cmtst2 Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I've had my rescue BC for 2 years now and can't imagine I was almost scared into returning him to the pound. He had distemper which he was treated for and survived. So he's a little over 2 years old now and I conquered the dominant issues...I am alpha. He is the most entertaining dog I've owned. After living with the dog for the first 2 years, my daughter moved out of the house. She comes home every weekend to visit and Loki is both happy to see her, wagging his tail, flying into her lap and then...flattens his ears and growls and bears his teeth at her. He doesn't do it to other "friends" he hasn't seen, as a matter of fact my daughters old boyfriend came over after a year and they picked up right where they left off. Anyway, now he's doing the same thing to my son who still lives in the house every time he leaves to go to work. Is this still separation anxiety or a remnant of the distemper? I'm in a situation where I cannot afford a battery of diagnostic tests but can try to do a behavior modification. I've already tried the shaking bolts in a tin can scare tactic and it hasn't helped. Over all he is wonderful, especially with me, he is sensitive, wants to please, and smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pammyd Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Without knowing lots of other things and prob seeing the dog I dont really know what is going on there - it could be excitment, guarding you, anything But I can say for sure it is not seperation anxiety Whatever it is I wouldnt try scare tactics - if he is already jumpy the last thing you want is for him thinking your daughters apperance means there are going to be scary noises Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Separation anxiety in my dog is his inablility to cope when he is apart from us. This appeared several years after being trustworthy while uncrated in the house but when we were on vacation for a week, in spite of being cared for by a dog-sitter during the day and with DH at night, he was destructive and tore up several things in the home. He has broken multiple teeth doing this. We have been working with a veterinary behaviorist since then and he has made some small strides, but medication has helped him the most. I do still crate him for his safety. PLEASE do not shake the can of bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 ... flattens his ears and growls and bears his teeth at her. So, is he doing it when she leaves or while she's getting ready to go or while he's sitting with her in the chair? Where does he do it with your son? Is it in the same place (like by the door or something) every time? It doesn't sound like any type of SA I've every heard of...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclare Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 ...flattens his ears and growls and bears his teeth at her. Is he definitely growling at her? Because if he's being really loving and friendly ahead of time, it could be a submissive grin. I've had fosters that are so happy to see me when I come home that their whole body wiggles and they pull their lips back to show me their teeth. If you're not used to it it sometimes seems like an aggressive expression, but in fact is the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 It may not mean anything, but I note that the dog only does this with your adult children. My guess is that you are somehow inadvertently cueing a protective behavior. Since they are your children you probably have a different and deeper emotional response to them. If there is an underlying ambivalence or conflict in your mind that is triggered by the arriving and/or leaving of your children the dog may be sensing it. He may respond to this as a threat somehow. I've seen it clearly displayed in horses from time to time - person approaches horse with the best of intentions and at the same time is processing anger/ hurt over the a recent tiff with the spouse, and the horse shies and won't let them approach. Person realizes that they are suppressing angry feelings and owns those feelings and then the horse relaxes and allows them to approach. It's the same thing with the dog who runs away from you when you start to think about giving them a bath. You smile, you wave treats, but at the back of your mind you are anticipating the dog's being unhappy about the bath. Your dualistic state of mind is transmitted to the dog. He thinks, "UH-OH, she's saying one thing and thinking something else. Better stay clear 'till I know what the deal is. To test this theory, try making sure you are not at home when the son goes to work, or the daughter comes for the weekend. If the growling and baring of teeth doesn't happen then you are probably cueing the dog inadvertently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmtst2 Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 So, is he doing it when she leaves or while she's getting ready to go or while he's sitting with her in the chair? Where does he do it with your son? Is it in the same place (like by the door or something) every time? It doesn't sound like any type of SA I've every heard of...... Yes, definitely growling, it was worse with my son than with her and always when he senses they are getting ready to leave the house. With her it's when she first gets there and he is in her lap, then again when she is getting ready to go, that is why I thought it was separation anxiety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmtst2 Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Separation anxiety in my dog is his inablility to cope when he is apart from us. This appeared several years after being trustworthy while uncrated in the house but when we were on vacation for a week, in spite of being cared for by a dog-sitter during the day and with DH at night, he was destructive and tore up several things in the home. He has broken multiple teeth doing this. We have been working with a veterinary behaviorist since then and he has made some small strides, but medication has helped him the most. I do still crate him for his safety. PLEASE do not shake the can of bolts. I already stated that the can didn't work but if he bites either of them he goes down. As I don't want that, I am trying all of the "no growl, no bite" tactics. He is not destroying anything in the house he is threatening the kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmtst2 Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 It may not mean anything, but I note that the dog only does this with your adult children. My guess is that you are somehow inadvertently cueing a protective behavior. Since they are your children you probably have a different and deeper emotional response to them. If there is an underlying ambivalence or conflict in your mind that is triggered by the arriving and/or leaving of your children the dog may be sensing it. He may respond to this as a threat somehow. I've seen it clearly displayed in horses from time to time - person approaches horse with the best of intentions and at the same time is processing anger/ hurt over the a recent tiff with the spouse, and the horse shies and won't let them approach. Person realizes that they are suppressing angry feelings and owns those feelings and then the horse relaxes and allows them to approach. It's the same thing with the dog who runs away from you when you start to think about giving them a bath. You smile, you wave treats, but at the back of your mind you are anticipating the dog's being unhappy about the bath. Your dualistic state of mind is transmitted to the dog. He thinks, "UH-OH, she's saying one thing and thinking something else. Better stay clear 'till I know what the deal is. To test this theory, try making sure you are not at home when the son goes to work, or the daughter comes for the weekend. If the growling and baring of teeth doesn't happen