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Ivermectin

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Ok so I've always known that collies are sensitive to ivermectin and it can cause severe reactions because collies lack an enzyme and can't break it down. So I had talked to a merial rep (maker of headtgard) and she said that the dose is so low that it doesn't harm them they even put a picture of a bc on the headtgard box. After talking to 1 vet intern and 2 vets they all said it's just not safe at any dose. Dose anyone have there bc on headtgard? And what have you heard?

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According to the people who run the test for the mutation, the ivermectin dosage used in heartworm preventative is safe for affected dogs.

 

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/drugs.aspx

 

 

I think the point is that when it was the newest hottest thing even I gave it to my border collie mix without being aware and nothing happened. Thanksfully. I woudnt willingly give it when something else is available, works just as well and poses no risk to my dog.

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Ok so I've always known that collies are sensitive to ivermectin and it can cause severe reactions because collies lack an enzyme and can't break it down. So I had talked to a merial rep (maker of headtgard) and she said that the dose is so low that it doesn't harm them they even put a picture of a bc on the headtgard box. After talking to 1 vet intern and 2 vets they all said it's just not safe at any dose. Dose anyone have there bc on headtgard? And what have you heard?

 

I believe studies have shown that individual dogs in all of the collie types (not just border collies) have can reactions to invemectin, which would explain why some owners say their dog is fine on it and others report serious problems.

 

I use revolution on my dogs, which has no ivermecion and have never had a reaction or problem. It covers, fleas, heartworm, ear mites, mange, and ticks. The active ingredient is selamectin. It's available through Pet RX for a fairly reasonable price and you collect Pet Points that can be redeemed with the next purchase, which also lowers the cost.

 

Liz

 

"Rough-coated Collies are more sensitive to central nervous system toxicity associated with avermectins (36). A single topical dose of 40 mg/kg selamectin produced no abnormalities in avermectin-sensitive Collies. Three treatments every 28 days with five times the recommended dosage of selamectin or with saline resulted in sporadic mild salivation in both groups (35)."

 

from Israel Journal of Veterinary Medicine Vol 49 (2-3) 2003.

 

http://www.isrvma.org/article/58_2_1.htm

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I didn't click on the link that Paula put up but I will say, border collies are not collies and there have been no known cases of Border Collies that have the mutation that causes ivermec sensitivity.

I've used heartguard and ivermec on all my dogs for over 14 years and have had no issues.

Some vets are ill informed when it comes to the breeds that are sensitive.

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I think the point is that when it was the newest hottest thing even I gave it to my border collie mix without being aware and nothing happened. Thanksfully. I woudnt willingly give it when something else is available, works just as well and poses no risk to my dog.

Sheryl,

Dogs who have the mdr1-1delta mutation (i.e., ivermectin sensitivity) would be sensitive to that entire class of drugs (avermectins), which also includes things like milbemycin oxime (Interceptor). For dogs with the mutation, there are a number of other drugs that can also be dangerous. That said, if you check the American Working Collie website, there's a very good explanation that even dogs with the mutation aren't likely to react at the prophylactic dose.

 

I give all my dogs ivermectin (sheep drench, actually). They are dosed in tenths of millileters, so tiny amounts. (For comparison, my maremma LGD gets 12 cc, or nearly 100 times what the border collies get, but the maremma is getting a dose that not only prevents HW but also deals with intestinal worms. I wouldn't dose border collies at a level that would also take care of intestinal parasites, because even though no border collie tested has been found to have the mutation, I wouldn't take that risk when there are other wormers for intestinal parasites available.) That said I accidently gave one of the dogs a 10x dose (1 mL) one time with no ill effects. It's extremely cost effective and I certainly don't lose sleep at night worrying I'm putting my dogs in danger. I've been doing this for a few years now with no problems.

 

I often think that vets are either misinformed or just choose to err on the side of caution when it comes to the prevalence of the mdr1-1 delta mutation and the safety of avermectins for herding breed dogs.

 

J.

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Sheryl,

Dogs who have the mdr1-1delta mutation (i.e., ivermectin sensitivity) would be sensitive to that entire class of drugs (avermectins), which also includes things like milbemycin oxime (Interceptor). For dogs with the mutation, there are a number of other drugs that can also be dangerous. That said, if you check the American Working Collie website, there's a very good explanation that even dogs with the mutation aren't likely to react at the prophylactic dose.

