Clicker Training

[ejano]

Hi all,

I've been looking through the pages and pages of clicker clips dating back to 2006 and wondered if there was enough interest to generate a clicker subthread discussion the training method with successes, failures, general questions, etc.

 

I've gotten the clicker out again with Robin to teach the "Watch me" command (he won't be herding sheep, so this is okay) as he continually turns his head when I ask him to lie down, reasoning that if he can't see me, he doesn't have to obey me. He's understood the clicker since he was a pup -- we used it to teach recall. But the other night he outdid himself -- ONce he understood that I clicked and treated when he looked at me, he got bored with that game and decided to go directly to the source -- he went up to my open hand where the clicker was in plain sight and tried to push the clicker with his nose to get the treat! I think he's a step ahead of me in reasoning.

 

Liz

[desertranger]

Dogs are great at predicting what you're going to do. e.g the act of getting dressed in the morning means we are going out. I'm just putting clothes on. No leashes I'm not walking to the door or anything but they still predict we are going out now based on my getting dressed. Jin also tries to predict the direction I'm going to throw the ball based I would assume on my body language. I've had to teach myself to maintain a neutral attitude before I send the ball so that I'm not indicating which direction it's going. You're picking up a clicker is just another predictor for Robin. She sees it and is predicting you're going to click and I'm going to get fed.

 

That's one of the arguments against operant conditioning something that I'm still undecided about. DW is against it completely favoring the traditional methods of training. Yet is seems everything I read says this is the way to go if your not working sheep. Only I find having to carry something else (the clicker) is not something I favor especially since I'm always losing stuff. It's a miracle I've been able to hang on to my sheepdog whistle.

[JohnLloydJones]

Dogs are great at predicting what you're going to do. e.g the act of getting dressed in the morning means we are going out. I'm just putting clothes on.

 

Err, yes, very much so. Senneca and Rhys know perfectly well when I am going out and don't even need me to tell them if they will be coming with me or no. Part is routine, but there is a large portion of reading subtle body language.

 

For some reason clickers have never "clicked" for me -- maybe I'm just doing it all wrong. Maybe Senneca (and now Rhys) don't need a clicker, they just know from my body language when they did right. Clickers are pretty useless at a distance anyway, but I see all sorts of cute things people train with clickers, so they are certainly useful for some people.

[Maralynn]

Dogs are great at predicting what you're going to do. e.g the act of getting dressed in the morning means we are going out. I'm just putting clothes on. No leashes I'm not walking to the door or anything but they still predict we are going out now based on my getting dressed. Jin also tries to predict the direction I'm going to throw the ball based I would assume on my body language. I've had to teach myself to maintain a neutral attitude before I send the ball so that I'm not indicating which direction it's going. You're picking up a clicker is just another predictor for Robin. She sees it and is predicting you're going to click and I'm going to get fed.

 

That's one of the arguments against operant conditioning something that I'm still undecided about. DW is against it completely favoring the traditional methods of training. Yet is seems everything I read says this is the way to go if your not working sheep. Only I find having to carry something else (the clicker) is not something I favor especially since I'm always losing stuff. It's a miracle I've been able to hang on to my sheepdog whistle.

 

I could never see the point of a clicker when I just had Missy. I didn't need it to work with her. But with Kipp, wow clicker training is amazing. 15 minutes, a handful of kibble and he's got a new trick down solid. The clicker clearly marks the exact behavior I want and makes it incredibly easy to shape behaviors. Within 15 minutes we had gone through the whole shaping process for "play dead", added a verbal command and faded the clicker out.

 

Kenzi is highly food motivated, too and I pretty sure she's going to take to clicker work like a duck to water.

 

I think the fact that you're able to communicate *exactly* what you want to your dog with the clicker gives it the big edge for shaping behaviors, especially unnatural ones.

 

As far as the clicker becoming a predictor, yes it is in a way. But it becomes a predictor that it's training time. And since training time is highly rewarding you soon get your dogs undivided attention and they're super excited about it. To me that's a win/win situation - you the teacher have an eager pupil who is ready to learn and figure what you want today and your dog is having a blast. You've created a atmosphere that is perfect for teaching your dog new skills.

 

Working sheep is a very natural behavior based on instinct for a Border Collie. Trying to use a clicker would be counter-productive and distracting. But just because you don't use the clicker with stockwork doesn't mean you can't use it to train other behaviors.

