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Just finished the monthly battle with nail trimming and flea treatment. I've been away for a few days and the pups get little discipline from "Mr Squeaky Toy" . Robin is trying to be top dog and has lately been showing signs of guarding me and just being generally snotty when Brodie approached. I scruffed him up by the neck in the air several times last week (not easy when he weighs nearly forty pounds now) and had thought he learned his lesson now but now today (my first day back home), he snapped when Brodie tried to approach me, for which he received a severe correction; then when I started to clip his nails, snapped at me for which he got a big whallup. He settled right down and I clipped the other three paws without a struggle. He could have been a poster child for good behavior as I finished his nails and groomed him, for which he was highly praised. I recognize that he's starting to test situations but how long am I going to have to come down so hard on him? I felt like an abusive parent, but I can't tolerate that kind of behavior.

 

Liz

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I think I mentioned it previously but I would suggest you get the book called "MINE" by Jean Donaldson http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB740 if your dog is resource guarding, physically correcting them can backfire (depends on how the dog is wired). The book "Fight" by the same author has a specific section on dog to dog resource guarding.

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I think I mentioned it previously but I would suggest you get the book called "MINE" by Jean Donaldson http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB740 if your dog is resource guarding, physically correcting them can backfire (depends on how the dog is wired). The book "Fight" by the same author has a specific section on dog to dog resource guarding.

 

I was looking at that website today and that book was mentioned.....this is worse than raising kids :rolleyes:

 

Liz

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i agree correction can backfire

if a dog is growling or snapping it is letting you know it is not happy with a situation

punishment may suppress the growl or the snap but it does not make the dog happy with the situation, and then he has no way to let you know when something he is v unhappy with the only option left (as he sees it) is to attack silently and swiftly before you can correct.

 

i find it much easier to make the dog happier with the situation

ben used to resource guard me from other dogs

i had him sit one side of me and the dog the other, give ben rapid fire treats while i petted the dog, then touch the dog and straight away treat ben, pat the dog, treat ben. i kept building it up until a dog could come up, be made a fuss of and then walk away all the time ben sitting excitedly wwagging tail in expectation of the great treat, and over time the treats were phased out as ben associated me patting a strange dog with him being happy

 

same for the nails and frontline

if it is monthly then you have a month to train them

reward for getting nail clippers out, do that for a few days till dog loves you getting nail clippers out

then reward for lying down when you have them

rewrd for touching feet, and so on

i also find it great to do this little routine right before a walk and then the dog willl think of them as really nice things, bet if you do it a couple of times a day for 30sec a time by the end of the month your dog will be rolling over waving his paws in the air when he sees the nail clippers

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i agree correction can backfire

if a dog is growling or snapping it is letting you know it is not happy with a situation

punishment may suppress the growl or the snap but it does not make the dog happy with the situation, and then he has no way to let you know when something he is v unhappy with the only option left (as he sees it) is to attack silently and swiftly before you can correct.

 

i find it much easier to make the dog happier with the situation

ben used to resource guard me from other dogs

i had him sit one side of me and the dog the other, give ben rapid fire treats while i petted the dog, then touch the dog and straight away treat ben, pat the dog, treat ben. i kept building it up until a dog could come up, be made a fuss of and then walk away all the time ben sitting excitedly wwagging tail in expectation of the great treat, and over time the treats were phased out as ben associated me patting a strange dog with him being happy

 

same for the nails and frontline

if it is monthly then you have a month to train them

reward for getting nail clippers out, do that for a few days till dog loves you getting nail clippers out

then reward for lying down when you have them

rewrd for touching feet, and so on

i also find it great to do this little routine right before a walk and then the dog willl think of them as really nice things, bet if you do it a couple of times a day for 30sec a time by the end of the month your dog will be rolling over waving his paws in the air when he sees the nail clippers

 

 

Well, the pups have been lining up for treats ever since they arrived so they know first one and then the other and have never grabbed or snarled when waiting for a treat. This has just started -- Robin snarling at Brodie when he walks up for no reason.

 

The flea treatment isn't the problem and since last month, I have been working at desensitizing -- they know now to give "paw" and "other paw" and they know what the clippers look like. I also give a treat for each nail that I clip....

 

I think today was just a tussle for dominance and he's going to lose that argument.

