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I agree with you, Maralynn....If you read my note again, perhaps you'll see that I was saying that Border COllies are interested in everything their owner/handler does beyond stock work....and I was just commenting that Scotty was exceptionally good at language and body signals (another Border Collie characteristic) probably because it was the only thing he was allowed to learn in his previous home. His prey drive was nonexistent. He barely chased a ball though he'd tug at the tether ball all day long..

 

I would think that some essential characteristics remain in the Barbie lines and if the lines are kept mostly separate and God forbid, if something catastrophic genetic thing ever happens to the working border collie lines, there'll at least be something to start over with...think I saw something about a woman who was working with AKC bred Cocker Spaniels back to their original task as hunting/retrieving dogs....

 

I don't know where I fit in on these boards, honestly. I'm a farm girl at heart, raised with cows, horses, other various animals, and wonderful herding dogs. I continue to stay with the breed to give rescue dogs a good home -- Scotty was literally taken to the vet to be put down and the vet called rescue because he was a nice dog in an unsuitable home. I do different things with my pups because I don't have any kind of livestock and don't intend to get any. The pups weren't exactly culls from the litter, because there good solid dogs and Brodie especially would make a fine sheep dog, I think. But one was red and one was mostly white, both colors noticeably unpopular with the herding crowd, so they came to us.

 

I joined these boards to ask questions about particular habits and get training tips, which has worked out beautifully and I appreciate all of the helpful comments. Noone has led me wrong yet. But the way people bite and snip at each other makes me want to head over to the other side of the fence.

 

Liz

 

Umm, bite and snip? I'm not sure where you got that out of my post unless you're really reading something into it that isn't there. If someone would care to point it out to me, I'm all ears. In my second post I was actually agreeing with you that I was sure the barbie type collies could make good pets... Sigh. I felt you took my original post on the subject out of the context that I had intended, so I was clarifying the pooint I was trying to make. Oh well.

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I would think that some essential characteristics remain in the Barbie lines and if the lines are kept mostly separate and God forbid, if something catastrophic genetic thing ever happens to the working border collie lines, there'll at least be something to start over with...

 

As a long-time occasional breeder of working border collies it is my opinion that we would be better off to start over (if we had to) with a breed that still works, like the kelpie, than to try to reconstruct the working ability from the conformation border collie lines. Once Humpty Dumpty is broken, it's hard to put all the pieces back together the right way again.

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Once Humpty Dumpty is broken, it's hard to put all the pieces back together the right way again.

 

Not to mention hundreds of years of selective breeding based on nothing but hard, day in and day out work. The one about the barbies doing 800 hundred yard outruns is such BS as to be delusional. The Barbies I've seen couldn't walk that far or process information long enough to get there. The last one that showed up at my place for an instinct test, didn't have any at all, and looked like a Corgi with an over-sized border collie head, or something out of Stephen King novel. I couldn't decide. It came from an AKC barbie collie breeder with a fancy website.

 

Bobby Dalziel once put on a trial at his place in the Ettrick Valley, and set it up with a 750 yard outrun. That's a quarter of a mile people. He told me that he would never do it again, because of all the dogs entered only a few found their sheep. He had spent most of the day holding the same set of sheep for dogs that never arrived. So to suggest that the Scottish hill dogs can't, but the Barbies can is just plain stupid or those that made the statement have an uncommonly poor sense of distance. Ever seen an 800 yard arena?

 

Cheers all,

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Once Humpty Dumpty is broken, it's hard to put all the pieces back together the right way again.

 

And I assume much like evolution, sometimes it's not just hard, but impossible, because certain necessary traits have simply been lost from the genepool. Happens all the time in natural selection. Sometimes a different trait can later be co-opted to perform the task of the original trait, but this is not certain. And sometimes, that co-opted trait, even if developed into doing the old task again, can never function as well as the original.

 

Ejano, no one thinks that you have to put them on livestock to be a true border collie owner, or a "good one". And I'm not sure where the talk of rescue comes in right after you say you don't know what your place is - there is such an active rescue-oriented sub-community on board here. So your place here is whatever you want it to be or make of it. The insistence that the only work is stockwork is not a slam on any other activity, it is just the honest truth. The insistance that dogs be proven to a certain level for breeding only has to do with breeding decisions. If you love and train and take good care of your dogs, it definitely doesn't matter at all whether they could be fine stockdogs or not. Even the best breedings produce poor examples of the breed in terms of ability to work occassionally, and these dogs are deserving of love and homes and activities to do as well.