[ejano]

Dogs are great at predicting what you're going to do. e.g the act of getting dressed in the morning means we are going out. I'm just putting clothes on. No leashes I'm not walking to the door or anything but they still predict we are going out now based on my getting dressed. Jin also tries to predict the direction I'm going to throw the ball based I would assume on my body language. I've had to teach myself to maintain a neutral attitude before I send the ball so that I'm not indicating which direction it's going. You're picking up a clicker is just another predictor for Robin. She sees it and is predicting you're going to click and I'm going to get fed.

 

That's one of the arguments against operant conditioning something that I'm still undecided about. DW is against it completely favoring the traditional methods of training. Yet is seems everything I read says this is the way to go if your not working sheep. Only I find having to carry something else (the clicker) is not something I favor especially since I'm always losing stuff. It's a miracle I've been able to hang on to my sheepdog whistle.

 

Ladybug predicts her chances of leaving the house with me based on whether or not I put on make-up and which shoes I put on. Lipstick and dress shoes mean that she stays home and she immediately starts to mope even before I've left the bedroom. If you really want to test reactive time, take a basket ball and bounce it from hand to hand. My son had all three dogs shifting the other day. Here they are all lined up, waiting for Ken to toss the ball. Ladybug and Brodie both have their eye on the ball.

 

The clicker is just a training aid and the goal is to obtain the behavior without clickers or treats but with body language - a gesture, or a word command which you teach using the clicker. From what I understand, you would not taking away the dog's ability to read your body language, but in fact enhancing it. It seems to be working with Robin; Brodie is less cued into it because I still haven't made up my mind about sheep with him. So for now, with him we trudge along with traditional methods.

 

Liz

[ejano]

But with Kipp, wow clicker training is amazing. 15 minutes, a handful of kibble and he's got a new trick down solid. The clicker clearly marks the exact behavior I want and makes it incredibly easy to shape behaviors. Within 15 minutes we had gone through the whole shaping process for "play dead", added a verbal command and faded the clicker out.

 

Kenzi is highly food motivated, too and I pretty sure she's going to take to clicker work like a duck to water.

 

I think the fact that you're able to communicate *exactly* what you want to your dog with the clicker gives it the big edge for shaping behaviors, especially unnatural ones.

 

My plan for Robin is to have him be of some service to me should I get sick again. I had been training Scotty with a backpack (he loved to run deliveries between my house and my mother in law who lives on the other side of the back lawn) and had been starting to work with him on picking different things up and handing them to me. I think Robin could go much further. Robin might as well carry a "Will work for food" around his neck. Come to think of it, Scotty and was also highly food motivated. I didn't realize for some time that he had been clicker trained then one day, I happen to snap my fingers when I asked him to heel and he fell right back in line with me. From then on, it was very easy to call him back to me with just a snap of my fingers. On the other hand, Brodie best for works for praise and hugs.

 

Liz

[Laurae]

The clicker is just a training aid and the goal is to obtain the behavior without clickers or treats but with body language - a gesture, or a word command which you teach using the clicker. From what I understand, you would not taking away the dog's ability to read your body language, but in fact enhancing it. It seems to be working with Robin; Brodie is less cued into it because I still haven't made up my mind about sheep with him. So for now, with him we trudge along with traditional methods.

 

Liz

 

I wouldn't necessarily teach a watch me with a clicker to a dog who is going to work stock, but I used a clicker with Taz when he was a puppy to teach basic manners and it didn't diminish his ability to work stock. (He's not a competitive open dog, but that's because of my inexperienced handling. In the hands of Scott Glen, with whom he spent last winter, Taz is quite impressive.)

[Maralynn]

Brodie is less cued into it because I still haven't made up my mind about sheep with him. So for now, with him we trudge along with traditional methods.

 

Not sure I'm understanding this right, but are you avoiding using a clicker with him because you may want to work sheep with him eventually? If this is the case, I'd go ahead and start using a clicker with with him. It will probably up his enthusiasm for training and it should not interfere with stock work at all if you eventually decide to give it a try.

[ejano]

Not sure I'm understanding this right, but are you avoiding using a clicker with him because you may want to work sheep with him eventually? If this is the case, I'd go ahead and start using a clicker with with him. It will probably up his enthusiasm for training and it should not interfere with stock work at all if you eventually decide to give it a try.