 

Liz

 

Liz

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a dog is never doing something for no reason, just because you cant see the reason

 

walking up is different than sitting beside and that might be more threataning

 

i am glad you are treating for the nail cutting

 

if this is out of the ordinary behaviour then i would get to the vets as its possible that a pain or something can be making him a bit more sensitive

 

i am sorry you feel it is dominance, it can really spoil your fun with your dog if you are always on the lookout for ways they might be taking over rather than just seeing things as training oppertunities

 

even if i did think dogs were ever trying to dominate us i fail to see how a dog not liking having its nails cut is making a bid for leadership of the house

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a dog is never doing something for no reason, just because you cant see the reason

 

walking up is different than sitting beside and that might be more threataning

 

i am glad you are treating for the nail cutting

 

if this is out of the ordinary behaviour then i would get to the vets as its possible that a pain or something can be making him a bit more sensitive

 

i am sorry you feel it is dominance, it can really spoil your fun with your dog if you are always on the lookout for ways they might be taking over rather than just seeing things as training oppertunities

 

even if i did think dogs were ever trying to dominate us i fail to see how a dog not liking having its nails cut is making a bid for leadership of the house

 

 

Well, if I backed off because of his behavior and don't cut them, he wins right? Wins stack up and pretty soon you have a dog that thinks he can do anything if he growls or snaps.

 

 

The only thing out of the ordinary is that I hadn't been around for three days to impose order on our little kingdom. My husband is an absolute failure at discipline. They jump on and off his lap at will, chew anything they can get their hands on and generally act like nuts when he's in charge of the wildlife around here :rolleyes:.

 

Our late rescue Scotty came to us with dominance issues so I'm sure I am sensitive for signs of dominance but handling Scotty did teach me that firm corrections are necessary for growling and snapping, which is not allowed for any reason. It's no different than one pup correcting another for being too rough and you've just got to be very firm in demonstrate superiority and then its over. Scotty was snapping and everyone and everything when he came here and after a few tussles he learned that wasn't acceptable behavior and he just gave it up in the face of a superior power. That habit though nearly cost him his life because he'd been taken to the vet to be put down for it and the vet recognized that it was an owner problem not a dog problem and called rescue and he came to us. After he died I was reminiscing about how he was such a snapper and my husband, who has been his first victim, just shook his head and said, "I can't imagine Scotty biting anyone." because his personality had changed so much.

 

Robin can take a firm correction and not hold a grudge, not that firm corrections are habitual in our house. If you take a cannon out every time something happens, then pretty soon you are in shambles. Our little episode lasted about 30 seconds - he snapped and I snapped back, end of discussion and then he was as good as gold. He got his cookies and a nice rubdown and after that we played ball for half an hour and he brought it right to me every time.

 

Some of the behavior is likely backlash probably from me giving him special treats -- I didn't get a chance to bond with him as a small pup, and in fact pushed him away a great deal because I physically couldn't take the jumping and the potential for germs from a scratch because I was very sick. For the past few months, I've been taking him away from the other two, usually into our bedroom and giving him private playtime, some clicker training and a toy or a bone of his very own because Brodie snatches anything he gets when they're together. And it was in the bedroom where he went after Brodie who just wandered in innocently. I was thinking today that I probably should have waited until now to get a pup because I"m finally physically ready to deal with one.

 

Since last month when I had problems with nail clipping (struggles but no snaps or growling), every day at least 3 times a day I've handled his paws, both alone and with the other two - line them up and then go down the line paw other paw and then they all lie down and get a treat at the end and all is fun and games but generally Robin has never enjoyed being "handled" -- he's just that kind of dog. Even before his eyes were open he protested about being turned on his back and I'm still coaxing him to flop over - we do it in stages for a "tummy rub" - He doesn't mind being groomed and he loves to be petted so its not that he's unfriendly, but he doesn't like to be pushed into something - still he's got to accept being handled for various treatments, such as nail clipping.

 

He did do something really funny this afternoon in chasing down the ball...somehow he did a complete somersault with it, head tuck and all. He is a funny, beautiful boy and you are right -- if we could only figure out the reasons for the behaviors, the relationship is much, much smoother. I keep studying them and it is interesting because they all have such different personalities and each one requires a different approach.

 

Liz

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its not about winning, your dog is communicating with you, you are teaching it that it is now not alowed to tell you when it is unhappy, that is cruel

 

this thread has bugged me all night

when i cam on this forum over a year before getting my dog i learnt lots about positive training and setting a dog up to suceed

when i got ben i was able to impliment that and i saw fantastic results

when i got my rescue mia she had so many behavioural problem (that many people would class as dominance) but i had stratigied to handle that and she was able to relax and is now a totally different dog

the methods ilearnt on here so inspired me that i am now training to be a behaviourist

 

now i come back on this forum and see a thread like this, i really hope this is not how things are heading

 

the thing that has stuck in my head the most is 'scruffing a 40 pound dog right up into the air'

sure mother dogs pick up tiny puppies

to move them, possibly to restrain them and who knows mibby to tell them off

 

this is very light tiny puppies with lots of loose skin at their scruff

 

this is a mother dog who has no hands and a smaller brain than us

 

dogs do not pick up fully grown dogs and dogs dont do it to show who the boss is, the pups already know who their mother is

 

i am sure you are doing everything with the best intentions but when you say you feel like an abusive parent that shows that this type of training is making you feel uncomfy somewhere deep inside

honestly there are ways to train that will make you and your dog even happier (and him better behaived) and your life less a battle to stop your dog taking over and enable you to understand and enjoy him better

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I agree that dogs shouldn't be allowed to growl at their owners, willy nilly. I'm curious what the forum thinks!

