MrRipley Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Ripley and I have taken about 6 lessons so far. I have mostly been handling him the past few times, but I am extremely inexperienced as well. We are still in the round pen, although not always with the same sheep. My trainer says he is doing well and has lots of natural talent. But the problem we are having is that at times, he kind of melts down, checks out, comes off the sheep with his nose to the ground. I guess it's a displacement behavior when he's not sure what to do. Is this normal for a young/inexperienced dog? He really likes to run around the sheep. He's learning and getting more confident with lying down on the opposite side from me (balancing? Sorry if I don't know all the terms yet) -- sometimes if I ask him to lie down and he feel like he missed his spot he'll go back a stride or 2 and lie down . We are having trouble teaching walk-up, he really wants to go around. My trainer thinks he was started on sheep before I got him and most likely corrected too harshly, affecting his confidence. I adopted him from the SPCA in February where he was an unclaimed stray in relatively poor condition. My best guess is that he was probably a farm dog who got away and nobody cared. I think he's about 2 years old now. He's really got a great temperament -- extremely biddable and enthusiastic. He's the kind of dog that needs to know when he's right, and he always wants to be right. He doesn't take correction very well, he's sensitive that way. When he has his "check out" moments, we have been doing 2 things -- get him into a lie down, go get him, and start over (although sometimes he doesn't even listen when he's checked out!), or if I catch him early enough when I see he's going to lose it, I do a little agility move called recall to heel, and then send him back out around the sheep . Is that a bad thing to do? It seems to work. I really like my trainer, she is very positive and seems to understand Rip. She's not a big name or anything, but she has a small sheep farm and she's experienced, and best of all about 15 minutes from my house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Keep at it; Try not to draw too much attention to the sniffing; usually displacement / not understanding the task. Keep the sheep moving when this happens and try to re-engage his focus. The round pen may just be too small for him so he's not feeling that he can walk up on the sheep, prefering to flank. I'm assuming you are working with Judi; see if she can work him in a larger area. Does he still do all the flanking and displacement. When I am helping beginners, one of the biggest problems I see is that the handler isn't moving anywhere so the dog is just flanking around keeping the sheep to the handler or lying down because the dog doesn't think it is really necessary to move as the picture is stationary. There are lots of opportunities for clinics in that area or lessons with some of the bigger hats. Keep at it and have fun. cynthia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 When he has his "check out" moments, we have been doing 2 things -- get him into a lie down, go get him, and start over (although sometimes he doesn't even listen when he's checked out!), or if I catch him early enough when I see he's going to lose it, I do a little agility move called recall to heel, and then send him back out around the sheep . Is that a bad thing to do? It seems to work. I really like my trainer, she is very positive and seems to understand Rip. She's not a big name or anything, but she has a small sheep farm and she's experienced, and best of all about 15 minutes from my house! Not an expert- but what is happening before he "shuts down"? Is it when you are trying to get him to stop or to stay behind the sheep? If he's covering his sheep- maybe he needs to get out of the round pen- although it's easier for beginners to control the situation in there, at the same time it's alot of pressure on the dog. If the dog was not out of control and would at least slow down (i.e not run me over with sheep) when given a verbal correction, I'd get him out of the round pen and into an area where I could walk about and keep things more upbeat and moving forward. As far as your response to him shutting down, I would think downing him would be a little too negative. I prefer to shush the dog onto the sheep, move the sheep myself or otherwise make it clear to the dog that I want them in contact with the sheep. By downing the dog, it seems to me that you are reinforcing that when he is uncertain, he should pull back/stop what he's doing when what you want is an uncertain dog to keep trying. edited to add: By recalling him back and getting more in contact with yourself- I've found that insecure dog or really soft dogs actually feel rewarded/consoled by that contact with you and will offer behaviors where they know you will come to them, making them feel safer. Since we want them to work independently, I think it's better to wean off that reliance on you by encouraging them, even if they are rash/fast or otherwise not perfect, to work the sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRipley Posted October 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Thanks for the fast responses Cynthia, yes we are working with Judi. I think you are correct in saying that I am not moving anywhere . Rip works most confidently and understands his job best when I am walking serpentines around the pen. He'll stop circling and stay behind and remain focused. I forgot to add, several lessons ago, Judi took him into the larger pen. It started ok and then became too much for him and he freaked out with the displacement behavior. She felt that we should get him more comfortable with walking up before we bring him back in there. Maybe if we put the super-easy knee-knockers in the larger pen he could try again in there. Smokjbc, your comments are interesting. What you say makes sense about inadvertently reinforcing the negative behaviors. There