 

Yes, that's right. He 's going through his basic obedience and doing quite well without the clicker because he just likes to please people and is very eager for praise. A hug and a pat is worth a ten cookies for Brodie. Robin has a, shall we say, a more independent spirit and seems to have entered a difficult phase no doubt connected to the fact that he has now learned to pee on a post! That dog is going to a challenge but at least he learns quickly. With any luck he'll realize that I am top dog very soon and we can get down to some real work.

 

Liz

[pammyd]

i love clickrr but its just a tool like any other

both my pair understand clicker, they know we are learninf tricks when the clicker is out and it helps them get complex behaviours quicker but they also work without the clicker, i dont use it in agility at all and i hardly take it outside the house, they can learn without it being there, they can learn without food, balls, whatever, these things are all things to help but the dogs brain dosent switch off without them being there

 

i was new to clicker with ben and didnt understand free shaping so he wouldnt offer anything but just wait to see what i wanted him to do

i have spent a while working hard getting him to interact with objects in a free time situation. i think he has got it a bit too well

i wanted to teach some relaxed eyes the other day so i sat infront of him with the clicker

straight away he started looking round him, then crying a bit, then he raced off to the bin, grabbed an empty bottle, dumped it in the middle of the room and happily started offering behaviours to the bottle

was so cute, but i guess we have some work to do with his understanding of what i am looking for with the clicker

 

but the only limitation to training this way is your imagination

[Root Beer]

he continually turns his head when I ask him to lie down, reasoning that if he can't see me, he doesn't have to obey me.

 

I just wanted to jump in to point out that, while that is one possibility, he might also be turning his head because he feels pressure from you when you cue the down. I'm not saying that you are trying to pressure him, but sometimes, especially when starting training, the dog can feel pressure when cues are being introduced. He may be turning his head as a calming signal to appease you.

 

If that's the case, then trying to use the clicker to get sustained eye contact could backfire.

 

I'd recommend trying more of a doggie zen kind of game to get eye contact at first. I did this with Dean at first and it really opened a fantastic line of communication between us that I am really starting to reap the fruits of now.

 

He's understood the clicker since he was a pup -- we used it to teach recall. But the other night he outdid himself -- ONce he understood that I clicked and treated when he looked at me, he got bored with that game and decided to go directly to the source -- he went up to my open hand where the clicker was in plain sight and tried to push the clicker with his nose to get the treat! I think he's a step ahead of me in reasoning.

 

I consider it a good thing when my dogs try things like this. One of the main "perks" of clicker training is that it actually encourages the dog to try different things. That was a smart try.

 

Getting clicked over and over just for looking at you probably does get boring. Why not mix it up with looking at something else, then looking at you. Or touch a target, look at you. Or drop a toy, look at you. Or sit, down, look at you. Etc.

 

One of the most fun things about working with the clicker is that both you and the dog get to try new things. Sometimes they work and sometimes they work, but not like you intended. And sometimes they backfire, but that's fine because it's never "wrong" and you can always change your game plan.

[Root Beer]

You're picking up a clicker is just another predictor for Robin. She sees it and is predicting you're going to click and I'm going to get fed.

 

After years of working with the clicker, my dogs see the clicker and they know they are going to be trained or we are going to play together in some way. They know that they get very few "free" clicks and treats. The presence of the clicker means that a new move or exercise is going to be introduced. Or we are going to sharpen up something that they already know. Or we are going to play a shaping game.

 

The presence of the clicker puts my dogs into "training mode". That's not to say they won't be in "training mode" without the clicker. I don't use it every single time we train. But it is a clear predictor to them, when I have it, that we are going to do some work together.

 

Yes, treats are part of that, but so is learning, responding to cues, putting things that they have learned together, and mental work on their part. Sometimes it means music and dancing. Sometimes it means Agility. Sometimes it means heelwork. Sometimes it means something that probably seems quite random to them.

 

I guess it's not an arrangement that would suit everyone, but I love the attitude that my dogs take on when I have a clicker out.

[ejano]

I just wanted to jump in to point out that, while that is one possibility, he might also be turning his head because he feels pressure from you when you cue the down. I'm not saying that you are trying to pressure him, but sometimes, especially when starting training, the dog can feel pressure when cues are being introduced. He may be turning his head as a calming signal to appease you.

 

If that's the case, then trying to use the clicker to get sustained eye contact could backfire.