 

My dog doesn't really challenge me - he pretty much lets me do what I need to do. The only times he's growled at me were when I was hurting him. Once, he had an injury, and I didn't know it, and stuck my hand right into his wound. The other time, we were lying on the bed, and I rolled over in such a way that I pinched and pulled his fur. I deliberately chose not to give corrections in those situations, because Buddy was absolutely right to ask me not to injure him.

 

I haven't been able to fix Buddy's fearful reactivity when other dogs charge us. He just gets pushed over his threshold too fast and too hard, and he'll growl and snap. But I do know with certainty that adding pain and discomfort to his nervousness and fear did NOT work. I tried it, and saw Buddy start to exhibit "shut down" behaviors. It was like he couldn't trust the other dog, and then he couldn't trust me, either, so he was just giving up.

 

Sounds like your dog is showing a different purpose for growling, when he's guarding you from others. I'm no expert, but I do think having a protocol in place (Pam Denison is good, and so is Patricia McConnell) might be a good thing. Some kind of redirect to the behavior you want the dog to exhibit. I remember my dog used to snark at my sister's dog, early on - and I think I did remove him and isolate him as his "punishment" until he got the idea that he had to be polite to her. (They're funny now - like siblings who really don't care for each other, but know they have to 'play nice' in order to be among the family. Strained politeness, the minimum of small talk, and ignore each other otherwise.)

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I agree that dogs shouldn't be allowed to growl at their owners, willy nilly. I'm curious what the forum thinks!

 

My dog doesn't really challenge me - he pretty much lets me do what I need to do. The only times he's growled at me were when I was hurting him. Once, he had an injury, and I didn't know it, and stuck my hand right into his wound. The other time, we were lying on the bed, and I rolled over in such a way that I pinched and pulled his fur. I deliberately chose not to give corrections in those situations, because Buddy was absolutely right to ask me not to injure him.

 

I haven't been able to fix Buddy's fearful reactivity when other dogs charge us. He just gets pushed over his threshold too fast and too hard, and he'll growl and snap. But I do know with certainty that adding pain and discomfort to his nervousness and fear did NOT work. I tried it, and saw Buddy start to exhibit "shut down" behaviors. It was like he couldn't trust the other dog, and then he couldn't trust me, either, so he was just giving up.

 

Sounds like your dog is showing a different purpose for growling, when he's guarding you from others. I'm no expert, but I do think having a protocol in place (Pam Denison is good, and so is Patricia McConnell) might be a good thing. Some kind of redirect to the behavior you want the dog to exhibit. I remember my dog used to snark at my sister's dog, early on - and I think I did remove him and isolate him as his "punishment" until he got the idea that he had to be polite to her. (They're funny now - like siblings who really don't care for each other, but know they have to 'play nice' in order to be among the family. Strained politeness, the minimum of small talk, and ignore each other otherwise.)

 

 

I have two of McConnell's books - used them when we got Scotty and most of the suggestions worked amazingly well.

 

I liked your comment about siblings -- one problem with adopting littermates is that they might not like each other as adults, just like people. They seem to get along just fine together, except in the bedroom. Robin has the idea that is his "special place" and I've put in it in his head, so out it will come- gently. He's also fighting a rear gaurd battle with Ladybug, who does quite sneakily push him around a great deal, so I think he's just "paying it forward" so to speak. I need to keep a closer eye on her.

 

Liz

 

Liz

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its not about winning, your dog is communicating with you, you are teaching it that it is now not alowed to tell you when it is unhappy, that is cruel

 

this thread has bugged me all night

when i cam on this forum over a year before getting my dog i learnt lots about positive training and setting a dog up to suceed

when i got ben i was able to impliment that and i saw fantastic results

when i got my rescue mia she had so many behavioural problem (that many people would class as dominance) but i had stratigied to handle that and she was able to relax and is now a totally different dog

the methods ilearnt on here so inspired me that i am now training to be a behaviourist

 

now i come back on this forum and see a thread like this, i really hope this is not how things are heading

 

the thing that has stuck in my head the most is 'scruffing a 40 pound dog right up into the air'

sure mother dogs pick up tiny puppies

to move them, possibly to restrain them and who knows mibby to tell them off

 

this is very light tiny puppies with lots of loose skin at their scruff

 

this is a mother dog who has no hands and a smaller brain than us

 

dogs do not pick up fully grown dogs and dogs dont do it to show who the boss is, the pups already know who their mother is

 

i am sure you are doing everything with the best intentions but when you say you feel like an abusive parent that shows that this type of training is making you feel uncomfy somewhere deep inside

honestly there are ways to train that will make you and your dog even happier (and him better behaived) and your life less a battle to stop your dog taking over and enable you to understand and enjoy him better

 

OF course it does make me feel uncomfortable but after three months of baiting with treats and then having him snap at me, the gentle approach obviously ain't working. I fully endorse positive training and have been gentle with these guys since day one...more so than their mother would be...