 

The conformation lines, I'm sure, have very nice individual dogs in them. But that doesn't change the fundamental issue - why would anyone take this functional breed and decide they wanted something different? Confo people do that, while at the same time claiming they are retaining all that was good and useful in the original lines - having their cake and eating it too. If you point out to them they can't possibly be retaining the major traits that define the breed, they come back with some version of "I do the best I can." I think this is why they seem less exclusionary (btw, I DON'T think the people here are exclusionary in the slightest, but it is constantly perceived as such when these conversations come up). The "other side of the fence" may look more welcoming than this side because there are few real standards they hold anyone to - hip and eye checks are easy when compared to making good breeding decisions on every other trait that exists.

 

I peeked around on other threads btw - the main confo BC person arguing against Shayna, Pat, and Laurelin who kept spouting off that she "knew" there were all sorts of working dogs out there with poor conformation and were therefore unhealthy? She mentioned in a thread about another litter, to a pit bull breeder who had just bred a litter with several birth defects like double harelips and several stillborn pups, essentially she said, "Oh, we've *all* been there. Don't beat yourself up. Sometimes you do all you can and it still happens." Now, this is very nice to that breeder's emotions, and certainly isn't bitey and snippy, but excuse me if I think what that person needs right now is *NOT* a community getting behind him and building up his confidence to get the next litter on the ground as quickly as possible (which he was planning to do, I believe even with a similar cross as what had produced the bad litter). No, what that person needs right now is to re-evaluate what happened, what he knows about making crosses, and what he knows about canine health and development. And be made to realize the import of what he's just done: put 5 more pitties, who aren't even morphologically normal, out into the already glutted pet market for this breed in crisis. That is what people do here - tell people what they need to hear. And I find it MUCH more valuable than "Hey, kid, just dust yourself off and breed 'em again!" Just something to consider about this side vs. the other.

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Ejano, no one thinks that you have to put them on livestock to be a true border collie owner, or a "good one". And I'm not sure where the talk of rescue comes in right after you say you don't know what your place is - there is such an active rescue-oriented sub-community on board here. So your place here is whatever you want it to be or make of it. The insistence that the only work is stockwork is not a slam on any other activity, it is just the honest truth. The insistance that dogs be proven to a certain level for breeding only has to do with breeding decisions. If you love and train and take good care of your dogs, it definitely doesn't matter at all whether they could be fine stockdogs or not. Even the best breedings produce poor examples of the breed in terms of ability to work occassionally, and these dogs are deserving of love and homes and activities to do as well.

 

I only point out that we end up with my dogs by happy accident -- I think they find us :rolleyes: We've been fortunate that our dogs have not had major dysfunctional issues and we're working hard to be sure that Robin and Brodie are well raised. I've received some very good advice on these boards about how to approach training issues and hope to continue doing so.

 

I only entered this conversation because I've always been curious why Scotty was so different in size than Ladybug or the other Border Collies I've seen and the difference in his profle. He was a very handsome dog, even if this picture doesn't show him to his best advantage and I miss him so much.

 

and ...She mentioned in a thread about another litter, to a pit bull breeder who had just bred a litter with several birth defects like double harelips and several stillborn pups, essentially she said, "Oh, we've *all* been there. Don't beat yourself up. Sometimes you do all you can and it still happens." Now, this is very nice to that breeder's emotions, and certainly isn't bitey and snippy, but excuse me if I think what that person needs right now is *NOT* a community getting behind him and building up his confidence to get the next litter on the ground as quickly as possible

 

I don't like what I see in the AKC community either...beyond the inability to do the job for which they were intended, there are too many designer breeds of dogs that have serious temperament issues and dogs that are mentally unstable and should be put down instead of bred for their conformation. Border Collies who are out of the AKC loop (mine are ABCA registered) are really unpopular there, too. I'm proud that my pups are out of serious working lines, and are healthy, nicely conformed, no nasty temperment issues and yes darned good looking! What I've seen in just the few weeks of obedience class curls what hair I've got left after chemotherapy....a woman who has no sense of how to discipline a stray Staffordshire being told, oh yeah, he can pass is CGC, when he just threatened to gobble up Robin???? A Yorkie so vicious its owner literally has to dangle it from its leash to get it to stop barking and snapping and the woman isn't corrected for strangling her dog, which she plans to take into the show ring???

