bc4ever Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Scooter and the Labradoodle behind us are constantly going after each other, barking and running up and down the fence line as soon as they notice the other one is out. Invariably, it's muddy back there too and he comes in a real mess! I can stop him from barking at the other dogs in the adjoining yards, but these two just won't stop and the owners never intervene from their side of the fence. There are times I just can't take him out on a leash to do his business (which doesn't always stop the encounters anyway) and I feel he should be able to be in his yard without me for a few minutes. I've started looking before I let him out, hoping to avoid the confrontation. That works sometimes. Recently though, I've noticed the woman actually lets her dog out as soon as Scooter is out. After today's episode, and after I dragged Scooter back to the laundry room while I cleaned up the mud in the kitchen, I saw her standing at her door watching! I gave her the "You're Number One" sign!!! Suggestions? This is getting OLD!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlasl Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 How is your dog with other dogs generally? One of the suggestions I read about and then used successfully is to let the two dogs that are fence fighting play together. Sometimes they only reason they are doing it is because of the frustration of the fence. Of course if your dog or their dog is aggressive to other dogs that is probably not a good idea, but if both are usually friendly to other dogs then it can work. Use dog fight prevention guidlines though to be ready to break up a fight (dog bite gloves, citronella, long lines if you have to). If that doesn't work then I would talk to the owner about trying not to let her dog out when yours it out and you would do the same for her. Or you could also try some fence barriers so they can't see each other. Of course giving your neighbor the bird doesn't really open up lines of communication very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anda Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Try talking to her, it sounds like she thinks this is a great way to exercise her dog. She is probably unaware of your frustration and your muddy dog One piece of advice - don't take him on a flexi leash when he does that - or you might find yourself airborne and landing in the mud, like someone.. (*me*) did a couple of years ago on a certain incident involving a Border Collie, a Rhodesian Ridgeback and a fence. They were having the time of their lives, btw, not agressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Scooter is not normally dog aggressive, but these encounters seem like more than frustration. Not sure how they'd react if they were in the same area. The owners are not friendly with any of the neighbors. We've waved and said hi when we've been in our yards together and they totally ignore us. I realize giving her the bird was not the most neighborly thing to do, but I was in no mood to deal with it today. Anda, never have used a Flexi. Heard too many horror stories and seen them used on other dogs with disastrous effects. Wish our neighborhood allowed privacy fences! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Wish our neighborhood allowed privacy fences! Quinn will try to fence fight with the little poodles behind us and I have a privacy fence, so that isn't the answer. Fence running often turns into fence fighting and it's a very self-rewarding activity. What I found works for my dogs is a combination of positive reinforcement for calling off quickly or before the actual fence running starts, reinforcing for ignoring the temptation and correcting for engaging in the fence fighting. My corrections consist of taking the dog inside (they really like outside especially if they are playing) and verbal ticking off. This has been very successful in bringing the noise/mud/annoyance way down. I do need to keep on top of Quinn because he can sometimes get away with it when my friends take him out at lunch. From time to time, he likes to see if maybe I no longer care but I make it a point to let him see that I do care. I also make it a point to praise or treat for the good behavior I want. As far as flipping the bird, I understand your frustration but feuds with neighbors can be miserable or even dangerous. My mantra when my neighbors bug me (like the ones who never bother to supervise their yapping little poodles even at midnight) is "If this is the worst they ever do, I can live with it." Tolerance goes a long way when you live close to other people (you don't have to like them) , especially without a privacy fence between you. You aren't likely to change your neighbor's behaviors or that of their dogs, so you probably just want to work on training Scooter not to fence run. It can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 How did you stop him from barking at the other dogs? Can you apply it to this situation? I also endorse the methods used to train Quinn....I've been just calling the dogs in when they start chasing the crows and they're catching on very quickly that if they start going looneytoons over things flying overhead, its inside they go if they don't calm down and respond to my recall. They do get a treat when they do so and I play soccer with them for awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 How did you stop him from barking at the other dogs? Can you apply it to this situation? I just poke my head out the door and say "Hey!" and he stops. There just seems to be something about this dog that sets him off. When we're outside with him, playing Frisbee or soccer, he barely notices the other dog. If he does, I can get his attention and he leaves him alone, even if the Labradoodle is barking and racing up and down the fence trying to get him to join in. I read somewhere that I should take him, on leash, up to the fence, and walk back and forth with him while the dog is barking, then reward him when he doesn't react. Maybe a sit, stay would work. He's very good at ignoring rude or over excited dogs on walks, etc. It's just this dog. Really, it was out of character for me to use hand signals on humans. If she even saw me. Probably thought I was waving... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Land mines on the other side of the fence. Since your neighbor won't help I think what you need here is some negative re-enforcement on the doodle since you're obviously not going to be able to do it properly. Why don't you try something proactive like a squirt gun1 2. 1 Squirt gun in this context could mean anything from a spray bottle to a multi-chamber air powered super soaker. 2 Additives i.e.Dog-b-Gone or Bitter Apple, etc in a proper ratio (50-100% dilution) may also be used. In our case it's laprats that fight through a brick wall. They don't like lots of water all at once. Problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I just poke my head out the door and say "Hey!" and he stops. There just seems to be something about this dog that sets him off. When we're outside with him, playing Frisbee or soccer, he barely notices the other dog. If he does, I can get his attention and he leaves him alone, even if the Labradoodle is barking and racing up and down the fence trying to get him to join in. I read somewhere that I should take him, on leash, up to the fence, and walk back and forth with him while the dog is barking, then reward him when he doesn't react. Maybe a sit, stay would work. He's very good at ignoring rude or over excited dogs on walks, etc. It's just this dog. Really, it was out of character for me to use hand signals on humans. If she even saw me. Probably thought I was waving... Maybe the dog has the same personality as the neighbor . Seriously, if a dog knows you don't like someone, it raises their hackles as well. The leash training might work if you started far enough away that you got the good behavior right away then slowly work closer, using just a "leave it" command. He's already demonstrated that whatever attractions you offer (ball, etc) are stronger than the urge to scrap with the other dog. Glad I don't have close neighbors....just those darned crows! Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Land mines on the other side of the fence. Since your neighbor won't help I think what you need here is some negative re-enforcement on the doodle since you're obviously not going to be able to do it properly. Why don't you try something proactive like a squirt gun1 2. 1 Squirt gun in this context could mean anything from a spray bottle to a multi-chamber air powered super soaker. 2 Additives i.e.Dog-b-Gone or Bitter Apple, etc in a proper ratio (50-100% dilution) may also be used. In our case it's laprats that fight through a brick wall. They don't like lots of water all at once. Problem solved. Hmmnn ...I wouldn't suggest going after the other dog unless it was physically attacking you not just fence fighting. In this case the owner could say that the BC provoked her darling and its off to court, or worse. Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzysdad Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 For an immediate solution, I'd get panels of plywood and lay them or drill a hole if you can and zip-tie them to the fence so they can see each other. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordercentrics Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 We have one neighbor who leaves her terriers outside all day while she is at work. They have taught all new dogs to fence fight. I have used two different solutions that have worked and here they are. You might not use the first one depending on how soft your Border Collie is, though when they are in that state they can handle a lot more pressure than when they are in a normal state. 1. throw a shake can at the fence (NEVER at the dog). This would just be a pop can with some gravel or pennies in it, so it will make a sudden noise when it hits the fence. This may have the added value of correcting and changing the behavior of BOTH dogs. This worked for my Bouvier an the Beagle behind us. If you do this, be sure and praise both dogs the second they stop the behavior! 2. Ruby is my fence fighting Border Collie, and she is very soft, so I never used the shake can with her. She gets called in when she begins to bark at the terriers. We did put rolls of wire fencing up to keep her from getting right up to the regular fence, and just being unable to get nose to nose has inhibited the behavior to some extent. She now comes in when I call her no matter what she is doing, and sometimes when I go out to call her in, she is already half way to the door on her own. She knows she isn't supposed to bark at them, but sometimes she can't help herself and just has to have the last word! I really like the suggestion about leashing him up and walking him back and forth, but another poster has already told you how to do it, as you will need to keep him under threshold in order to teach him. Good luck. I just hate ignorant and irresponsible neighbors! Kathy Robbins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquilis Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I just poke