 

I'd recommend trying more of a doggie zen kind of game to get eye contact at first. I did this with Dean at first and it really opened a fantastic line of communication between us that I am really starting to reap the fruits of now.

I consider it a good thing when my dogs try things like this. One of the main "perks" of clicker training is that it actually encourages the dog to try different things. That was a smart try.

 

Getting clicked over and over just for looking at you probably does get boring. Why not mix it up with looking at something else, then looking at you. Or touch a target, look at you. Or drop a toy, look at you. Or sit, down, look at you. Etc.

 

One of the most fun things about working with the clicker is that both you and the dog get to try new things. Sometimes they work and sometimes they work, but not like you intended. And sometimes they backfire, but that's fine because it's never "wrong" and you can always change your game plan.

 

KRistine, that's a good point about appeasement...it's just that when I have a treat, he cheerfully looks at me then hits the deck so quickly I can't even get the words out...but when there's no treat, he's not about to do anything. Perhaps he just prefers to sit....some dog like to sit, some dogs like to lie down. I have a hard time keeping Brodie at a sit -- he's always flopping down, treat or not.

 

I only ask him for brief eye contact, just enough so that I know he's paying attention...I agree that staredowns are not good at all. Today I added the "Watch me" request. We'll try mixing it up -- look at a target, look at me....I'm not sure how to get him to touch a target....gotta read the next chapter! .

 

He wants to understand-- he's very into it by the way he cocks his head and it seems those gold eyebrows go up in a quizzical way. If I say "See it" and he says "Yes!" by looking at the target then looking at me, then the next natural progression would seem to be "get it", which would be really helpful ...is that right?

 

 

Liz

[Root Beer]

KRistine, that's a good point about appeasement...it's just that when I have a treat, he cheerfully looks at me then hits the deck so quickly I can't even get the words out...but when there's no treat, he's not about to do anything. Perhaps he just prefers to sit....some dog like to sit, some dogs like to lie down. I have a hard time keeping Brodie at a sit -- he's always flopping down, treat or not.

 

So, the down is a strong default that he tends to offer when he knows that you have food, but he's not fluent enough in the behavior to offer it on cue whether food is present or not.

 

From a clicker training perspective I would say that the association between the down cue and the behavior needs to become stronger, and this usually happens best through repetition and time. You can also change up rewards, but honestly, I haven't found that as effective as it's cracked up to be.

 

One thing that I do with my dogs to help solidify correct cued responses is to select three or four behaviors (maybe sit, down, stand, and spin). At first I cue them randomly and I use a 1:1 click/treat to response ratio. In the beginning I do help the dog with lures, if need be. So I might cue - sit (click/treat), down (click/treat), sit (click/treat), stand (click/treat), spin (click/treat), down (click/treat), sit (click/treat), end.

 

Once the dog is really solid, I move to a variable reinforcement schedule. So, maybe - sit (no click/treat), down (click/treat), sit (click/treat), stand (click/treat), spin (no click/treat), down (click/treat), sit (click/treat). Note, at first I put an unrewarded behavior in only once every so often. BTW, I would mix up the order of behaviors from session to session. I'm just using the same order here to keep things simple.

 

Eventually I might only click/treat two or three times in that sequence. I would also mix in other behaviors during other sessions, although I would try to use behaviors with which the dog has the same level of fluency in a grouping. So, if the dog barely knows a "sit pretty", I won't use that in this game until he knows it as well as a sit or down, etc.

 

After doing something like this for a while, I would expect to start to find that the dog will respond much better whether food is present or not because the association between the cue and the fact that the action is rewarding will be much, much greater.

 

There are other approaches that can be taken, but this is one that I find very enjoyable, and my dogs seem to like it, as well. It keeps things interesting.

 

He wants to understand-- he's very into it by the way he cocks his head and it seems those gold eyebrows go up in a quizzical way. If I say "See it" and he says "Yes!" by looking at the target then looking at me, then the next natural progression would seem to be "get it", which would be really helpful ...is that right?

 

Do you want to teach him to look at the target or touch it? If touch it - with nose or paws? I'll admit I use shortcuts to teach targeting. I used to do the whole shaping by successive approximation process, but these days I want to get to other things much faster, so I shortcut both my foot targets and nose targets. It will probably differ from the book, but I can tell you what I do, if you want to know.

 

For "see it", I use a shortcut, too.