 

I entered Brodie in a beginner class because he needs to be around different dogs...he's a bully with his brother but in the real world, he's timid, feels threatened and he barks and growls, for which he receives a correction and I told the instructor that was the reason he's attending. He has all of his manners; he just needs exposure to new things. Fine, fine, bring him along, pay your money here...

 

It seemed like a good class -- puppies and elementary age children, which he doesn't see at all. There's only three of us in the class - Brodie and I, a 12 week old German Shepherd pup whose parents work the pup because the little boy is so shy he won't leave his mother's side and an 5 month old Aussie whose owner's grandfather breeds "champions" She is a pretty dog, but pushy and undisciplined because her owner is a little girl. Today, Brodie and I are hanging out in the corner watching the two pups play after class - he's on a down stay, reinforced by my foot on the leash being fed an occasional treat when he relaxes because I'm trying to teach him that a good dog doesn't chase everything that crosses his path and it seemed a teachable moment. The bouncy pushy Aussie lass comes over after being punished for picking on the German Shepherd pup too much, invades Brodie's space which basically crowds him in the corner, and he growls just a bit in his own defense and WE get yelled at because the trainer is am AKC "Aussie" person and we belong to the ABCA!

 

I'm going to crawl under a rock and take my dogs with me. And maybe the cat.

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I wouldn't be sure they don't have a true rapport with their dogs. There are many people out there who have extremely strong bonds with dogs that are "only" lapdogs and housepets. I agree that having a working relationship with a dog is truly remarkable, but I can't say that it is quantitatively better than the relationships that other people have with non-working dogs.

 

They just have different priorities, and there's nothing you can do about that. I think their definition of "Border Collie" is fundamentally flawed, but otherwise I support whatever they want to do with their personal dogs. I don't consider their dogs Border Collies, but I'm sure they don't much care what I think.

 

I totally agree with that post.

 

True, but people who value their dogs firstly by appearance, are probably not in that group

 

It's simply not true to say that because someone has a conformation dog then they value it firstly by appearance as an individual dog. I have a champion show dog (not a BC before everyone gasps) and I certainly certainly don't value him for his looks first. He's a remarkable animal in his own right. Brilliant and intuitive, hilarious to the core, and a fabulous companion dog which is what his breed's job has always been. If I think of what I love about him, it's not 'Oh he has the perfect tail set, etc'. I'd tell you of how just plain awesome he is to have around and how funny he is. Yes, the bc breeders in that thread's breeding philosophies are different than here and their ideal border collie is totally different than what I think, but I don't think in any way you can tell how their relationship is with their dog from that.

 

That said I obviously don't agree with their theories on border collies at all.

 

I will say coming to this board I thought a lot like them though (the do it all thoughts). I love that this board is always making you THINK about things. Thinking is never a bad thing to do. It's interesting talking to the show people on other boards now. I think my opinion has almost made a 180.

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First and foremost, I want to say that my below post is about the comments about agility, not breeding for conformation.

 

I just need to ask, since when is agility looked down upon? Am I misunderstanding? I read the bulletin on their website and it said that people who do not herd sheep with their dogs are NOT second class citizens. I'm not seeing that in this thread.

 

For everyone, herding is not a possibility. Just as not everyone who owns a retriever or terrier is able to hunt. I would much rather see people doing flyball and agility with their border collies than nothing at all. The truth of the matter is very few breeds are doing what they were bred to do as society has changed and the world has industrialized, but I think it is still necessary and positive to do sports and activities with your dog. Am I misunderstanding that suddenly agility is not seen as an acceptable activity for border collie owners?

 

I want to remind the group of this statement made by the moderators: Border collie owners who don't use their dogs to work livestock are not second-class citizens.

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First and foremost, I want to say that my below post is about the comments about agility, not breeding for conformation.

 

I just need to ask, since when is agility looked down upon? Am I misunderstanding? I read the bulletin on their website and it said that people who do not herd sheep with their dogs are NOT second class citizens. I'm not seeing that in this thread.