 

I give all my dogs ivermectin (sheep drench, actually). They are dosed in tenths of millileters, so tiny amounts. (For comparison, my maremma LGD gets 12 cc, or nearly 100 times what the border collies get, but the maremma is getting a dose that not only prevents HW but also deals with intestinal worms. I wouldn't dose border collies at a level that would also take care of intestinal parasites, because even though no border collie tested has been found to have the mutation, I wouldn't take that risk when there are other wormers for intestinal parasites available.) That said I accidently gave one of the dogs a 10x dose (1 mL) one time with no ill effects. It's extremely cost effective and I certainly don't lose sleep at night worrying I'm putting my dogs in danger. I've been doing this for a few years now with no problems.

 

I often think that vets are either misinformed or just choose to err on the side of caution when it comes to the prevalence of the mdr1-1 delta mutation and the safety of avermectins for herding breed dogs.

 

J.

 

I've actually been using moxidectin oral but, I wasnt aware that interceptor posed a risk so point taken.

We have used Ivermetin for demodectic mange in both oral and injectable form on dogs with no real collie/shepherd anything in them. The injectable did cause real pain at the injection site which is why I switched to oral on the dog we have now who has failed all other treatments.

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From the AWCA website:

Two common medications administered in an oral monthly tablet for prevention of heartworm (ivermectin and milbemycin oxime) have been given to Collies "pure" for the mutation mdr1-1Δ without incident. These two forms of heartworm prophylaxis are equally safe at the monthly prophylaxis dose, and both are toxic at higher doses.

 

So-called "ivermectin" sensitivity is actually sensitivity to a broad class of compounds due to a basic defect in the blood-brain barrier.

 

Anti-helminthic pharameuticals that are P-glycoprotein substrates include the family of compounds known as macrocyclic lactones. These compounds exert their anti-helminthic properties by causing neurotoxicosis in a number of invertebrates (including helminths and arthropods) by potentiating ligand-gated chloride ion channels in the peripheral nervous system. Generations of macrocyclic lactones known as avermectins have been developed for veterinary use, decreasing their toxic side effects to normal animals (without the mdr1-1Δ mutation).

 

These compounds include: ivermectin, milbemycin oxime, moxidectin, selamectin, and doramectin. [emphasis added]

 

So moxidectin is not a safe alternative in the sense that if the dog is sensitive to ivermectin, it will also be sensitive to moxidectin, but if you note the first quote in this message, you'll see that *none* of them are considered dangerous to dogs with the mdr1-1delta mutation at the HW prophylaxis dose.

 

Examples of other drugs that are P-glycoprotein substrates include: erythromycin, grepafloxacin (antimicrobial agents); doxorubicin, vinca alkaloids (anticancer agents); cyclosporin A, tacrolimus (immunosuppressants); dexamethasone, hydrocortisone (steriods); loperamide, domperidon (gastrointestinal drugs); and quinidine, digoxin (cardiac drugs).

 

If you want to read the whole page yourself, it can be found here.

 

J.

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I'm sure I could research this for myself and I don't want anyone else to do a bunch a research for me....but I was wondering...

isn't moxidectin the same thing that was in pro-heart 6, the 6 month shot for HW protection that was taken off the market?

I know it's what I was last using on sheep for worms in the form of Cydectin and it worked great (for the time being).

Could it be the higher dose that was keeping dogs safe from HW for 6 months be the issue. Or was it the injectable part.

Just wondering.

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It's possible it was the high dose. On the website I quoted above, they noted that the high-dose long-term preventives were dangerous for collies with the mdr1-1delta mutation, and even cited an instance of an australian shepherd reacting badly to a long-term preventive (I believe Aussies are on the list of dogs potentially affected by the mutation).

 

J.

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My three have also been on Heartgard for about 3 or 4 years now. I give it year round. There have been no issues.

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It's possible it was the high dose. On the website I quoted above, they noted that the high-dose long-term preventives were dangerous for collies with the mdr1-1delta mutation, and even cited an instance of an australian shepherd reacting badly to a long-term preventive (I believe Aussies are on the list of dogs potentially affected by the mutation).