 

You say you're studying to be an animal behaviorist, you need to carefully observe the interactions between mother and pups.Have you witnessed a mother dog disciplining her pups? It's a real eye opener. I watched Robin's mother roll him and her other pups around like bowling balls when she didn't like their behavior. Mother dogs are a great deal more strict than you might think. Aggressive behavior beyond play barking and growling is simply not tolerated in the litter. Robin is only six months old...a pup still and needs to understand that Mom can get tough if the situation warrants. If he were three or four years old, and showing signs of aggression, he would be handled entirely differently.

 

Like you, I always feel there's a better way than physical correction but as I said, that sometimes you have to get down on their level. When a dog doesn't like something another dog is doing it bites back. That's all it is. I fully endorse positive training and use it every day.

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I have two of McConnell's books - used them when we got Scotty and most of the suggestions worked amazingly well.

 

 

 

Liz

 

Do you have "The other End of the Leash".....? If so you need to re-read the section on Dominance aggression.

 

Resource guarding is NOT dominance aggression, neither is snapping about nail clipping.

 

I am not saying your dog should get away with snapping or growling, I just think physically correcting him may backfire. We are not dogs and we cannot correct them the way dogs do, Dogs do not roll each other over (except in play), the submissive dog rolls over ON ITS OWN, by the the body language (or growling) of the more dominant dog. Corrections for rough play between dogs are generally a loud bark and a enhibited muzzle bite.

 

Growling is communication and you need to "re-program" Robin to think that his brother coming in the room and him being good about it, means good things for him, because by physically correcting him you can be inadvertently encouraging aggressive behavior, now he could think, when my brother comes in I get shook and yelled at, next time I better run him out the room completely because when he comes in the room bad things happen.

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I have have had many dog aggressive dogs and currently have 1 that was really bad. I have gotten her over it using Cesar Milans way of doing things. I don't know if dog people are the same way that horse people are about "tv trainers" but I have to say the stuff really works!!

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Do you have "The other End of the Leash".....? If so you need to re-read the section on Dominance aggression.

 

Resource guarding is NOT dominance aggression, neither is snapping about nail clipping.

 

I am not saying your dog should get away with snapping or growling, I just think physically correcting him may backfire. We are not dogs and we cannot correct them the way dogs do, Dogs do not roll each other over (except in play), the submissive dog rolls over ON ITS OWN, by the the body language (or growling) of the more dominant dog. Corrections for rough play between dogs are generally a loud bark and a enhibited muzzle bite.

 

Growling is communication and you need to "re-program" Robin to think that his brother coming in the room and him being good about it, means good things for him, because by physically correcting him you can be inadvertently encouraging aggressive behavior, now he could think, when my brother comes in I get shook and yelled at, next time I better run him out the room completely because when he comes in the room bad things happen.

 

Good point, Carla -- as I've said, I've put it into his head that the bedroom is "his" - and yes, I do have the Other End of the Leash....that chapter is dog eared from working with Scotty, but a pup testing his limits is different than a grown dog with aggression problems, especially fear aggression.

 

And, yes a mother does roll and push at her pups sometimes quite aggressively. I've spent hours watching Daisy interact with her litter and believe me, those pups were corrected when they got out of line, including rolling them across the porch like bowling balls if they got too pushy and holding them down with her paw until they calmed down. When they came here and started tousling, Ladybug (who had had previous litters before she came here), broke them up if they started tousling too seriously.

 

You are correct that adult dogs show submissiveness by rolling over and I can't stop Robin from being the dominant dog in the house, and wouldn't want to if that's his role but hopefully I can teach him how to be a good leader and not a spoiled brat. He's a cheerful good-natured (not so little) pup and I intend to keep him that way. He snapped at me because he doesn't like having his nails clipped and unfortunately for him, he does have to put up with it and snapping cannot be be tolerated. I've previously tried baiting him, rewarding him, calming him, all the stuff but when he escalated, I had to as well. What he got, in your lingo was a loud bark and an inhibited muzzle bite. His reaction was, okay fine, we've settled that now. It's almost a surety that I won't have to do it again in that situation because he's smart enough not to try again.

 

I see now that I've labeled my post wrong. Robin is testing his limits, not being aggressive. He's thinking he can push his brother around a bit, maybe he can try it on me. If folks want to put up with a dog that snaps at the handler or anyone else for any reason, provoked because they are being handled or unprovoked, I wish them the best and a good health insurance policy, as well as liability insurance 'cause they are going to need it. I can read the signals and recognize when a dog is getting nervous and needs reassurance and to back off a bit to give them time to adjust to unfamiliar situations. But this was a familiar situation and my rule is no teeth, ever.