 

For everyone, herding is not a possibility. Just as not everyone who owns a retriever or terrier is able to hunt. I would much rather see people doing flyball and agility with their border collies than nothing at all. The truth of the matter is very few breeds are doing what they were bred to do as society has changed and the world has industrialized, but I think it is still necessary and positive to do sports and activities with your dog. Am I misunderstanding that suddenly agility is not seen as an acceptable activity for border collie owners?

 

I want to remind the group of this statement made by the moderators: Border collie owners who don't use their dogs to work livestock are not second-class citizens.

 

A ton of people on here do agility. It's just breeding for agility that people tend not to agree with, which is totally different than participating in agility.

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The thing that continues to intrigue me is that everything and anything I do, all of the BCs we've owned are interested in and want to help, in whatever I'm doing, particularly outside chores, though I do remember explaining to Lucky how to knit one, purl two :rolleyes:, -- this is the partnership thing I got in trouble for suggesting in another post....It isn't just curiosity that brings them to your side, truly believe that the Border Collie breed simply excels at being a helpmate in what ever you choose too do....even digging a hole for a shrub they are right there, ready and willing to put their energy to the job.

 

I know just what you mean. I remember one occasion when I was salting sheepskins in the barn, and I was trying to lift the plywood the skins were on up into the rafters. It was just at the limit of my physical strength to do this, and two of my dogs, who were watching my struggle from the other side of a half door, could clearly sense this, and they began whining in their anxiousness to come and help me. They didn't have a plan, obviously, but they sensed that I needed help and they were aching to provide it. Try explaining this to someone who doesn't know border collies, and they will think you are crazy. :D

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Ah okay I understand. Thank you for clarifying!

I think the other thing you might have misinterpreted is that the people who made the original comments about agility were also responding to a collie breeder's claim that success in agility could be used to evaluate a dog's ability to work livestock, which is, of course, a crock. No one is saying agility is bad, but anyone claiming that the ability to learn agility is somehow indicative of potential stockworking ability and therefore a viable criterion for breeding a dog is just full of sh!t.

 

J.

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  • 2 weeks later...

For me, this thread hits particularly close to home, and I am (perhaps foolishly) compelled to post.

 

First, a little background for those who don't know...

 

I began showing dogs in AKC conformation when I was ten years old, starting with a Belgian Tervuren and ending with Brittanys. For years, I was completely wrapped up in the AKC world (I refuse to call it "ACK"... I have many good friends that are ethical, awesome people who love their dogs as DOGS first, not just because they are pretty, or some nonsense like that) and competed successfully, achieving national rankings, at the highest levels of conformation shows. I also dabbled a bit in performance events with my Brittanys, and got to see what a good working "field" dog was like by attending hunt tests and field trials. I have always had a great appreciation for seeing a dog do what it was bred to do, and well. Even competing in conformation, I knew that there were more important things to a dog than just having good structure, lots of coat, or whatever. I doubt that you could find more than a few (ethical) people in the AKC world that would dispute that.

 

A few years ago, after three years of dreaming and research (and additional experience with BC rescue), I bought my first Border Collie from a rather well-known show/versatility breeder. Cedar is half ISDS working lines, and half British show lines. To tell you the truth, the working side of her pedigree appealed to me more as I have always preferred the look of the working Border Collie. I thought I could have it both ways.... a pretty dog that could work. (Un)fortunately, what I got was a dog that wasn't really bred for (or good at) either stockwork or conformation show stuff.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I love my girl... she is the most amazing dog I've ever had the pleasure to be around. We are so bonded that we can almost read each others thoughts. She is fabulous at obedience and agility, and is a wonderful pet. Most importantly, she has been my introduction to something that has become perhaps my biggest passion: stockwork. I have faith that she will end up being a “useful dog” on stock someday, but we have certainly gone through a lot. Granted, a lot of our problems are totally my (newbie) fault, but she is not the best, or most natural dog on sheep. I know that most of her reoccurring issues are genetic. She tends to be tight, reactive, slicey, and panics easily.... but she always tries to figure out what I want. There have been many times that I wanted to just give up because it didn't seem worth it to struggle this much over something that we may never be good at. It is interesting to look back and see how far we've come since we started, because it's pretty amazing. She is basically a different dog now than she was, and our relationship has completely changed for the better.