 

I know of 1 border collie that had a reaction to the proheart 6 shot. Can't really remember the details but they were SOL as there was no way to undo what had already been done. The dog did live but really had a hard time for about 2 weeks.

I think it started with anaphylactic shock and went on from there.

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It is believed that it was the carrying agent, not the ivermectin, that was causing problems with the ProHeart 6.

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It is believed that it was the carrying agent, not the ivermectin, that was causing problems with the ProHeart 6

 

Interesting

So that puts moxidectin in the same catagory as ivermectin, safe for canines without the MDR1 mutation? Making the assumption that you meant Moxidectin not ivermectin. Or am I wrong altogether and moxidectin was not the ingredient in proheart 6?

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I think I was so stuck on the Ivermectin bad thought that I just avoided it and wasnt aware of the group relationship based on what I had been told.

 

We switched to moxidectin to save on HW meds and cover some other worms. Believe it or not it's not super effective on common round worms.

 

I wont give the dose to puppies, we spend the money for a proper interceptor dog dose for them.

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Choose the one that works the best for you. Perhaps the best thing to remember is that these agents aren't "medicine" but a toxic chemical that is given in low enough doses to be a detriment to the target population and not harm the host. Be very mindful of dose as measured by weight as these are often broad categories. In Revolution, for example, the adult dog dosage is measured in at least 20 pound increments. Mine are now falling in the middle of the 20-40 lb category.

 

Liz

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Perhaps the best thing to remember is that these agents aren't "medicine" but a toxic chemical ......

Liz

All "medicies" are "toxic chemicals" if given at too high of a dose. The therapeutic dose and safe dose ranges are different for every medicine/chemical.

 

Example: Digoxin (or digitalis) is a widley used medicine for the treatment of various heart conditions. It is given at very low doses. It can be extracted from foxglove and it is very toxic.

 

Mark

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All "medicies" are "toxic chemicals" if given at too high of a dose. The therapeutic dose and safe dose ranges are different for every medicine/chemical.

 

Example: Digoxin (or digitalis) is a widley used medicine for the treatment of various heart conditions. It is given at very low doses. It can be extracted from foxglove and it is very toxic.

 

Mark

 

Mark, well, sure....my point was that worming agents are really a form of a pesticide, not medication in the traditional sense, and, as you reiterated, be very careful to administer the appropriate dosage. Though I suppose you could think of them in the same category as chemotherapy, which from personal experience is a very necessary but very toxic chemical :rolleyes:.

 

Have a good day.

 

Liz

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Liz,

 

and my point was, you shouldn't think about medications as being good or bad (medications vs. pesticides). They all have the potential to do harm or good depending upon the dose, this includes vitamins and essential minerals. Many medications have alternative uses depending upon the dose; you just may not be aware of these uses and associated doses.

 

Mark

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Salt can be toxic in high doses to any animal and you can kill weeds and slugs with it. But at lower exposure rates, it's not only benign, but necessary for life.

 

I feel it's more useful to talk about options for minimizing exposure rather than labeling one substance bad and another okay.

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We have been giving Ivomec Oral Sheep Drench (.08%) to our dogs for over 5 years and no adverse effects whatsoever. A lot of top breeders/handlers use it and we have all done a lot of research. We WOULD NOT put our dogs at risk if there were side effects. It is safe at the recommended dosage. I give .5cc to my BC's that are 35 - 50 pounds.

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Liz,

 

and my point was, you shouldn't think about medications as being good or bad (medications vs. pesticides). They all have the potential to do harm or good depending upon the dose, this includes vitamins and essential minerals. Many medications have alternative uses depending upon the dose; you just may not be aware of these uses and associated doses.

 

Mark

 

I never said that pesticides were bad....and I didn't disagree with your point.

 

My main point was and is -Whether you call any flea/worming agent a pesticide (and it is attacking pests) or medicine, be very aware of the weight-dosage ratio, a point that you repeated. The prepackaged "spot" applicators often have a twenty pound or more weight span. If a dog is just over the weight limit for one dosage category, he's getting a pretty high dose for his weight when you move to the next category, which could be problematic no matter which agent is administered. Giving a measured injection as suggested by another post might be a way around this problem.

 

Liz

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