What Were They Thinking

[Tuxedodog]

I have been seeing Border Collies in just about every ad for everything, on TV and in print. The kicker is the Walmart ad for dogfood that shows a small child petting the dog while it eats! Now my BC won't eat if I am too close, but our former Golden Retriever would have removed my hand at the wrist, and I have had cats that growled if I got too close during meal time! This must be the product of someone who knows nothing about animals. Had to vent!

[Smokjbc]

I have been seeing Border Collies in just about every ad for everything, on TV and in print. The kicker is the Walmart ad for dogfood that shows a small child petting the dog while it eats! Now my BC won't eat if I am too close, but our former Golden Retriever would have removed my hand at the wrist, and I have had cats that growled if I got too close during meal time! This must be the product of someone who knows nothing about animals. Had to vent!

 

 

Honestly, I expect all of my dogs to allow me to pet them while they eat and pups are taught to wait for food (and to tolerate me taking it away). I don't think it's advisable to encourage a child to pet an eating dog, but if I had a child, I would not keep a dog that would bite a child in that scenario (unless the child was teasing the dog or scaring them). The dogs I had growing up would let us do anything to them- I only got bit once when, in frustration because he wouldn't come to me & I had chased him all over our neighborhood in 100 plus degree heat, I smacked our sheltie on the rear. What I learned from that is that tetanus shots HURT almost as much as dog bites- no one blamed the dog.

[Tranquilis]

I train to the standard that I can stick my hand right into the food bowl whilst my dogs are eating, and grab up a handful of food without any response whatsoever from the dog. I may not be a great trainer, but food guarding against me is one thing I will not accept.

 

I would NOT let my children do that, nor do I make a habit of it, and I most CERTAINLY would not try that with a dog I hadn't tested first! OTOH, I expect my dogs to be very tolerent of my children, and they are. Of course, I train my children, too...

 

 

But, in general, I agree that it does seem a bad idea to give the general public (whom I consider, as a mass, to grossly under-educated about dogs) the idea that this is something that is normally done.

[Root Beer]

My dogs would all allow me to take their food, but I still don't stand around petting them while they eat. I guess it's because I value personal space myself. I don't want them pawing at me while I'm eating (I don't mind them snuggling close, but in a relaxed, passive way), so I'm not going to paw at them while they are eating. To my way of thinking, it's just not good manners.

 

No child in my house would be allowed to pet the dogs while they are eating, even if the dogs are fine with it. I'd consider it my job to teach the child how to conduct his or herself properly around dogs and messing with them while they eat (unless it is necessary or for training being done by adults only) is considered rude in my household.

[Pat W.]

I agree that there are border collies everywhere in advertising and thats not the greatest thing in the world for the breed in general. However it is a requirement in my house as well that I be able to handle the dog, the bowl, the food or any combination of the 3 while the dog is eating with out a growl or any other kind of protest, unless they are being hurt then a protest is quite reasonable

[bc4ever]

Scooter has no issues with food. He's a very relaxed, slow eater. I could remove his bowl while he was eating, with no fear of retaliation on his part. But why? Unless there's something in the bowl I don't want him eating, why do it? Just because I can? I respect his space and he respects mine.

 

Face it, people seem to be drawn to Border Collies, be it in commercials or on a walk in the neighborhood. They attract attention. Great advertising move. Not so great for the breed.

[jamesqf]

I agree with others. I've never had a dog that wouldn't accept petting or food removal while eating, and if one did, I'd consider it a behavioral problem that needs to be corrected. Of course I wouldn't normally do something like that, but occasionally I need to e.g. rescue a dropped piece of chicken with a bone...

 

And of course I don't stick my hand in Niki's dish while she's eating, but that's for much the same reason that I wouldn't stick it in a garbage disposal :-)

[juliepoudrier]

But, in general, I agree that it does seem a bad idea to give the general public (whom I consider, as a mass, to grossly under-educated about dogs) the idea that this is something that is normally done.

I think this is the key point the OP was trying to make. Of course most of us train our dogs to allow stuff like that, but we all know that the general public is likely to see such an ad and *think* that border collies--in fact, dogs in general--are generally okay with you, or worse, a child, messing with them while they eat. They will never make the great logical leap that the dog has been *trained* to allow that and that they don't just pop out of the womb that way.

 

J.