[flyer]

Err, yes, very much so. Senneca and Rhys know perfectly well when I am going out and don't even need me to tell them if they will be coming with me or no. Part is routine, but there is a large portion of reading subtle body language.

 

For some reason clickers have never "clicked" for me -- maybe I'm just doing it all wrong. Maybe Senneca (and now Rhys) don't need a clicker, they just know from my body language when they did right. Clickers are pretty useless at a distance anyway, but I see all sorts of cute things people train with clickers, so they are certainly useful for some people.

 

You know before I ever picked up a clicker which was only about 6 weeks ago I thought the same thing. Good for cute tricks. My dog already had very good manners, basic things like sit, stay, come were all in very good shape and he had a lot of tricks due to my 15 yr. old daughter. He was, however, having a problem with strangers approaching on our walks and the problem was getting bigger as he was aging. Because of this board and the anxious dog threads I bought Control Unleashed and Pryor's books and went to work to help my person anxious dog. The success I have had by working thru the CU exercises and counter conditioning on our walks has been extraordinary to me. It has been days now since any anxious barking. In fact when my pup sees people now he looks happy because he knows something good is about to happen and that can be as simple as coming to me for a big scritch and praise. He stays relaxed. No more alerted tail, tense body, worried eye and barking. And this has bled into greeting other dogs. We see a dog in the distance I can down him even if he is thirty feet ahead of me. I get to him, ask the owner of the dog if he can greet and the I release Colt with a "visit" which he jumps up to do.

 

I would really appreciate an ongoing clicker thread. I had a so many doubts as I worked through this issue and very few people responded to my questions. I was very grateful for the people who did post as it really helped me stay with it.

 

My relationship with my dog has deepened considerably since we started this work and it was pretty darn good before hand.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I will second what Kristine said about your body language and him turning his face away from you. It could even be the slightest of pressure too, you may not even realize you are doing it.

When I was taking a recall class with Daisy (we were taking it for socialization and her motion sensitivity issues and she already had a solid recall) I was having difficulties getting her to come right in to me. I couldn't figure it out because she did have an excellent recall. So, my trainer watched me and she pointed out that I was slightly leaning in towards her when she came in and that was likely the issue. That was the problem and I was only leaning in by an inch or so, hardly anything at all to me, but a world of difference to her in a high stress (for her) environment.

 

BTW, I would mix up the order of behaviors from session to session. I'm just using the same order here to keep things simple.

My brother's girlfriend has a cocker-pug (read, not very smart dog) and she taught Lola sit, down and roll over. While she was training these behaviors, she inadvertently trained it as a behavior chain because she kept doing it in the same order. Now Lola can not lie down without sitting first or roll over without doing a sit and a down first. So watch that one!

[ejano]

So, the down is a strong default that he tends to offer when he knows that you have food, but he's not fluent enough in the behavior to offer it on cue whether food is present or not.

 

From a clicker training perspective I would say that the association between the down cue and the behavior needs to become stronger, and this usually happens best through repetition and time. You can also change up rewards, but honestly, I haven't found that as effective as it's cracked up to be.

 

One thing that I do with my dogs to help solidify correct cued responses is to select three or four behaviors (maybe sit, down, stand, and spin). At first I cue them randomly and I use a 1:1 click/treat to response ratio. In the beginning I do help the dog with lures, if need be. So I might cue - sit (click/treat), down (click/treat), sit (click/treat), stand (click/treat), spin (click/treat), down (click/treat), sit (click/treat), end.

 

Once the dog is really solid, I move to a variable reinforcement schedule. So, maybe - sit (no click/treat), down (click/treat), sit (click/treat), stand (click/treat), spin (no click/treat), down (click/treat), sit (click/treat). Note, at first I put an unrewarded behavior in only once every so often. BTW, I would mix up the order of behaviors from session to session. I'm just using the same order here to keep things simple.

 

Eventually I might only click/treat two or three times in that sequence. I would also mix in other behaviors during other sessions, although I would try to use behaviors with which the dog has the same level of fluency in a grouping. So, if the dog barely knows a "sit pretty", I won't use that in this game until he knows it as well as a sit or down, etc.

 

After doing something like this for a while, I would expect to start to find that the dog will respond much better whether food is present or not because the association between the cue and the fact that the action is rewarding will be much, much greater.

 

There are other approaches that can be taken, but this is one that I find very enjoyable, and my dogs seem to like it, as well. It keeps things interesting.