 

My intentions with her were to do primarily performance stuff (agility and obedience, and I wanted to "try" herding, HAHA) and maybe do some showing on the side. I had done some research into the ABCA/AKC debate, and, I suppose understandably, originally sided pretty much with the AKC as the idea of a "versatile" dog appealed to me greatly. I honestly did not know any better; as far as I knew, AKC registered dogs were the best way to go.

 

What I didn't 'get' at that time that I understand now, is that the working dogs do not need to be bred for conformation specifically, because in order to do their jobs well, they have to be functional both physically and mentally. Living proof of this is SO apparent that it's freaking maddening that I didn't get it before; the majority of working-bred dogs that I've been around are much more functionally built and sane than show-bred Border Collies. And they also are able to do what they've been bred to do for centuries.

 

Anyways....when my girl was a little over a year old, I emailed her breeder and asked who in my area would be a good person to take her to see how she would do on sheep. I was curious to see what she'd do. Her breeder told me that Patrick (Shannahan) would be a good person to contact, and he led me to Dianne Deal. Five minutes into our first lesson and I was hooked... even though Cedar was kind of scary.... gripping and panicked (she was NOT like the “bounce bounce bark!” fluffballs...). I got to see several other (working line) dogs work that night, and thought that it was the most amazing and beautiful thing that I had ever seen. By my second lesson, I knew that I would never own another Border Collie that was not working bred. What I was seeing just felt “right” to me.

 

Since it first caught my interest, I have completely immersed myself in the sport, and read everything that I could get my hands on. I have attended numerous lessons (several times a week) and trials (just to watch, so far) and tried to learn as much as I could about everything relating to sheepdogs. I also joined this board, but have felt too inexperienced to post much thus far. I should say that have learned SO much by reading these discussions, though. I must say that I do appreciate the honesty of a lot of the people on here. I do try to stay away from drama... my life is full of enough of it already! :D

I learned pretty quickly that the working crowd is (pretty much) all opposed to anything to do with the AKC, and since my girl holds AKC papers, I try not to bring up her background. Thankfully, most people don't ask.

 

I would hate to think that people would judge me and/or my dog based on where she came from. Yes, she has been called a “Barbie”-- to my face, no less. It should be all about the work, right? So far, everyone has been SO great at helping us get on our way. Even though I am still incredibly new and awkward at this “sheepdog thing,” I love this sport more than anything I have ever done with dogs. The amount of training, work, natural talent, partnership, and TRUST that goes into molding a great working dog is so amazing. I can't even eloquently put into words how great I think it is. I guess, basically, I am completely in awe of this breed, and the dedicated people that campaign for the “true” Border Collie.

 

... and now, my first working-line pup has just started training :rolleyes:

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Great post, and thanks for sharing your story. I wish more people would come around to the working dog way of thinking, but maybe folks like you who have been active on both sides can help others to see the difference between working and conformation-bred as well, and perhaps show/teach that working-bred dogs are the truly *versatile* dogs! Honestly no one does care that your original dogs are AKC registered. And if they can work stock to a good standard, that's all that matters in the end.

 

J.

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I've been on a long, long journey with various dogs. Although I've never been in the AKC camp, I have to say that I didn't entirely buy in to the notion that breeding FOR stockwork is first and foremost if you want to be able to count on that dog.

 

I've tried to train everything from rescues to okay bred dogs, to messed up second hand dogs that started out as nice dogs. I am supremely untalented as a handler - I'm okay as a trainer but not when it comes to stock - I'm still lacking in too many of the tools needed to help my dog.

 

I recently discovered though, that a well bred dog/pup makes all the difference in helping a newbie see the pieces. It's like learning to drive with a brand new Cadillac versus a Pinto with the front end out of alignment and the clutch half burnt out. You don't have to worry about "holding your mouth right" to keep the car on the road and in gear, and can just focus on learning to drive.

 

I learn something every time I take Ted out to do the simplest chores. I've had some good help but I don't take regular lessons, especially lately - and yet I'm still making progress. With other dogs, that weren't quite right, I'd never get anywhere on my own and often I'd mess up any progress we made last time we "Checked in" with a pro.