my head out the door and say "Hey!" and he stops. This worked wih Suka - She suddenly realizes that she's breaking the rules and breaks off. Dakota is much more constant in her behaviors - That is to say, once she starts a behavior, she has to try and carry it through. I've found that if I don't physically get her attention in a high-reward situation, I can't redirect her. I find myself out at the fenceline with a walking stick - Not to whack, but to touch. She starts a run along the fence, and I reach out and touch her - She'll suddenly realize I'm there, and start listening to me again. I could do the same with my hand, but with hands I can only cover a six or seven foot circle. With the walking stick, I can touch a fourteen foot circle. That means that whichever way she runs at the common fenceline, I can get her attention and redirect her. She's got a bit of teanager-style defiance in her, but she's coming around - She's now begining to respond to a verbal call-off. Fair warning - This will NOT work with all dogs! I'd never try this with Suka - She's not only responsive to voice, but she's also soft enough to be emotionally tweaked by the touch-stick. Dakota, not so much so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesqf Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I've had/known very few dogs that wouldn't do this. It seems to be exercise/fun for them, rather than real aggression, since if we get them in the same yard they'd always play together quite happily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I've had/known very few dogs that wouldn't do this. It seems to be exercise/fun for them, rather than real aggression, since if we get them in the same yard they'd always play together quite happily. I think it often starts out as fun, but can easily turn to aggression. There's even a term "barrier aggression" that I think applies here. The litte poodles' owner years ago told me that he was sure our dogs would be fine friends if they met on the same side of a fence. This was with a dog that I knew looked at the yapping little fluffballs as walking marshmellows. I wouldn't chance it with Quinn either and he's not dog aggressive. But unlike your dogs, he has had 4 years of always having that barrier between him and the poodles. Personally, I don't allow fence running/fighting because my dogs don't need that kind of exercise and I don't want to deal with the mud or crazed barking. I've also heard of dogs injuring themselves from the frequent sharp turns as they run back and forth, though I don't know how common that might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I think it often starts out as fun, but can easily turn to aggression. There's even a term "barrier aggression" that I think applies here. The litte poodles' owner years ago told me that he was sure our dogs would be fine friends if they met on the same side of a fence. This was with a dog that I knew looked at the yapping little fluffballs as walking marshmellows. I wouldn't chance it with Quinn either and he's not dog aggressive. But unlike your dogs, he has had 4 years of always having that barrier between him and the poodles. Scooter and the English Bulldog next door would be fine playing together, and probably even the three little yippers next to the Bulldog, but there's something different in the body language and barking with the Labradoodle that makes me think putting Scooter and him together would end up in someone getting hurt. This needs to be resolved, with or without the neighbor's help. Scooter's intelligent and eager to please. I just haven't communicated my wishes the correct way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 So before you decided to flip your neighbor off, have you actually expressed your concern about what is going on? A lot of non-dog savvy pet people think that sort of behavior is playing and it would explain why she turns her dog out when she sees yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anda Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 So before you decided to flip your neighbor off, have you actually expressed your concern about what is going on? A lot of non-dog savvy pet people think that sort of behavior is playing and it would explain why she turns her dog out when she sees yours. That's exactly what I suggested. She might just think both dogs are having fun and the thought that this makes you upset never crossed her mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 So before you decided to flip your neighbor off, have you actually expressed your concern about what is going on? A lot of non-dog savvy pet people think that sort of behavior is playing and it would explain why she turns her dog out when she sees yours. No, I'm sorry to say, it never occurred to me that she might think of it as playing till Anda and you mentioned it. However, it's difficult to express my concerns with someone who refuses to acknowledge my existence. But, it's good to get other view points. I will make an attempt to discuss it with her. I can honestly say that in my sixty years, I've probably only flipped someone off a couple of times. As I stated before, that was out of character for me. Fibro was whipping my butt and I didn't feel like cleaning up a dirty dog and mopping floors right then. Certainly no excuse for rudeness, but a contributing factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 No, I'm sorry to say, it never occurred to me that she might think of it as playing till Anda and you mentioned it. However, it's difficult to express my concerns with someone who refuses to acknowledge my existence. But, it's good