 

 

You have a good suggestion in reprogramming Robin....we'll start working somewhere else for a start. Changing the place might help. I can also make sure that Brodie is crated so he doesn't wander in haphazardly and interrupt the lesson.

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I have to agree with Carlasl. Dominant dogs do not "alpha roll" other dogs, it is the submissive that rolls on it's own. You should never force a dog to do this, this is how people get bit. I also don't think you need to be scruffing anyone either. Or giving him a whallup.

 

I second the recommendation of you re-reading or reading the other end of the leash and the section on Dominance aggression.

 

It's very easy to become an assertive owner using positive only methods. I've done it, I have a dog reactive dog, she's scared of strangers, new things, very fearful. If you didn't know she was actually fearful, you'd take her as severely aggressive. My dog knows that I will not let anything bad happen to her, she trusts me and I will do everything in my power to keep that trust. If she doesn't have someone to trust, she has nothing. I didn't gain that trust by "showing her who's boss". I gained it by teaching her she could trust me. The only thing that scruffs and smacks get you is a dog who's afraid. If a dog is afraid, eventually there will be a breaking point. If you continue to physically correct your dog for "guarding" you from the other dog, you may have a bigger mess on your hands when these guys are full grown and they decided to get into an all out battle. There won't be any warning signs either, you will have scared them away.

 

You've already been given a couple of really good book references.

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I agree that dogs shouldn't be allowed to growl at their owners, willy nilly. I'm curious what the forum thinks!

 

My view on this is most likely different from most, but I'll throw it out there for the sake of art.

 

I consider growling by a dog as a form of communication - nothing more and nothing less. I also consider it a form of communication that can mean many things, depending on the "tone" of the growl, the situation, and the dog. I'm not offended by it, but I take it as seriously as I need to take it, given the dog and the situation.

 

Sammie growls when we clip his nails. He has done this for his entire life. It's his way of showing that he's not pleased with the process. We have no problem with it. It is obviously very controlled, on his part, and it never goes any further. Were we to try to suppress it, we might end up with a real problem on our hands. As it is, we get him comfortable, clip his nails, he growls a bit while we do that. Then he gets some love and life goes on. He is not trying to assert "dominance". He is not threatening us in any way. He is simply expressing his displeasure at getting his nails clipped. My husband and I are fine with that.

 

One time I was working with a dog (not one of my own) and the dog looked at me and growled. The meaning was clear. I immediately left the room, and it was a good move. The dog went ballistic. I am very grateful to that dog for giving me a clear warning. Had I tried to "fix" the growling, or put the dog "in his place", I would have gotten bit.

 

Two different dogs, two different situations, two different appropriate responses on my part.

 

That's not to say that I never intervene. Maddie gets a burr under her saddle sometimes when she is under the futon and the Border Collies are playing ball near her and she starts growling and grunting at them. In that case she is just being the fun police. I'll tell her to be quiet, and sometimes I'll move her. In this case, she is showing that she doesn't want all that ruckus near her, so I let her know that she can put up with it or go somewhere else.

 

My dogs rarely growl at me, but 99% of the time when they do, it's a non-issue. Sometimes they growl at me by mistake, thinking that one of the other dogs is messing with them. Whatever. In a house with four dogs and two humans, that will happen. Space seems to be the commodity that gets growled about the most. I usually laugh at them for it. Speedy will growl if he is in pain and one of us try to move him to quickly or the wrong way. Well, if I had the amount of arthritis he has, I probably wouldn't be as good natured as he is. He's entitled to a growl or two when we aren't careful with him when he's stiff or painful.

 

To the OP: Have you tried separating them when they get into it with each other. I've had issues with Sammie and Dean scrapping over space in the house, and I started sending them into separate rooms whenever they got growly with each other. Dean actually learned that when I put Sammie in the big bedroom, he would run into the computer room. They got a bit of time to cool off and then they could come out to try again.

 

It has helped a great deal over time.

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Root Beer - totaly agree

 

OF course it does make me feel uncomfortable but after three months of baiting with treats and then having him snap at me, the gentle approach obviously ain't working. I fully endorse positive training and have been gentle with these guys since day one...more so than their mother would be...

 

You say you're studying to be an animal behaviorist, you need to carefully observe the interactions between mother and pups.Have you witnessed a mother dog disciplining her pups? It's a real eye opener. I watched Robin's mother roll him and her other pups around like bowling balls when she didn't like their behavior. Mother dogs are a great deal more strict than you might think. Aggressive behavior beyond play barking and growling is simply not tolerated in the litter. Robin is only six months old...a pup still and needs to understand that Mom can get tough if the situation warrants. If he were three or four years old, and showing signs of aggression, he would be handled entirely differently.

