kelpiegirl Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 This weekend at a trial. I had two polar opposite pen behaviors. My first run, I had slightly jiggered but basically mentally sound sheep (and I do not denigrate the sheep, I mean that my dog did not cause them to go insane), and on the way to the pen (we were wearing) they would not leave my side, even with my arms waving at them. I got to the pen, and one sheep actually had to back up so I could get the door open. In they went for an easy pen. The second day, not so much. Sheep were looking for escape. I had my dog off them, and when I was at the door, and opened it, they did not (how DARE THEY!?) walk toward the pen. They looked left, they looked right, but apparently, there was a black hole at the pen, so they could not see it, but could feel that the area was dangerous... Anyway, they took off left, they took off right. A couple times we got them at the mouth, dog nicely off. Even got my spritely young dog to walk up one step, but no, they just would not pen. When I got hit hard in the leg by one of them as they bolted, we retired (darn that hurt- horns do). What could I have done? Waited longer? I was afraid if I or the dog moved at all they would bust away. What do you do in this instance? When the sheep have wide eyes and worry, and you still have a bit of time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 This weekend at a trial. I had two polar opposite pen behaviors. My first run, I had slightly jiggered but basically mentally sound sheep (and I do not denigrate the sheep, I mean that my dog did not cause them to go insane), and on the way to the pen (we were wearing) they would not leave my side, even with my arms waving at them. I got to the pen, and one sheep actually had to back up so I could get the door open. In they went for an easy pen. The second day, not so much. Sheep were looking for escape. I had my dog off them, and when I was at the door, and opened it, they did not (how DARE THEY!?) walk toward the pen. They looked left, they looked right, but apparently, there was a black hole at the pen, so they could not see it, but could feel that the area was dangerous... Anyway, they took off left, they took off right. A couple times we got them at the mouth, dog nicely off. Even got my spritely young dog to walk up one step, but no, they just would not pen. When I got hit hard in the leg by one of them as they bolted, we retired (darn that hurt- horns do). What could I have done? Waited longer? I was afraid if I or the dog moved at all they would bust away. What do you do in this instance? When the sheep have wide eyes and worry, and you still have a bit of time? Hi there. You got spoiled the first day and then you got REAL SHEEP the next day which is good 'cause you don't learn anything by being spoiled. Penning is an exercise in patience and knowledge of sheep. With the type of sheep you had and apparently the amount of time left you had, it would have been possible to take your time, position your dog properly, let him hold the pressure softly but firmly with you manipulating the sheep to get all their heads facing into the opening of the gate and then softly but firmly with the dog controlling the flight path shuffle them into the pen. With these kind of sheep, quiet control is what you want to use. You don't want your dog moving too fast with lightning speed unless he has to cover a break away. Nice smooth flanking by the dog is what you want, even to the point of the dog just leaning as much as necessary. You help by covering the escape path with the rope shaking it ever so softly and making yourself as big as possible, rope in one hand, stick in the other and very confident, not aggressive. It is an exercise in exruciatingly soft but firm movements, not scaring the sheep, but convincing them to turn and walk into a scary place. This means that you and the dog must be able to convince them that there is no other place to go than in and that all the places they are thinking about going are covered by either you or the dog. By using your crook or stick softly in the face of a sheep that is facing out of the pen opening you can usually convince that sheep to turn into the opening but be soft, just a little short wave is all you want. You don't want to scare her, you just want to make it uncomfortable enough for her to turn in. Now then, that is all for those kind of sheep but not for all. There are those out there which are not afraid of humans at all and then you may have to use different methods with a lot of help from you and the dog using a little more push to be more convincing. We'll deal with that one later when it comes up. The type of sheep you had reacted very similarly to the way unbroke range sheep will act at the pen and you better use lots of patience with them. .......good luck......Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Bovee Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 Thank you both for helping me to see something I've been doing at the pen. I'll share my mistake and then go work on it. I couldn't figure out why my dog would work so nicely and quietly at the pen, making subtle moves and then suddenly take off on a huge fast flank as I whispered an "away". Well, duh, your description of the calm power needed by the human gave me a picture of myself speaking calmly and waving a BIG STICK! Actions speak louder than words... ;-) Nancy Hi there. You got spoiled the first day and then you got REAL SHEEP the next day which is good 'cause you don't learn anything by being spoiled. Penning is an exercise in patience and knowledge of sheep. With the type of sheep you had and apparently the amount of time left you had, it would have been possible to take your time, position your dog properly, let him hold the pressure softly but firmly with you manipulating the sheep to get all their heads facing into the opening of the gate and then softly but firmly with the dog controlling the flight path shuffle them into the pen. With these kind of sheep, quiet control is what you want to use. You don't want your dog moving too fast with lightning speed unless he has to cover a break away. Nice smooth flanking by the dog is what you want, even to the point of the dog just leaning as much as necessary. You help by covering the escape path with the rope shaking it ever so softly and making yourself as big as possible, rope in one hand, stick in the other and very confident, not aggressive. It is an exercise in exruciatingly soft but firm movements, not scaring the sheep, but convincing them to turn and walk into a scary place. This means that you and the dog must be able to convince them that there is no other place to go than in and that all the places they are thinking about going are covered by either you or the dog. By using your crook or stick softly in the face of a sheep that is facing out of the pen opening you can usually convince that sheep to turn into the opening but be soft, just a little short wave is all you want. You don't want to scare her, you just want to make it uncomfortable enough for her to turn in. Now then, that is all for those kind of sheep but not for all. There are those out there which are not afraid of humans at all and then you may have to use different methods with a lot of help from you and the dog using a little more push to be more convincing. We'll deal with that one later when it comes up. The type of sheep you had reacted very similarly to the way unbroke range sheep will act at the pen and you better use lots of patience with them. .......good luck......Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 Thank you both for helping me to see something I've been doing at the pen. I'll share my mistake and then go work on it. I couldn't figure out why my dog would work so nicely and quietly at the pen, making subtle moves and then suddenly take off on a huge fast flank as I whispered an "away". Well, duh, your description of the calm power needed by the human gave me a picture of myself speaking calmly and waving a BIG STICK! Actions speak louder than words... ;-) Nancy Yes Nancy. That BIG STICK has created more problems for more people than I could count. It is a tool to extend the arm which gives you more of an area you are able to cover to help your dog. It's not a shotgun to blast off with at any time. Good luck and probably see you down east some time again.......Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted September 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Thanks Bob. I don't bring my stick onto the field anymore. It becomes well, some sort of scorcerer's tool, the way I wave it, and it has none of the magic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Thanks Bob. I don't bring my stick onto the field anymore. It becomes well, some sort of scorcerer's tool, the way I wave it, and it has none of the magic Hi there. Don't stop using your stick. It is a great tool and you don't want to be without it. Just learn to use it properly. Just keep telling yourself it is just an extension of my arm, that's all. It's not a weapon or a magic wand (although at times it can be a magic wand, used properly). Especially at the pen it gives you the ability to cover a much greater area and that is necessary to convince the sheep they have no other place to go but in the pen. The rope, you and your stick can cover about13 feet of the pen gate opening and the dog can cover the rest so, as you can see, without the stick you are not as much help to the dog as you could be. Try it, you'll like it. You'll get used to doing it right. Good luck....Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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