to get other view points. I will make an attempt to discuss it with her. I can honestly say that in my sixty years, I've probably only flipped someone off a couple of times. As I stated before, that was out of character for me. Fibro was whipping my butt and I didn't feel like cleaning up a dirty dog and mopping floors right then. Certainly no excuse for rudeness, but a contributing factor. As moral support here, can I just say that I understand completely that when you get angry, you don't always make the best decisions. Case in point: a couple years ago my grandmother confided to me that she flipped off some "hoodlums" (her word) after they took her wallet in the parking lot of Burlington Coat Factory. Not the best decision there either. But add the fact that my grandmother was 80 and this was the first time she'd gone shopping after finishing chemotherapy, and all of a sudden it's kind of hard to blame her. And since I feel about dogs like my grandma does about shopping I totally don't blame you either! If this were me I would try salvage the situation with my neighbor though. I might buy a treat or toy for the dog across the fence (probably a toy, so she wouldn't think I was trying to poison her dog or anything, since I did flip her off, haha!). Then I might bring it over the next time this happens and go to talk to her, being extra friendly to the dog as I approach her, then handing her the toy and saying that I admire her dog's playfulness or something, but my dog doesn't seem to think it's play? I bet Scooter does know you don't like her dog too. Vala is very grumbly/talky when two particular dogs walk by on the street in front of our house. For the longest time I thought she was holding a grudge because one of them (a chihuahua type) snapped at her the first itme she met him. Though it looked like fear aggression to me, and I didn't blame the dog, I did blame the owner for saying her dogs would love to meet mine when I asked (Vala is very polite and deferential, so if they had a problem with her, likely they had a problem with lots of dogs her size)?? And now it occurs to me that Vala might have picked up on my negative feelings in that situation and be warning me when they're passing! Glad it's only grumbling really, and dependably relates to this person and her two chihuahuas, and Vala reliably hushes when I thank her for the PSA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Rule number one when dealing with the clueless, or with neighbors: never give them ammo. I would not tell the neighbor that you think the fence-running is making your dog aggressive, or frustrated. That just gives her a reason to think the onus is on you alone to train your dog, and if they ever do get loose together and something happens then she will be able to say that you told her your dog was aggressive. I hate thinking like this about neighbors, but generally I've learned that this is the way you have to deal with these kinds of people. I would simply tell her that you would appreciate it if she did not let her dog out to "play" with yours in this manner, because it makes him very dirty and with your health condition it is difficult for you to clean him up every time he comes back into the house. If he has any sorts of joint problems I would throw that in there too and tell her that he is not healthy enough to run the fence like that, that you are trying not to overstrain him, or something like that. You have to give her reasons that she might relate to or feel sympathy for. I am glad that none of my dogs do this. My neighbors have two retrievers who live in the backyard and make monster noises all day. I can hear them trying to instigate from the other side of the fence, but my pack ignores them. Well, Jett used to try to make friends with them through the fence, but I guess she finally realized that they can't see her, as it is a privacy fence. I was surprised that Solo didn't throw down the first time they challenged him, but they can be right on the other side of the fence, literally inches from him, and he just doesn't care. I doubt he'd be so blase if it weren't a privacy fence though, so I feel for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I would try what Melanie suggests first. If that does not solve the problem, I know there is something out there that attaches to the fence that emits high frequency sounds when dogs start barking or you could make one. I have no clue where to get one but I could have sworn a few years back my mom and stepfather used one because the neighbors dog was barking constantly. They did do this with the neighbors permission though but I see nothing wrong with trying something like this. You can say you are training your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pammyd Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Oh thats a pain that she is letting her dog out at the same time How about some CU premark principle?? Send your dog to the fence then any time he gives you any kind of attention - or even just takes focus of the other dog for 1s reward then send him back to play at the fence After a short while he should start breaking off and coming to you for treats, ask for a trick then send him back to bark at the fence, then ask for more tricks and send him back What should happen is the time fence chasing will reduce - it will become less interesting - and the tricks more rewarding as not only are they getting treats for it but they are getting sent back to play at the fence It worked for Mia and train chasing in the park Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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