[desertranger]

I taught both dogs and children not to react over the subject of food. When the kids were crawlers and toddlers they would share the water dish with the dogs so it behooved us to teach everyone that food and water dishes were neutral territory. Bith Jin and Abby will let the cats help themselves or let me take the dishes unfinished away.

 

But if the cross to each others bowl... well that's another story.

[Smokjbc]

I don't spend alot of time on this issue, I have found it's really easy- provided you aren't working with a poor temperament, to teach a dog that you are not threatening it's food, but that they must respect you enough to tolerate it being messed with. But no, I don't do this every day, or even every month- but I don't put up with any growling/resource guarding, period. To me, this is a basic "good manners" behavior and while I agree that the general public might not be up to the task, I also think that they should be up to it. I don't believe in advertising protecting the public from their own stupidity.

[JohnLloydJones]

Now my BC won't eat if I am too close, but our former Golden Retriever would have removed my hand at the wrist, and I have had cats that growled if I got too close during meal time!

I don't deliberately mess with my dogs when they're eating, but if necessary, I can take any food item from them, without protest. That includes juicy bones that they sometimes find on our morning walk (tossed from the previous evening's BBQ, no doubt) and even take things out of their mouth, if I am afraid their eating something nasty. We don't do food aggression at our house, and that's the very first house rule new dogs get to learn.

[Tuxedodog]

I can take nummy "treats' that Buster finds away from him, he is not a problem, but not all dogs have been trained. When I met my husband he warned me not to approach the Golden when he was eating, but I wouldn't have anyway. The members of this board seem to have a lot of common sense in their approach to dog ownership which does not seem to be the norm in the general population from what I see people let their dogs do. Maybe the ad needs a footer like the car commercials, professional driver on closed course, do not attempt this on your own. "Dog has been properly trained, do not approach strange animals while they are eating."

[Root Beer]

I can take nummy "treats' that Buster finds away from him, he is not a problem, but not all dogs have been trained.

 

And not all dogs who have been trained to allow it from an adult will, by default, tolerate it in a child.

 

I've never tested this, but if a child approached Speedy while he was eating (he allows me to take food out of his mouth if I need to without any problem) - especially if I were not present to let him know I have his back - I am pretty confident that he would growl and probably bark a nice, clear warning. And I'd deal with the child in that case, not the dog. My other dogs would probably not care in the least, but he has no love for children and that would be a good way for a child to ask to get bit. (Even though he never has bitten anyone and I'm not saying he would).

 

We don't have children and they are never in our house without strict supervision from me (even that is rare), but if I did, they would not be allowed to mess with the dogs while they ate. Period.

 

I haven't seen that commercial, but I agree - it sets a bad example for people who really might not know their dog's tolerance from such behavior from a child. That could be a very sad lesson to learn.

[JohnLloydJones]

And not all dogs who have been trained to allow it from an adult will, by default, tolerate it in a child.

 

I'm not sure that my dogs would allow anyone else to mess with them while eating. When my foster, Rhys bach, was new, he growled at my wife when she stared at him while he was eating. Now I know that despite his attempts to look tough, he's as gentle as a lamb, and he's now on good terms with her (as in has wrapped her round his paw and can do the guilt projection trick on her while she's eating). I almost never feed them when there are strangers around.

[Izzysdad]

There are ads for bc's everywher now, you're right. The vacuum I bought had a picture of a bernese mtn on the box, but I just saw the same vaccum again and the pic is now a bc. I also saw a bc on a box for a thule roof rack system, it was a pic of a family w/ the dog with everything loaded on top. I don't know if I ever would have discovered bc's without some sort of advertising but I know I'm more responsible and smarter than a lot of dog owners. They are very photogenic dogs, it's their nature and the coloring is so unique that each is like snowflake, no two are the same. Look at my to fools

 

I agree it's not great for the breed, but maybe it will help in the resuce area? Lord knows there's enough that need to be rescued. Plus my two have zero herding ability. Tobey wouldn't know what to do with a sheep if one fell on him. And I haven't seen Izzy stalk anything since she was 4 months old.