Do you want to teach him to look at the target or touch it? If touch it - with nose or paws? I'll admit I use shortcuts to teach targeting. I used to do the whole shaping by successive approximation process, but these days I want to get to other things much faster, so I shortcut both my foot targets and nose targets. It will probably differ from the book, but I can tell you what I do, if you want to know.

 

For "see it", I use a shortcut, too.

 

Yes, I'd love to know some more of your methods. I'm seeing that the down wasn't reinforced enough to begin with? In thinking back, I don't think I ever added a cue - I just held up the treat and said "down" and flat he goes...same with the ball. He seems me holding the ball and knows I'll kick it (we play with a soccer ball) if he goes down. We'll begin anew today with a hand signal...no voice command, just a hand signal. If he does it, click and treat...is that right?

 

Also, why toss the treat away so the dog has to get up and get it instead of just giving it to them? Is it so they will come back and repeat the behavior?

 

Liz

[ejano]

My brother's girlfriend has a cocker-pug (read, not very smart dog) and she taught Lola sit, down and roll over. While she was training these behaviors, she inadvertently trained it as a behavior chain because she kept doing it in the same order. Now Lola can not lie down without sitting first or roll over without doing a sit and a down first. So watch that one!

 

My sweet Willie was a terrier mix and not overly bright. He'd learn the tricks, but couldn't retain the cue words and would keep going through his bag of tricks until he got to the right one for the reward. He was a good pup, the only non BC I've ever had. He just loved people. He did learn to wipe his paws before coming in the house those, something these guys should really learn.

 

Liz

[Root Beer]

Yes, I'd love to know some more of your methods. I'm seeing that the down wasn't reinforced enough to begin with? In thinking back, I don't think I ever added a cue - I just held up the treat and said "down" and flat he goes...same with the ball. He seems me holding the ball and knows I'll kick it (we play with a soccer ball) if he goes down. We'll begin anew today with a hand signal...no voice command, just a hand signal. If he does it, click and treat...is that right?

 

Correct. It's a common mistake that I make, even after . . . let's see . . . about six years of using a clicker! Since you held up the treat and said "down", he learned that the cue for "down" was a treat held in the air.

 

This is easy to transition. You can hold a treat in the air and say "down", click and treat the down. Then fake that you are holding a treat in your hand as you hold it up, say down, click and treat from your other hand (which I would recommend holding behind you as you cue with the other hand. Then go back and hold a treat in your hand, hold it up, say "down" click/treat. Fake the treat, etc. This will start to show him that it is the hand signal that cues the down, not the treat itself.

 

After doing this for a few days, try holding your hand up with an open palm and cue the down, again click and treat from the hand behind you. Mix it up then between holding up the treat, fake treat in hand, open palm.

 

After doing this for a while, you will have a good, solid down on that hand signal. Then you can start to mix it up between the signal and a "fading" signal (hand up, but less so). Eventually, you can mix between verbal only and hand signal.

 

In the end you should have a down on either the verbal only, the hand signal only, or both together.

 

If you plan to do any kind of Rally or obedience, don't forget to practice this in heel, as well as in front of you. Even though I don't really use downs in Freestyle, I practice all exercises with my dog in front, left side heel, and right side heel. This creates a nice, solid understanding of the exercise.

 

As far as using hand signal only and then introducing verbal later, it's an option. But since he already has a start on the behavior, I would probably start now (using classical conditioning) pairing the verbal and hand signal together. That's what I described above.

 

Also, why toss the treat away so the dog has to get up and get it instead of just giving it to them? Is it so they will come back and repeat the behavior?

 

Yes, that's the reason I would use to toss a treat. I might also release and lure the dog up with a treat. I would likely mix it up - sometimes toss, sometimes lure, sometimes cue a sit and then release. Down can be tricky because once the dog realizes it's rewarding to offer a down, they sometimes get "stuck" there . . . waiting! That's usually when I start to toss food. An added benefit of that is that the little "chase" of the food is an additional reward for the dog. I use this more to reinforce a stay.

[Carlasl]

I do it very similiar to Kristine, except to create variability I always click a good behavior to mark it as correct but I don't always treat every time once the dog has the behavior down. Also, sometimes they get one treat, sometimes they get a ton of treats, sometimes they get a really good treat. I also chain behaviors quickly once they know them, and ask for them in different orders etc. Training Border collies reminds me of when I used to condition Chimpanzee's at the zoo. You always had to be offering them behaviors and keeping one step ahead of them or they would just start offering you behaviors.

