grow her brain and maybe I got upset that at almost 6 years old she still hasn't grown it, maybe she's not going to lol. *sigh* in some ways talking about this is helping, in other ways it's making me feel worse because it's so clearly NOT her fault, there is no way I can lay any of the blame on her. She's just her and until recently that's been ok. Maybe it's like jedismom said and made me realize that it's possible my frustrations are coming from my inability to "fix" her quirks rather than from the quirks themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbfoley Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I'm not a therapist, but it seems like maybe (I don't know the timeline) since you met and moved in with your husband and his "beautiful and awesome" dogs, that suddenly the dog you've had since she was 6 weeks old just doesn't measure up? IF you decide to keep her, you need to find a way to love her for who she is, quirks, weirdness and all. It was good enough for 5 years, it should be good enough now. Don't compare her to the other dogs or some expectation you might have of her that she's not living up to. And if you can't do it, the kindest thing would be to find a home where she is loved and appreciated, not just tolerated because you don't get rid of problems. No that's not it, trust me, they have quirks of their own, we have a house full of personality going here. Besides which the timeline doesn't fit, we have lived together for 3 years, it's been months that I have been dealing with frustrations. I think it's possible that for some reason I decided to try and train out some of her quirks and got frustrated when it didn't work. Now to just get back to the "before" when the quirks didn't bother me, they were all part of my "psycho dog" as opposed to problems. Besides which, Henry, my mini schnauzer, is the love of my life, my once in a lifetime dog. If I was going to hold her up to a dog and say "Nope, she's gotta go, she's not as good as this dog" it would have been him long ago (he's 11 and been with me since he was 11 weeks old). OMG now thinking on it I have been worried about losing him as he is starting to show his age (not that he's old, but he is poorly bred and is showing age related problems already), I wonder if subconsciously I was trying to change her to be more like him because I'm worried I'm going to lose him? Since he's been showing his age and my mom's dog (that she got as a rescue just months after we got Henry) is on his last legs, I have been more nad more aware that someday I am going to lose him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbfoley Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 One thing that strikes me in your post, is how you describe your new hubby's dogs. I get the feeling his dogs are not "weird" or quirky and perhaps your DH has made remarks or you just put your "quirky" dog up against his "wonderful and awesome" dogs. No, his dogs are far from perfect. Wonderful and awesome, yes, just like my dogs, quirks and all. I have a foster dog that is actually mine as she can never be adopted out. She's as weird as the day is long. She either acts like a zombie or she is overly excited and nipping at my other dogs. My muttly Cheyenne was PTS a few weeks back, and in the days before and right after, I admit, I would look at Holly and say, why her and not you? It made me feel ashamed and guilty, but there it is. I understand. Even long before these frustrated feelings I have had, when Ebby was hit by the car, I remember going through immense guilt trips for being so grateful that it was her and not Henry that was hit. I was sitting at my table a few days after Cheyenne was gone, feeling sorry for myself and crying like a baby. Holly came over and very quietly laid her head on my lap. I looked down at her, thinking of just shooing her away, when I looked in her eyes. Eyes that said I'm sorry I'm not her, but will I do in a pinch? I bawled more and just loved her. And I thought about the words that Granny used to say, even a broke clock is right twict a day. She may not be all that you hoped or all that other dogs are, but she is what she is and I think if you just take a few deep breaths and tell yourself the things that are right about her, it will help. Instead of comparing her to other dogs, just let her be who she is. I think if you stop comparing her to other dogs, you will once again be able to enjoy her for just being her. Good luck. I think while replying to the last note I had an epiphany. I have recently become aware of Henry's impending mortality and I think I was subconsciously trying to turn her into him so it wouldn't hurt so bad when his time comes and have been getting frustrated that it wasn't working (duh). I think I need to have a heart to heart with Ebby when I get home from work tonight and see what her and I can work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 My muttly Cheyenne was PTS a few weeks back, and in the days before and right after, I admit, I would look at Holly and say, why her and not you? It made me feel ashamed and guilty, but there it is. I was sitting at my table a few days after Cheyenne was gone, feeling sorry for myself and crying like a baby. Holly came over and very quietly laid her head on my lap. I looked down at her, thinking of just shooing her away, when I looked in her eyes. Eyes that said I'm sorry I'm not her, but will I do in a pinch? I had a similar experience with Robin -- I was still recovering from the surgery, in the middle of chemo, and missing Scotty's dependable, steady presence. One afternoon I was dozing on the porch while the puppies played, and dreaming of Scotty. I woke up crying and there was Robin looking at me with those funny colored eyes and his head cocked as if to say, "but I'm here - what's wrong with me?" A little later, he somehow "herded" a butterfly down to me on the porch (purely an accident, the logical side of me says) and that was the day I finally opened up my heart to him. Dogs understand a great deal more than we give them credit for. They might not have exactly "human" emotions but they understand, displeasure, dislike, rejection, and love. Most of the time they look past the first four because there's always that slim chance that their owner/caretaker will eventually love them for what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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