 

Tim

[KelliePup]

To be honest, I make sure I mess with my dogs' food/bowl/dog plus their toys/chewies/etc., and I guide my nieces and nephew in doing it. I'm looking at therapy work, and there is a good possibility that I will need a service dog down the road since my knee isn't getting any better. I know that not all kids are well behaved around dogs and I don't need my dog snapping at a kid or stupid adult. I don't do it every day, and most of the time I'm just running my hand through the food to deposit some extra special goodies. What's really cool is that I can tell Maverick to "drop it" and he will spit out a chicken leg another family member gave him immediately. Sadly, most ppl don't know what they're doing when they get a pup, or worse, they think they know it all because they grew up with a dog (guilty!)

[RaisingRiver]

I think this is the key point the OP was trying to make. Of course most of us train our dogs to allow stuff like that, but we all know that the general public is likely to see such an ad and *think* that border collies--in fact, dogs in general--are generally okay with you, or worse, a child, messing with them while they eat. They will never make the great logical leap that the dog has been *trained* to allow that and that they don't just pop out of the womb that way.

J.

 

What Jill said. I don't think it should be ADVERTISED that one should pet an eating dog willy nilly, esp a child.

 

Of note, 2/4 of my dogs growled at me, both as 8wk old puppies even, when I first fed them and tried to take up their bowl mid-feeding. It was an issue quickly resolved and of course, easier to solve when they are puppies but even the training of such a task as touching/taking etc of food shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

I also just don't like breeds highlighted in commercials. I think it makes the breed popular/wanted which usually leads to its ruin. Why not just use mutts? Like you need to use a Border Collie eating... Makes more sense to use like a Great Dane - a dog who consumes a LOT of food, not a BC which as a rule, eat very little

[agilityrunningdogs]

So, we're kind of beating a dead horse here - we don't tolerate dogs that resource guard. None of mine growl at me. If it's a new bone, Komet will take it and back away when I reach for it, but he will give it to me if I ask for it.

 

I would like to know the boards thoughts on resource guarding from other dogs. I don't put up with guarding toys, bones, or me. But I've let mealtime slide and now I'm wondering if I should step up and put an end to it. The Schnauzers eat side by side in the kitchen, they eat the same amount of food and finish at the same time and respect each other enough not to bother one another. Mal eats in his crate. He eats fairly slow, so the Schnauzers are done long before him. Komet has gotten the habit of hovering around the crate until Mal is done. When I notice, I call him over to me and redirect his behavior. However, when Komet gets too close, Mal will growl at him. (Note: the crate door is closed). I've let him get away with this, because it's an annoying habit Komet has and I've felt like Mal is correcting him for it. Now that I've read this thread, I can't help but wonder if I should stop Mal's growling. I'm trying to stop Komet's hovering but he slips away sometimes and pesters Mal. I should probably mention that Komet's actions started because when Mal was younger, he would leave a piece or two of kibble behind in his crate and as soon as Mal was let out, Komet would rush in and eat it. Now that Mal's fed raw, there's nothing left and I make sure to close the crate up again as soon as he's out so Komet can't get in and reinforce his own behavior.

 

Any thoughts/ideas?

[Shetlander]

Komet has gotten the habit of hovering around the crate until Mal is done. When I notice, I call him over to me and redirect his behavior. However, when Komet gets too close, Mal will growl at him. (Note: the crate door is closed). I've let him get away with this, because it's an annoying habit Komet has and I've felt like Mal is correcting him for it. Now that I've read this thread, I can't help but wonder if I should stop Mal's growling. I'm trying to stop Komet's hovering but he slips away sometimes and pesters Mal.

 

I'd come up with a way to keep Komet from slipping past you to bother Mal (management) or else consistently enforce that he stay away from the crate (training). You could do it with a down stay, or correcting/redirecting any time he starts toward the crate/stares hard/whatever the start of the hovering is. You could even put Komet in another room or his own crate if you can't make sure he behaves.

 

I'm almost at zero tolerance for resource guarding with my dogs, but I also think they deserve to eat their food in peace. Rather than correcting Mal's growling, I think it's better for everyone to avoid allowing the situation to develop where he feels he needs to defend his right to eat his dinner. I wouldn't want to run the risk that the repeated experiences might lead to a dandy of a serious resource guarding issue.

[urge to herd]

Mal eats in his crate. He eats fairly slow, so the Schnauzers are done long before him. Komet has gotten the habit of hovering around the crate until Mal is done. When I notice, I call him over to me and redirect his behavior. However, when Komet gets too close, Mal will growl at him. (Note: the crate door is closed). I've let him get away with this, because it's an annoying habit Komet has and I've felt like Mal is correcting him for it. Now that I've read this thread, I can't help but wonder if I should stop Mal's growling.