 

And now I'm starting to work with Sam a bit - he's just a baby at six months old, but the magic is there with him too! Wow! I've finally learned the "dance" in the round pen and Sam's starting trust me to help him there, something I've never been able to do with a little one, without help. And, before we really even started working, Sam already had the "out of the box" ability to hold sheep to me (my entire flock of thirty some), gather them in a 200' by 200' area, push them to a gate, and through a chute.

 

How is this relevant to the AKC question? Just this. Is the point of breeding stockdogs, to make nice dogs? Or is it to produce a helper for the livestock operation? The vast majority of farmers are going to be like me - too busy to make it to week after week of lessons just to get a dog somewhat useful. After working with many, many dogs, the only kind of dog that has what it takes to be a "self starter" is one bred ONLY for livestock work, from parents bred likewise, and so on and so on. Conformation people are fooling themselves when they think they can improve on this model. There's only room for degradation when arbitrary physical factors are added in to the mix of out of the box working characteristics.

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maybe folks like you who have been active on both sides can help others to see the difference between working and conformation-bred as well, and perhaps show/teach that working-bred dogs are the truly *versatile* dogs!

 

J.

 

I agree very much with this statement. I compete with the Schnauzers in AKC Agility, and have been involved for 8 years, so I know quite a few people on the other side of the fence. An aquaintance of mine recently got a cute little BC pup, when I asked where she was from, he said a small dairy ranch up in Mo, her parents are ABCA registered and while not trial dogs, they work stock on the ranch. I was excited and congratulated him on his new addition.

 

A good friend of mine was dismayed, "But she's not from AKC lines". While only 1 of her BCs is from confirmation lines, 2 others are from an Obedience breeder and 1 is from an Agility Breeder - I've at least convinced her not to get another from a Show breeder, but she has yet to see the light anywhere else ("But Obedience Breeders don't breed for looks"). This friend is a 3rd Generation Show dog handler, and it's only the fact that she's athletic and would rather run agility than enter a beauty pageant that she isn't a 3rd Generation Show dog breeder as well.

 

It's frustrating sometimes, but the best part is when people ask you where you get your dog and they are suprised they haven't heard the name because it's not a well-known agility breeder. Perhaps the top structure evaluator in Agility, she is extremely respected, asked where Mal came from because he was beautifully proportioned. That's probably the biggest compliment I've ever recieved on a dog. He was bred for work, and the structure just fell into place. He's high drive on course, but he's also content to walk nicely on a leash from my set-up to the gate and patiently wait his turn - something many Sports-bred dogs can't do. It's depressing. But maybe someday people will start to see the difference.

 

PS - I hate to name names here, but maybe something that will help is all of these Sport breeders (Contact Point, Hob Nob etc) that are getting watered down. Anybody who wants to do agility with their dog can get a CP pup, they breed more and more and the dogs are losing their prestige.

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I was just sitting here wondering if there is a message board where Barbie Collie breeders and Kool-Aid drinkers hang out and what gets said in response to the newbies that show up and say,

 

I am an occasional 'fly on the wall' at the 'BorderColliesInCanada' group. It is very small and doesn't attract the kind of newbies you are thinking of. The members are all drinking the Kool-Aid and 99% of what little disussion that takes place is 'brags' & congrats type show & agility. Anti-conformation is not allowed.

Barbie Collies are/were rare in Canada as it is only recently that the CKC allowed the hi-jacking of the breed. So most kennel club people go to known conformation breeders in bordering US states to get their Barbies. However there are plenty of agility breeders in Canada. And as usual, sadly, they claim to have the dogs that can 'do it all'. A few of them cross with working lines and have produced dogs that can achieve some success at the Novice level.

There is only one Barbie breeder in BC that tried to dabble in 'herding'; she quickly came to the realization that her dogs would be capable of only minimal arena-type stock work.

 

cheers Lani

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It frustrates me that people breed dogs just for their conformation. My fiance's parents have always had shelities and the breeder they got them from prides herself on her dogs temperment. They don't play with toys, and couldn't herd a dust mouse. She basically breeds lap dogs. It's sad really. People are destroying the true border collie lines to make a dollar. My two came from rescue and Tobey originally came from a pet shop at the mall. Izzy is a BC/Jack Russell mix from the south.

 

My point is that if this trend continues the BC will stop being the BC that has been around for hundreds of years. It saddens me.