isn't necessarily ONE THING that causes him to shut down, it could be asking him to stop, or correcting him for changing direction. I think the best way to describe it, is that he really WANTS to be confident, but he's constantly plagued by his underlying self-doubt. I AM enjoying it though. I think if we ever get it together he could be a nice worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Hello all, This dog has only been to sheep 6 times that you know of. Sounds to me like you may be giving too many commands and not just letting him have his sheep to figure things out on his own. Since he isn't trying to hurt anything or make a mess, I would be just shushing him and keeping things, him and the sheep moving, and I would be doing so in a big area. Things become more interesting for a dog when they have to engage and work a bit to hold sheep to you and there may be too much pressure from you, the sheep or both in the round pen. Or it might just be boring him to tears. I would move things to a big field, keep him and the sheep moving, and give him nothing but a shush, or maybe a flank to begin teaching them. Once he's confident and consistent doing that, I would go to the next level. One thing I would never do with a dog like you describe is lie him down, or recall him to me until we were finished. Cheers all, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I was thinking the same as Amelia. If you can call the dog off sheep, then get out of the round pen and into a bigger area. I've seen a lot of people in round pens issuing constant commands to their dog because things happen so quickly in such a small area when, as I understand it, the whole point of a round pen is to let the dog find ways to control the sheep without the sheep taking off, and to help the dog find the concept of balance. The handler constantly being at the dog just takes the dog's focus off the sheep and onto the handler and introduces a lot of pressure. The dog won't sense the balance point if you are constantly nattering at him. You can do a lot of work with a dog with a very quiet "shush" and a "steady now". Flank commands are unnecessary in such a small space. The dog almost certainly won't be giving you proper flanks anyway, so you are putting words to the wrong behavior, and lying the dog down constantly introduces a lot of pressure especially if the sheep are going by you and off balance. Make opportunities for the dog to work the sheep, not for the handler to work the dog. I'd let the dog work in the round pen a time or two more with little or no commands from the you. Just use changes in body position to change the balance point and let the dog figure out where to be. As soon as the dog reaches balance, back up and let him wear the sheep to you. That will relax him. Lie him down a few times and call him off the sheep, just to get him used to the idea of stopping work. Once he'll do that reliably, get him in a bigger fenced area where there is room to actually start training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 This is a really interesting thread as it has a lot of similarities to how Daisy is on sheep. She too circles a lot in the round pen and is a soft dog. We have had a few more lessons - maybe 10 total. We started with the first 2 or 3 lessons in the round pen. She was doing pretty well so we moved into a medium field. Our first lesson in the medium field was great. Daisy was focused and moved the sheep really well. The next 2 or 3 lessons in the medium field were a disaster. She was working pretty much on prey drive and just wanted to "chase". It was very hard for me to correct her in the bigger area. So for the last 2 lessons we have moved back into the round pen. I can correct her when she does the "zoom and single out one sheep move" much better. The last lesson was actually pretty good - not much "zooming". I am going to a lesson on Saturday, so I am hoping to start in the round pen and then move to the medium field. So thanks for starting the thread and all of the advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 This is a really interesting thread as it has a lot of similarities to how Daisy is on sheep. She too circles a lot in the round pen and is a soft dog. We have had a few more lessons - maybe 10 total. We started with the first 2 or 3 lessons in the round pen. She was doing pretty well so we moved into a medium field. Our first lesson in the medium field was great. Daisy was focused and moved the sheep really well. The next 2 or 3 lessons in the medium field were a disaster. She was working pretty much on prey drive and just wanted to "chase". It was very hard for me to correct her in the bigger area. The question is; why was she chasing? If it was just busting into the sheep, then maybe correction or more work in the round pen is warranted. If it was because the sheep were busting back to the barn and the dog was trying to stop them, even if unsuccessfully (after all she doesn't have those tools yet), then maybe some quieter sheep or somewhere with less draw is what is needed. The odd "disaster" isn't necessarily a bad thing. The dog will learn "Crap! That sure didn't work" and if you can introduce situation that does work, then the dog learns faster, in my limited experience. You don't want a young dog to get continually beaten by wily or obstinate sheep, but sometimes he/she has to work the sheep to find out what works and what doesn't, and sometimes he/she discovers that what they're trying doesn't work. That's a "teacheable moment", just as with people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 The question is; why was she chasing? If it was just busting into the sheep, then maybe correction or more work in the round pen is warranted. If it was because the sheep were busting back to the barn and the dog was trying to stop them, even if unsuccessfully (after all she doesn't have those tools yet), then maybe some quieter sheep or somewhere with less draw is what is needed. I think it may have been a combination