[ejano]

Correct. It's a common mistake that I make, even after . . . let's see . . . about six years of using a clicker! Since you held up the treat and said "down", he learned that the cue for "down" was a treat held in the air.

 

This is easy to transition. You can hold a treat in the air and say "down", click and treat the down. Then fake that you are holding a treat in your hand as you hold it up, say down, click and treat from your other hand (which I would recommend holding behind you as you cue with the other hand. Then go back and hold a treat in your hand, hold it up, say "down" click/treat. Fake the treat, etc. This will start to show him that it is the hand signal that cues the down, not the treat itself.

 

After doing this for a few days, try holding your hand up with an open palm and cue the down, again click and treat from the hand behind you. Mix it up then between holding up the treat, fake treat in hand, open palm.

 

After doing this for a while, you will have a good, solid down on that hand signal. Then you can start to mix it up between the signal and a "fading" signal (hand up, but less so). Eventually, you can mix between verbal only and hand signal.

 

In the end you should have a down on either the verbal only, the hand signal only, or both together.

 

If you plan to do any kind of Rally or obedience, don't forget to practice this in heel, as well as in front of you. Even though I don't really use downs in Freestyle, I practice all exercises with my dog in front, left side heel, and right side heel. This creates a nice, solid understanding of the exercise.

 

As far as using hand signal only and then introducing verbal later, it's an option. But since he already has a start on the behavior, I would probably start now (using classical conditioning) pairing the verbal and hand signal together. That's what I described above.

Yes, that's the reason I would use to toss a treat. I might also release and lure the dog up with a treat. I would likely mix it up - sometimes toss, sometimes lure, sometimes cue a sit and then release. Down can be tricky because once the dog realizes it's rewarding to offer a down, they sometimes get "stuck" there . . . waiting! That's usually when I start to toss food. An added benefit of that is that the little "chase" of the food is an additional reward for the dog. I use this more to reinforce a stay.

 

 

I'm printing out all of your lessons and feel more confident already! I've also found a Karen Pryor certified clicker trainer in the area....does that mean that there's a good chance she knows what she's doing? She does agility with her dogs for the most part and works with a large BC rescue group, helping to train the rescues..

 

Liz

[Root Beer]

I'm printing out all of your lessons and feel more confident already! I've also found a Karen Pryor certified clicker trainer in the area....does that mean that there's a good chance she knows what she's doing? She does agility with her dogs for the most part and works with a large BC rescue group, helping to train the rescues..

 

Liz

 

Yes, those Karen Pryor folks know their clicker training. I'd expect that you'll learn a ton in just a few sessions.

[Root Beer]

You always had to be offering them behaviors and keeping one step ahead of them or they would just start offering you behaviors.

 

Unless you have a Dean Dog!! If I don't give him a few seconds to mentally process what he has done, he gets pretty ticked off.

 

Speedy has always been the way that you describe - I needed to stay one step ahead of him. But if I try to work with Dean at that pace, he lets me know I'm moving too fast!

 

This does remind me of one thing I've been thinking throughout this thread.

 

Once you get to the point where the dog is offering behaviors willy nilly, it is extremely important to use an extinction process to get the fluent behaviors on cue. This is something that I kind of missed for a long time, and a lot of what Speedy knew was not really under stimulus control.

 

I hesitate to bring this up now because it comes later, but I will!

 

Say the dog is consistently offering a chain of behaviors. Say a sit, raise a paw and wave, stand, spin, and then the dog lies down.

 

Well, of course in the end you don't want a chain like that (unless you do, but that's usually much more advanced) off of one cue, so you have to use extinction to put the learned behaviors under stimulus control.

 

So, say I wanted to separate out the down. And let's say we've been working on these things for quite some time and the dog is very fluent with offering the behaviors. I'll set up a training session where I cue the behavior that I want - maybe the down. If the dog offers anything else, or if the dog lays down before the cue is given, I don't click and treat. (There is no non-reward marker here, no gasp of dismay, no correction, etc.) When you first start this, the dog will likely be confused and it is very important to keep his head in the game. This can be frustrating for some dogs, although others enjoy it greatly because it's a new mental challenge. What the dog is learning is a higher understanding of the fact that to earn the click/treat, there is a specific requirement.