 

Like you, I always feel there's a better way than physical correction but as I said, that sometimes you have to get down on their level. When a dog doesn't like something another dog is doing it bites back. That's all it is. I fully endorse positive training and use it every day.

 

:rolleyes: I am observing every type of interaction between dogs and dogs, dogs and pups, and dogs and humans

Some mother dogs may be strict - but I am not a dog, my dogs dont act towards me like they act towards other dogs. Also, although I am observing and reading everything I can on dogs communication I realise what a vast subject it is and no one human will ever totaly understand the subtle movments of eyes, ears, hair, body, tail, sound and smell that dogs use to comunicate

When a dog dosent like something another dog does he does not bite - he builds up the signals slowly giving the other dog plenty of options to change its behaviour - it may freeze, harden the eyes, lower the head, raise hackles, curl lip, lick lip, growl, air snap, charge at the dog, and then if all this fails the dog may THEN bite. Us humans when we punish tend to not understand the subtle build up of warnings and punishment and from a dogs point of view we punnish without warning and too excessivly for the situation

 

 

I have have had many dog aggressive dogs and currently have 1 that was really bad. I have gotten her over it using Cesar Milans way of doing things. I don't know if dog people are the same way that horse people are about "tv trainers" but I have to say the stuff really works!!

I am glad you have had improvments but depending on WHICH of CM's methods you have used you might not have seen the improvments for the reasons you think you have

SOME of CM's methods are harmless enough - but as all his TV shows warn - you shouldnt try it at home

have a look at this http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sophia-yin/e...s_b_204482.html

 

bc4pack, thanks for the link - just reading through it but it looks interesting so far

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To the OP: Have you tried separating them when they get into it with each other. I've had issues with Sammie and Dean scrapping over space in the house, and I started sending them into separate rooms whenever they got growly with each other. Dean actually learned that when I put Sammie in the big bedroom, he would run into the computer room. They got a bit of time to cool off and then they could come out to try again.

 

It has helped a great deal over time.

 

 

I've been starting that routine over the past few weeks as I noticed their play escalating into scrapes. Now that they're getting bigger and not so fond of chewing everything in sight or deviling the cat, I let one pup out to wander for a bit while the other one has crate time. For example, today Robin went to town and is tired from his big day, so Brodie gets (limited) freedom of the house for awhile. Ladybug gets the run of the place all the time of course, but there's no reason for the two pups to be out charging around together. They get into too much mischief as a team even before they'd consider scrapping together. I can't believe the messes I come home to because my husband lets them out then falls asleep in his recliner while they proceed to empty the waste basket in his office and shred every paper in it to confetti. They've also gotten into the soda recycling box and had a real party with the plastic bottles.

 

 

I don't want everyone to think I'm harsh with my dogs; I'm not at all and my definition of "wallop" is really a very small correction. A dog should never bite or offer to bite when he's being handled appropriately, which I was. He just has sensitive paws and doesn't like them squeezed when I go to clip the nails. ONce he stopped fighting me, I didn't have to hold on to him so hard and he became more comfortable with the procedure and we proceeded without further incident. These pups are the biggest spoiled bums in the world and they behave with me because they've been treated kindly , rewarded appropriately, and I watch them so they stay out of trouble. I had Robin in town today and he was so good with everyone he met, including an 88 year old lady at the grocery store who had lost her border collie due to a neighbor's carelessness. She'll never get another dog - no rescue or humane society would let her adopt at her age but she sure enjoyed meeting Robin and he was so well behaved with her. He understands now that he needs to sit before he'll be petted and he does it automatically. I was very proud of my guy today.

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My view on this is most likely different from most, but I'll throw it out there for the sake of art.

 

I consider growling by a dog as a form of communication - nothing more and nothing less. I also consider it a form of communication that can mean many things, depending on the "tone" of the growl, the situation, and the dog. I'm not offended by it, but I take it as seriously as I need to take it, given the dog and the situation.

 

I agree. I am so glad that I learned that a growl doesn't always equal a challenge, doesn't mean the dog is trying to dominate or whatever. It can just as easily mean "I'm scared/uncomfortable/unhappy". It took the win/lose out of the situation for me, especially when it came to things like nail trimming and resource guarding. It's not about winning. It's about teaching the dog to be comfortable with whatever scenario.

 

As to desensitization not working, I have to question at what point the OP started, how quickly they moved forward, and how high the rate of reinforcement was. When I first started working with my pit bull who would bite over nail trims, I didn't get anywhere near his feet, and I used a ton of treats with him every single time. Not just mess with his feet and give him a cookie and release him, but feed him tons of tiny treats while stroking his shoulders and down his legs, feed while messing with his feet, and when the messing stopped, the food stopped. I can trim his nails without help or a struggle now, and that's tremendously important to me. He's not thrilled by it- he licks his nose after every trim which signals to me that he's stressed- but he trusts me and he trusts the routine.