 

Frankly, I'd make sure Komet doesn't hover around Mal ever, at all. If that means crating him or baby gating him outside the room, so be it.

Meal time should be peaceful for everyone.

 

And, what I've discovered through painful and frightening experience, is that little stuff that doesn't seem like such a big deal can escalate in a half a heart beat if a dog isn't feeling well, if there are new stressors (perhaps subtle ones that we poor humans don't catch), or if group dynamics shift.

 

It's such an easy thing to fix, and it's really not Mal's job to police the other dogs. It's your job to ensure that everyone gets to eat calmly and quietly.

 

Ruth

[Tranquilis]

I would like to know the boards thoughts on resource guarding from other dogs. I don't put up with guarding toys, bones, or me. But I've let mealtime slide and now I'm wondering if I should step up and put an end to it.

Suka used to a be a slow, and fairly picky, eater - I'd make sure she had the right amount of food, then let her eat it when she felt like it.

 

When I added Dakota to the household, I needed to change that - Suka and Dakota are both intensely jealous of their food dish with each other, and leaving a bowl full of food all day was just begging for a nasty bitch fight. Also, Dakota was seriously off her feed at first - Grieving dog, new family, new climate, new general environment... Her world was upside down, and her food behaviors were waaaay off center.

 

So, there was a bit of experiementation on the best method, and it basically boils down to 'feed both on a schedule, in their crates (door open), at the same time.' After they're done (which now takes about ten minutes), I take up the bowls, and the dogs can hang out and chill without any pressure.

 

Suka and Dakota are both high-value treat jealous also, and rather than joust with two older dogs, both sharing a fundamental issue, I've simply changed the way *I* behave, and the problem is a moot point now - Neither gets a high value treat without the other one getting an equivalent treat, and both must be in a down, and seperated from the other by at least six feet and by one adult - usually choosing to sit on opposite sides of one of our chairs. This last is kind of funny, beacuse they've clued-in really fast, and when we break out the bones or other treats both dogs'll scramble to take their proper places on either side of which ever one of us is sitting at the moment. Suka has claimed the spot between the chairs, and Dakota must go to the outside of whichever one of us is sitting. If both of us are sitting, Dakota waits to see which of us is handing out the treats before taking her spot.

 

As for training treats, I generally train each dog in isolation from the other anyway.

 

I *could,* I suppose, do something about the food and treat jealousy, but we've got a working solution that doesn't have any negative impact on my dogs, my family, or me, so I figure 'Good Enough.'

[herdcentral]

Yes I do agree it is a very bad idea to advertise with a child touching a dog while eating.

 

But I must say in all the many years my family members and I have between us owned over 20 dogs, I have never had a dog that would bite over its food bowl. Dont really know why, it was just never an issue, I cant recall any specific training.

 

I also find these days when I am out walking my dogs, and children want to run up and touch the majority if parents ask first and restrain their children untill they have established it is safe. My dogs are all very child friendly but I still monitor the situation closely and keep the interactions brief and positive. The parents will also warn the child not to take the dogs ball etc, so people must have some idea out among the general public.

[desertranger]

I saw a pretty BC in a commercial. It was for cotton. Pretty girls in pretty dresses as they pan from on to another there is a shot of a another pretty girl in a very pretty dress with a beautiful merle tri and she walks into a sheep pen.

 

 

 

*heavy accent* Heeyyyy! Pretty girls do you wear your pretty dresses out to work your dogs?

[herdcentral]

Well advertising is about selling a dream and images even if it bares no resemblance to reality.

 

Mind you living in a rural regional centre people are a bit more savvy. They all admire my "pretty BC" - most people say what a beautiful dog she is but no way would they want to own a BC. Their image of a BC is mainly that of a high drive working dog, that would jump out of their backyards and take too long to exercise, which is probably a good thing.

[JohnLloydJones]

Their image of a BC is mainly that of a high drive working dog, that would jump out of their backyards and take too long to exercise, which is probably a good thing.

Yes, I'm quite happy to feed people's misconceptions about that. Not least, because I have one dog (Senneca) who thinks no wall in unjumpable, and one foster who has a history of jumping out of his (tiny) back yard. Oddly enough, neither of them try to jump out of mine.