 

Now, if the dog offered other behaviors or gave the down before the cue and I withheld the click/treat the first time, I'm going to help the dog to be correct the second time. If the dog was correct, click, jackpot, and repeat!

 

If the dog was unsuccessful, I might cue the down and offer a lure or exaggerated hand signal to bypass the other behaviors in the chain and then click and jackpot that. Or, I might work the exercise on a mat where the dog is more likely to lie down right away. Or, I might use a lure or exaggerated hand signal to help the dog hold the sit until I say "down" and then click and jackpot the correct response. There are lots of ways to help the dog be successful.

 

After a few days of doing this, the dog should catch on to the idea that he only gets a click and treat for offering the down when the cue is used.

 

The confusing thing about this is that there are still times when you might click and reward the down as a default, but the dogs actually learn to read the situation and they know when a free shaping type activity is going on, and when only cued behaviors are desired. Both you and the dog sort that out over time.

 

This is a step that a lot of people skip, and that's when you run into problems with dogs who will only offer behavior chains or can do things when a clicker is present, but not when it is not. When I started doing this with Speedy, his cued responses "cleaned up" beautifully.

 

Remember, though, this comes later, much much later, when the dog is eagerly offering things.

 

Can you tell I love this topic? LOL!!

[Shetlander]

Really good idea to find an instructor who knows what he/she's doing in clicker training. That is one of the best ways to learn the skill. Are you using any books? I really like Click to Calm by Emma Parsons which is marketed towards aggressive/reactive dogs but works great for lots of behaviors and I think is one of the best clicker primers out there. I also used the Clicker Cookbook (forgetting the author) with Quinn when he was a puppy. It has several useful behaviors to work on. I started clicker training in earnest with the Lhasa and took Helix Fairweather's Cyber Agility course. Even if you don't plan on doing agility, it is extremely useful for learning how to clicker train and it is all very much foundation work. There are weekly chat sessions and also emails for questions and progress reports.

 

I think clicker training is a very effective tool. I use other methods as well, but love how much fun clicker training can be for both dog and human. I use the verbal marker "yes" probably more than an actual clicker, but as soon as my dogs see we are doing a training session (which might last a minute), they are excited, engaged and happily offering behaviors. Well, both Quinn and the Lhasa. Not the Sheltie, though we have fixed a couple of bad habits (extreme nuisance barking in the yard and reactive barking on walks) through positive reinforcement. She was trained for years through traditional methods and has never done well when we've tried shaping. If I ever get another Sheltie puppy, I'll be interested to see how it does with clicker training. My Shelties have been the original "Just tell me what you want and I'll do it" kind of dogs and I don't believe it is solely because of their early training experiences.

[flyer]

SNIP>

Once you get to the point where the dog is offering behaviors willy nilly, it is extremely important to use an extinction process to get the fluent behaviors on cue. This is something that I kind of missed for a long time, and a lot of what Speedy knew was not really under stimulus control.

 

SNIP>

The confusing thing about this is that there are still times when you might click and reward the down as a default, but the dogs actually learn to read the situation and they know when a free shaping type activity is going on, and when only cued behaviors are desired. Both you and the dog sort that out over time.

 

This is a step that a lot of people skip, and that's when you run into problems with dogs who will only offer behavior chains or can do things when a clicker is present, but not when it is not. When I started doing this with Speedy, his cued responses "cleaned up" beautifully.

 

I am so glad you brought this up. I am confused about how to handle something that has been happening for the past few days with Colt. I also have a class scheduled with a Pryor grad starting next week. Colt is not chaining things together, but for the past few days he has been offering down now in his "wait" out on the trails. I use wait when he is getting too far ahead. Down is his default and not a problem I suppose, but it might be when I want that "wait " to stay a stand at ready later in whatever dog sport we take up. He will also heel himself on our walks at times, smiling up at me. Is he offering behaviors to get a treat? Or his he offering behaviors because he likes to please me? It actually feels like the latter. I have been giving him a little pat and a "what a good heel" when he has done this and then carried on with my walk and in very short time he'll go out to a loose leash, but I feel like I might be confusing him because Dog knows I clicked and treated for the past two weeks because we were working on the "heel" and "loose". He understands both and will give both on cue whether I have treats or not now. I have been fading the clicker on our walks.

 

Am I handling this appropriately?