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I agree. I am so glad that I learned that a growl doesn't always equal a challenge, doesn't mean the dog is trying to dominate or whatever. It can just as easily mean "I'm scared/uncomfortable/unhappy". It took the win/lose out of the situation for me, especially when it came to things like nail trimming and resource guarding. It's not about winning. It's about teaching the dog to be comfortable with whatever scenario.

 

As to desensitization not working, I have to question at what point the OP started, how quickly they moved forward, and how high the rate of reinforcement was. When I first started working with my pit bull who would bite over nail trims, I didn't get anywhere near his feet, and I used a ton of treats with him every single time. Not just mess with his feet and give him a cookie and release him, but feed him tons of tiny treats while stroking his shoulders and down his legs, feed while messing with his feet, and when the messing stopped, the food stopped. I can trim his nails without help or a struggle now, and that's tremendously important to me. He's not thrilled by it- he licks his nose after every trim which signals to me that he's stressed- but he trusts me and he trusts the routine.

 

 

I would agree that for dogs, nail clipping is equal to a human trip to the dentist; they dread it and the adrenaline is high. Even Ladybug, who willingly offers her paw, tenses when I clip. She has all black claws and I'm sure there was at least one time that she got clipped too short. Scotty always growled softly and turned his head when he handed me one paw -- there was one nail that was particularly sensitive and needed to be left longer. I accept all that with no problem.

 

 

This isn't an older dog with a history, but a teenager learning how to be a very good dog. This is a dog that comes to me with the expectation of being towel dried when he gets wet playing in the dew covered grass in the morning. I've handled this pup all over since he was two days old, including his paws, the individual pads and his nails, and since he's been old enough to get them, he's had cookies and praise every time I've touched his paws, with or without trimming nails. I've never clipped a nail too short. I've never used a dremel tool on him. I start and end each grooming session with a gentle brushing which he loves.

 

Did anybody ever think that if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's just a duck. He snapped at me because he just plain didn't want to have his nails clipped yesterday. No deep psychology; just a teenager being willful and trying out new powers. Raise your own paw if you're willing to allow your dog get in the habit of snapping at you. He just plain wanted to test me. Once we had our discussion, he settled right down and we had a good time finishing the session and then playing. Plus, he sat there and watched his brother and Ladybug go through the clipping and grooming routine -- and I might add, they gave no fuss. Perhaps I should have started with Ladybug as a good example. He willingly offered both of his paws (paw other paw routine) to a lady in the feed store who asked to pet him and all who witnessed his behavior agreed that he had very good manners for a six month old pup.

 

 

My original question was, how long does the "testing" go on in this teenage phase....McConnell notes that your dog reads you and tests your limits every day, which is why some days they act up and some days they don't. Like kids, they know when to stretch the leash. I was tired and emotionally worn out from my trip to visit a very sick family member and perhaps he knew it and tried out a new trick that backfired on him and he accepted that.

 

I do value all of your advice, particularly in handling the growling at Brodie and I'll put some of your tips in motion. Again, I think he's trying out new powers and will be easy to bring in line, providing I can build Brodie's confidence. Each time he backs down, Robin gets an inch taller.

Liz

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He snapped at me because he just plain didn't want to have his nails clipped yesterday. No deep psychology; just a teenager being willful and trying out new powers. Raise your own paw if you're willing to allow your dog get in the habit of snapping at you. He just plain wanted to test me.

 

Actually I'd call this "deep psychology". Moreso than the possibility that he was simply uncomfortable and snapped to show you that because it was the natural, instinctive response for the dog to make in the situation. I know it sounds like I'm being argumentative, but I'm not. Just bouncing my opinion back into the mix! :rolleyes:

 

I'm not saying that I don't do anything if a young dog were to snap at me. I would definitely handle it in a different way than you did, but I would certainly work with my dog to change the behavior. Not because I would feel that the dog is being "willful" or "testing", but simply to teach good manners to an animal that does not yet know any different.

 

A different view, perhaps, but one that I found made Dean's teenage stage much more enjoyable for both of us than it would have been if I had been worried about him "testing" me constantly or being "willful". And believe me, he was a "teenager" who would have been regarded that way by most. I'm not saying the way I handled it is objectively better, but it definitely worked for us. He's four years old now and I can honestly say I wouldn't have done much differently, looking back.

 

As to the original question, the full blown "adolescent" stage typically comes to an end somewhere between two and three years of age. That's a ballpark estimate, of course, but usually by three years old, they are more adult than "teen" in their day to day actions and choices. Some are more mature by the time they are two, but I've found that I really see the brain "kick in" around and just after the dog turns three.