 

Tim

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years ago, I would have agreed with you that it was wrong to judge any Border Collie by it's looks. Unfortunately now the conformation bred Border Collile is of such bizarre, non fuctional conformation and coat that the breeder and owners who contribute to that imo, deserve the comments that they get.

 

 

I just read all the posts on this board, and it makes me wonder. Maybe it's a good thing that there are AKC BCs. Anyone who wants a real working dog has the sense not to go to a conformation breeder for a stock dog. And if the dogs that the conformation breeders are producing have less drive and are as dumb as a box of rocks they might be just the thing for apartment dwellers who think they want one of those "pretty dogs they saw in 'Babe.'" One less working dog in a totally unsuitable environment. I'm a "pet-owner" and I am training my rescue BC as an assistance dog. She gets lots of exercise, plenty to do and is very happy. (She is clearly not from conformation stock.) Does it do any good for the owners of working BCs to snipe at the conformation set, or AKC dogs? I didn't want to see BCs registered by the AKC either - but they are now. And I know plenty of AKC dogs that have good lives and enrich those of their owners. Is that not worth something? Real working dogs are not diminished by the "work" that their AKC relatives do. I want to do fly ball and agility with my BC. As I understand it, this means I have to get her an ILP #. So yep, she will be an "AKC" dog. It will not make her less useful to me, and I don't think she'll loose IQ points. Who cares if a dog that looks like a black and white wooly retriever goes BIS at Wesminster? Will that make one single working dog less valuable?

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Yes, she has been called a “Barbie”-- to my face, no less.

 

So being called a barbie collie is an insult to ACK people? I have a friend who's dog is ACK. He is not the block heady type. I can't really say what he looks like, as he's built to work sheep conformation wise (I don't think that was on propose) but he's just beautiful. She says he would never do well in the breed ring but agrees with me on how beautiful he is. A comparison that might be close is DS's Jin dog. Please don't think I"m insulting Jin, just I think he's a pretty dog!

 

I call this boy a barbie but with well meaning intentions cause he is just so pretty. He is working stock and she's making a bit of progress but she's been trying for a long time so I see some handling coming out that you don't see in normal ACK people. He's never gonna make it to anything other than novice in USBCHA but she's really enjoying AHBA and her dog.

 

Guess my question is....why do conformation people feel insulted when their dogs are referred to as a Barbie or Ken. Aren't they competing in beauty contests by doing conformation stuff?

I think all my dogs are beautiful but it's the work that makes them so beautiful not their looks. I think I'd giggle if someone referred to one of mine as a barbie. Ahhh...just no time for huge drama. I'll keep helping anyone I can get my hands on to see true beauty in the work, but if they can't see it, it's really thier loss.

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why because show folks dont beleive that conformation is a "beauty pagent" they absolutly beleive that THEY are breeding for "proper structure and type" and its all those "other" breeders putting focas on looks. show breeders get very insulted at the insinuation that they are doing anything for "apperence" as opposed to "proper working structure" whatever they think THAT is.

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Another thing is that show breeders feel that they have to breed stringently for appearance and conformation, but that instinct is a given - breed for generations for something other than purpose, and a bird dog will still be a bird dog, and a herding breed dog will still be a herding dog. It's rather like the very old-fashioned and long-discredited concept that if you breed something to look like something (or your concept of what that something should look like, whether it's functional or not), it will be that something. Well, that and topping it off with the fact that show breeders breed for a constantly "evolving" appearance that changes with times and styles, not for functionality.

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I want to do fly ball and agility with my BC. As I understand it, this means I have to get her an ILP #. So yep, she will be an "AKC" dog.

 

Hi,

 

Your dog doesn't have to be registered with AKC to do flyball....She could be a mix breed and still play flyball so no worries if AKC will or won't think she's a pure bred border collie=)

 

Janet

 

ETA-Same for agility, just not AKC agility of course.

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Ok but it still doesn't make sence. They breed for what they think is right in apperance but don't think their dogs are beautiful? Or don't want anyone to say they are beautiful? Not that I think they are but there are certain dogs that come from anywhere or everywhere that I think are pretty. Not the fluffy butts but just some dogs.

 

Still scratching my head over this. So ack breeders don't want their dogs to be beautiful? But lets prade them around a ring and have someone judging them on their looks? Confusing if you ask me.

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