then you are probably cueing the dog inadvertently. Wow...yes I had a very emotional time with my daughter leaving and the dog was very clued in to my emotional state and was trying very hard to keep me amused. I actually have wondered and said that he might be reacting to her new smells as they are not familiar like our household smells..but that doesn't explain my son who still lives here so dismissed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmtst2 Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Is he definitely growling at her? Because if he's being really loving and friendly ahead of time, it could be a submissive grin. I've had fosters that are so happy to see me when I come home that their whole body wiggles and they pull their lips back to show me their teeth. If you're not used to it it sometimes seems like an aggressive expression, but in fact is the opposite. Yes, growling, hair on the back up, bared teeth and flattened ears but all the while with a wagging tail, him in her lap etc. She puts his ever present ball in his mouth to keep him from biting her then after about 5 minutes it's over....till she leaves. She doesn't say goodbye to him to keep the anxiety down but he races to the door and growls again when she picks up her purse. As the other poster suggested, I'm sure I'm sad to see her go and may be the trigger when she leaves but not when she is arriving which is happy so I'm very confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I think you really need to get a behaviorist/ trainer in to help with this. This behavior may be why he was in the pound before. I also noted that your daughter "feeds" him a tennis ball when he growls at her. Seems like that would be a potent reinforcer for this dog's behavior - he growls, she gives him a ball. He's wagging, and (so far) not biting, so I'm inclined to thing he's doing what he thinks he's supposed to do. Things need to be made clearer to him in a positive, less confusing way. You also mentioned in one of your other posts that he is let our of the crate when he fusses loudly. More reinforcement for unwanted behavior. For the situation with the growling I think you need a trainer. You've already invested a few thousand in this dog. You can get a professional to help you sort this out, or you can risk your investment, your relationship with the dog, and a possible injury to one of your children. Sometimes some of the better shelters have low-cost behaviorists on staff. I would check in with the place where you adopted him and see if they can help. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I already stated that the can didn't work but if he bites either of them he goes down. As I don't want that, I am trying all of the "no growl, no bite" tactics. He is not destroying anything in the house he is threatening the kids. Wow. He bites your kids? You do not have separation anxiety. Please consult a veterianary behaviorist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I agree with the others about a veterinary behaviorist. For now, work on training your boy to go to his crate or a mat and stay there. Make the crate/mat a great place for him to be. Send him there whenever anyone comes in or is getting ready to leave the house, not just your kids. If he's not right next to anyone, he can't bite them or growl at them. Release him when things are settled. Send him to his crate/mat a few times a day, just to reinforce that it's a good, safe place for him to be. Ask your son/daughter not to approach him until you release him. I'd say there's some anxiety going on here, not separation but related to the comings and goings. You may never know what specifically he's worried about, but you can manage the situation right now with putting him in a safe place. Please consider the vet behaviorist. It's not like a training class, where you go repeatedly. My experiences are that you fill out an exhaustive report, see the vet 1 or 2x, get specific protocols to follow, and then do follow up with the vet over the phone. Good luck, Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Please consider the vet behaviorist. It's not like a training class, where you go repeatedly. My experiences are that you fill out an exhaustive report, see the vet 1 or 2x, get specific protocols to follow, and then do follow up with the vet over the phone. Exactly my experience, Ruth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I am going to echo what the others have said, a vet. behaviourist would be your best solution. A vet. behaviourist is also going to be able to prescribe medications if that is needed while your working through the issues. This is a really hard one because no one can see what he's actually doing. I mean, I've had a dog come up to me growling, showing teeth and wagging his tail, but by the position of his tail and the speed at which is was wagging, I was able to tell he was smiling and excited. (the tail was mid height and wagging fairly quickly and loose, from one side of his body to the other) My dog will do the exact same thing with different positioning and speed of tail wag to things she does not know or is afraid of and it's clearly a fear problem. (her tail his high up, stiff and wagging very slowly and not a full side- to-side wag). So really, it could be from one end of the spectrum to the other, I'd get a professional, experienced, positive behaviourist to help you figure it out! Please keep us posted though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I say Vet Behaviorist as well. Just want to mention to keep to positive methods of training as the dog is agitated. Any scare tactics (Can of bolts) or "dominance" moves on a humans' part could send him over the edge into a bite, which would be a shame since you have made so much progress with him. He needs help to calm not to be put in his place by an "alpha". JMHO. Best of luck. Keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I don't know what just happened...i tried to edit my original post and it came up as a new one... Anyway, Flyer's post made me think of a few books that might help you out... Click to Calm, Control Unleashed (for going to a mat or a place when your kids are coming and going) and any Patricia McConnell books! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I'd say there's some anxiety going on here, not separation but related to the comings and goings. You may never know what specifically he's worried about, but you can manage the situation right now with putting him in a safe place. Ruth This sounds similar to what we've been experiencing with Scooter. Whenever he senses someone is about to leave, he gets very anxious and begins circling, first around the room, then closer, around the person. Sometimes as they are walking out the door he barks and lunges at their heels. He's never bitten anyone, but it scares the bejesus out of 'em. The joke used to be that someone might be able to break in, but Scooter would never let them leave! After lots of work, we've finally stopped the behavior. Now when he sees someone get up to leave, he takes himself upstairs and waits till they're gone. We've never made a big deal out of coming or going, but this seems to be more with guests than us. In the beginning we would just quietly remove him to the laundry room till company left. Then we started working with him going to "his place" and staying. Then one night he just went upstairs and sat quietly, all by himself. That's "his place" now. Someone once observed that it might be some sort of herding behavior, trying to keep people from escaping. No matter what was triggering the behavior, it was unacceptable, and obviously upsetting to him. I don't like to let him get that stressed out. This was one of the hardest things we've had to teach him, but we kept at it and everyone's happier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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