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Actually I'd call this "deep psychology". Moreso than the possibility that he was simply uncomfortable and snapped to show you that because it was the natural, instinctive response for the dog to make in the situation. I know it sounds like I'm being argumentative, but I'm not. Just bouncing my opinion back into the mix! :rolleyes:

 

I'm not saying that I don't do anything if a young dog were to snap at me. I would definitely handle it in a different way than you did, but I would certainly work with my dog to change the behavior. Not because I would feel that the dog is being "willful" or "testing", but simply to teach good manners to an animal that does not yet know any different.

 

A different view, perhaps, but one that I found made Dean's teenage stage much more enjoyable for both of us than it would have been if I had been worried about him "testing" me constantly or being "willful". And believe me, he was a "teenager" who would have been regarded that way by most. I'm not saying the way I handled it is objectively better, but it definitely worked for us. He's four years old now and I can honestly say I wouldn't have done much differently, looking back.

 

As to the original question, the full blown "adolescent" stage typically comes to an end somewhere between two and three years of age. That's a ballpark estimate, of course, but usually by three years old, they are more adult than "teen" in their day to day actions and choices. Some are more mature by the time they are two, but I've found that I really see the brain "kick in" around and just after the dog turns three.

 

I enjoy your responses and find them most helpful....and I do think that my view is colored by my experience with Scotty. He really needed some firm corrections for his unwanted behavior. I was thinking while watching Robin tonight how just plain gleeful he is no matter what he is doing and I don't want him to lose that by me worrying that he's trying to take over the house. He won't ever be able to do it anyway, from a doggie standpoint, Ladybug is in charge and they all know I am "she who must be obeyed. Mr. Squeaky Toy should be worried :D but then he's happy with them mauling him all the time, so who am I to say its wrong? We'll just take it day by day....

 

Now we can all move on to respond to the young female dog who is biting guests....:D.

 

P.S. (this should be in the clicker thread ) ....we've just been playing "lie down" with the clicker and its working....he's connecting the click to the treat to the signal...it's taking him awhile to respond but I only repeat the command very softly with the signal twice, exchanging hands now and again. We played for about five minutes or eight treats worth anyway then he started moving further and further away each time -- it seemed he'd had enough but still knew he had to obey so I let him off with a little catch the treat and then, and then played tug of war with poor bunny who has definitely seen better days. He loves tug of war -- ...some people won't play tug of war with their dogs, thinking it leads to aggression, but he "drops it" very nicely as he did tonight. I never push him over on his back but we've been working on "tummy rub" - I say the word and scratch his tummy whether he's sitting or standing and and tonight he flopped over on his back all on his own for a tummy rub. Gotta love those unexpected moments!

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Liz,

I hope you're planning to neuter both dogs. Unfortunately, there will be a hierarchy, and Robin is making clear to Brodie that he's top dog (of the two of them). Less testosterone would probably be helpful in their future interactions. Littermates are often more problematic because they've had the opportunity to compete with one another from day one. I have littermates here (opposite genders) and they regularly get into scraps, especially when something exciting is going on. I don't think you're ever really going to be able to control that unless you keep them separated all the time. I can stop mine with a "Hey!" but it's still somewhat of a pain that they get into it. At least in my case, I know neither is really seeking dominance per se, since they are not the top dogs in this household. And when the day comes that one does have the opportunity to be top dog, it will likely be the female. But opposite-gender interactions I think are less problematic than same-gender ones when it comes to dominance issues.

 

While I don't tolerate a dog snapping at me (in answer to Mary's question), I also have a fear aggressive dog who *will* escalate if corrected with any sort of physical contact. I have been bitten by him, and believe me I decided that when it comes down to it, I need to "work smarter." I'm not above giving a dog a rap across the nose for inappropriate behavior, BUT at the same time, as suggested by Pammyd, I also make sure that there's not a valid reason for the growl (and my dogs all learn verbal corrections from day one, so I would start a correction verbally before escalating to more physical methods). For example, I have an older dog who is on her second recurrence of a mast cell tumor. She can no longer jump up in my van, so I have to lift her. If I inadvertently lift her in a way that puts pressure on her abdomen, she growls at me. I wouldn't dream of correcting her for that, because I suspect that the tumor has metastasized and by lifting her in that way I am causing her pain.

 

I realize you think you're dealing with plain adolescent brattiness, BUT in the case of Robin's aggression toward Brodie, I don't think punishment will necessarily work. As others have pointed out, you might simply turn him into a dog who does a stealth attack on his brother rather than giving you some warning. In this case, I think it's entirely possible that it's an issue you will have to manage their entire lives. You can't make two dogs like each other, even with a gazillion treats. And as people always warn, the problem is often bigger when the two dogs are littermates. And if your husband doesn't also manage them similarly, then whenever you're not around, he's essentially undoing any training you've done.

 

I tend to agree with Kristine on this subject.

 

J.

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