of both. I know in two of our lessons that were "disasters", we get relatively undog broke sheep. They were not real "flocky" and more stubborn than what we had at first. I think my trainer got some new sheep for a trial and a couple got mixed in with his regular flock. And I knew that was not her fault. The other part of it was I think that she figured out that she could get away with more in the bigger pen - I couldn't correct her as efficiently. It's a challenge to remember what I am suppose to do and correct her on top of it. Hopefully, we will have a good lesson on Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRipley Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Thanks all for your comments, I am starting to understand better what is going on. I'd let the dog work in the round pen a time or two more with little or no commands from the you. Just use changes in body position to change the balance point and let the dog figure out where to be. As soon as the dog reaches balance, back up and let him wear the sheep to you. That will relax him. Lie him down a few times and call him off the sheep, just to get him used to the idea of stopping work. Once he'll do that reliably, get him in a bigger fenced area where there is room to actually start training. We have done this a couple of times, and he works very well this way! It helps me a lot too because I can feel how he responds to me and the sheep. We will continue this kind of work and see about moving him the the larger field. I'll post an update when I have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Hello all, The next 2 or 3 lessons in the medium field were a disaster. She was working pretty much on prey drive and just wanted to "chase". This is where we get into trouble. We tend to call the dog bad, over-aggressive, chasey, grippy, prey-drivey, whatever, just about the time it's showing interest in doing what it was bred for. In the meduim field, your dog realized its potential and you were overcome by it. Ask yourself; what am i doing to allow this? Answer: you're out of position, your timing is wrong or you are beginning too slow and/or too late to move your feet and unable to teach the dog how to accomplish things properly. The round pen will slow things down for you and allow you to catch up, but it's not likely of any value to the dog. There's nothing wrong with slowing things down, just remember that the round pen is for your benefit, not the dogs'. The best analogy I can think of is the old boxer who makes the boxing ring smaller so he doesn't have to move as fast or as far. Ideally, good timing in a big field would allow you to move into proper position and cause the dog to bend off the pressure of your body at the exact instant it was going from flank to chase. Pretty soon you're left with a dog that's working properly and excited about it. Cheers all, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRipley Posted October 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 An update -- we had a lesson this weekend and it went pretty well. Almost NO displacement sniffing. I think I am getting better about keeping the sheep moving which keeps Rip engaged. We also moved the sheep a bit in the large pen and he didn't lose his brain. Still having trouble teaching him to walk up. He's definitely a gatherer! Has anyone ever used a long line to teach walk up? Pros and cons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 An update -- we had a lesson this weekend and it went pretty well. Almost NO displacement sniffing. I think I am getting better about keeping the sheep moving which keeps Rip engaged. We also moved the sheep a bit in the large pen and he didn't lose his brain. Still having trouble teaching him to walk up. He's definitely a gatherer! Has anyone ever used a long line to teach walk up? Pros and cons? It sounds like you are wanting to teach him to drive, not just walk up. You should be teaching the walk up while you are gathering. When your dog goes around to gather and gets to the point of balance you should be telling him to "walk up" putting the command with the action and backing up letting him bring the sheep to you. Try this before you start trying to get him to drive. That way when you ask him to walk up he'll know what you are talking about. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRipley Posted October 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 It sounds like you are wanting to teach him to drive, not just walk up. You should be teaching the walk up while you are gathering. When your dog goes around to gather and gets to the point of balance you should be telling him to "walk up" putting the command with the action and backing up letting him bring the sheep to you. Try this before you start trying to get him to drive. That way when you ask him to walk up he'll know what you are talking about. Bob Hmm, thanks Bob. I WAS a bit confused with the walk-up/driving, but now I understand the difference I AM trying to teach him to walk up, not drive, but maybe the problem is ME -- maybe I am not moving back fast enough when he reaches the balance point, and he wants to go out and around again. I'm getting the idea that I need to be quicker on my feet to keep him engaged and have him keep the sheep moving towards me. I also need to be more careful to keep the sheep between me and the dog (while asking him to walk up). Sometimes in the time it takes for my brain to tell my body what to do, the sheep have already moved before I have even asked Rip to walk up and he is just trying to get things back in order. At least I think that might be what's happening. We had him on a line for part of the lesson, in and attempt to show him that he CAN stay behind the sheep while they are moving, and to prevent him from gathering. Which now that you say it I understand is actually driving, not walking up. Rip's brain is much faster than my brain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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