Good health news for Vala, and another question...

[pansmom]

Let's start with the good news: we took Vala back to the vet yesterday and her kennel cough is gone, her intestinal worms are gone, and she gained two pounds in one week to be 29.1 pounds now! She probably only needs to gain another two at most. Also the hip I was worried about - we did a small x-ray, not too expensive, just $45 - is in fact dislocated, but Doc Carson thinks it would be crazy to do surgery now because she doesn't limp and isn't in pain and the x-ray shows her body made a false joint, so the only symptom is just the slight protusion of bone. Later down the road if it starts bothering her we might have to - years from now - but he says there is NO REASON to do it now because her body has in essence fixed itself. So great health news there. AND we started her on the doxycycline yesterday and OH MY GOODNESS! We're only doing the DC at first, to weaken the heartworms, before we start her on the Heartgard in 2 weeks (to lessen the shock to her system when we start her on the preventative and the microfilaria all die at once). The thing is, the antibiotic is only supposed to weaken the heartworms by killing the bacteria with which they are somewhat symbiotic, thus sterilizing them - it doesn't kill them, nor is it an infanticide to kill the microfilaria (heartworm larvae). But the difference in her energy yesterday evening and tonight is INSANE! She is jumping (not on me, but with excitement in the mornings upon coming out of her kennel), wanting to run more, roaming the house - following me around - almost never staying in her kennel. Late yesterday afternoon we were in the backyard as I was mowing with my push mower (the kind without an engine, just a spiral of blades with a protective covering) and the silly girl was WALKING WITH ME back and forth as we did rows (off leash). I kid you not. It was so cute! I ended up taking her into the front yard with me and she WALKED ON LEASH in the front yard right beside me, back and forth, "helping me" mow for a bit (to comprise her second long walk of the day). So most everything is going great.

 

Vala is no longer barking at Nyxie when she jumps on the counter (and interestingly, Nyxie is not jumping on the counter as much, since I'm telling her to get "off" myself and getting between them telling Vala to leave it, then praising the cat when she listens to me, making sure to end the situation positively for everybody). And Vala is getting along better with both cats, giving them space and not trying to control their movements in most situations. She does rush into the room when she hears another animal getting attention, but it no longer is to herd* the other animal away from me as much as it is to share some of the limelight herself. So that's improvement. The way I've gotten this far is basically to always tell Vala to leave it, then ignoring her when she circles for example when I am holding a cat, and only paying her attention when she is polite and respectful and not demanding, basically alternating "leave it" and withdrawn eye contact, then restoring and praising Vala when she calmly sits. There are no more raised hackles or barking in these scenarios. And she isn't jumping or anything. Since I'm already seeing progress, I have been thinking with a few more days of positive reinforcement that good things happen for Vala when she shares attention, she will become fine with me paying attention to my other animals and begin to associate my moments of attention to them as an opportunity for her to enjoy some attention herself... and maybe even eventually when she realizes that I will always be here for her, stop letting it bother her so much and thinking that I have a finite amount of attention to share. I was thinking with the way I am handling it, she is learning that DEMANDING attention or trying to STEAL it from others results in you getting none (I switch focus to the other animal more completely when she escalates her ploys for attention and when she calms down and is more polite I pretend to notice her only then and pet her and start sharing attention).

 

However, there are two manifestations of this tendency of hers that perhaps seem to imply that the above strategy isn't working. I'm thinking probably I should ignore her altogether when she rushes up to me when I pet the other cats, or take her to time out IMMEDIATELY so she is isolated, so she knows there are consequences for being demanding like this.*

 

The first situation happens when I am in bed and she is in her kennel (which is in the corner by my side of the bed) and a cat attempts to come in and jump on the bed (note that the problem is only with me, not DH). What she does in this situation is barks and talks assertively. Ruff! Arrrrrrrraroo roo roo, obviously expressing frustration. This causes our older cat Al to backtrack and leave, although Nyxie ignores it and does as she pleases. If the cat leaves, she stops. If the cat doesn't, she continues with the intermittent vocalizing. Obviously she doesn't want the cat on the bed with me (because she isn't, or she sees herself as sleeping "with me" and doesn't want to share). How I have been dealing with this up to now is first telling her "leave it, no" (doesn't work), then putting a sheet over the kennel (doesn't work), and then getting up and walking her out without a word to sleep in the kennel in the back room (where she sleeps quietly). The intended message: if you can't act right in here, you can't sleep with us. But this isn't getting the message across apparently because she's still doing it after about four reps. One thing I've been thinking about doing after it happened again last night is dispensing with the first two steps and immediately walking her into the back room. I know I need to at least do that. The other thing I've considered is to give her the exact opposite of what she wants, which is to COMPLETELY ignore her behavior and let it trigger me getting up and getting the cat and BRINGING it into the room, LOUDLY paying attention to it. And only respond to Vala when she quiets. (Maybe not at all? Don't know about this.)

 

The second manifestation of this behavior is if she is in her kennel and she hears me giving attention to another animal outside the room. In that case she will bark once. Like, every time I say something to an animal. This just started this morning. First I saw Nyxie walking toward me and started looking at her and said, "Sit, Nyxie" (Nyxie sits). Vala barked once from the bedroom. DH told her to "hush." She did. Until I said "Good girl, Nyxie" at which point Vala barked again. And then I picked up Nyxie... And said good bye to Al as I was getting ready to leave for work. And everytime I made a sound to another animal, she'd bark once, and DH would tell her to hush. (I had put Vala back in her kennel after our usual 1.25 hour morning walk/jog because DH was asleep and she is not yet trustworthy with cats/ housetrained/needs constant supervision in the house right now.)

 

So, ideas and suggestions please: how have you taught your dogs that SHARING IS CARING?

 

---

 

*I use this word, not because I am trying to claim this is Official Border Collie Herding Behavior, but because I want to be clear there is no growling or barking or snarling or even lip curling - just a rush at them and a stare from a short distance to attempt to control their movements away. I am aware this qualifies as borderline aggression, but since she never tried to touch the cats and I've gotten her to stop I am very hopeful about fixing it.

 

** And yes, I know, part of the problem is I have to help her unlearn the behavior I unfortunately encouraged in her for a couple days. What can I say, you live, you learn. Anyway...

[juliepoudrier]

Re: the doxy, was she ever tested for tick-borne diseases? If not, her dramatic turnaround two days after being put on the doxy would imply that she might have had a TBD, which was also dragging her down. Even for dogs who test negative for TBDs, most vets familiar with them will consider such a dramatic change as evidence the dog was in fact infected. I don't know how long of a course of doxy you've got her on, but you may want to confer with your vet about leaving her on for a full standard course of treatment for TBDs.

 

J.

[pansmom]

I don't know how long of a course of doxy you've got her on, but you may want to confer with your vet about leaving her on for a full standard course of treatment for TBDs.

 

At least 30 days for this first round, I believe (although it may just be 14 - that's our next appointment to start the Heartgard), but she wasn't tested for TBDs as far as I remember reading in her vet records from the shelter and I didn't think to have her tested (she didn't present with any ticks on her), so I'll put a call in to Doc Carson about that. The difference is really noticeable. Thanks

[Shoofly]

My first thought was TBD when i read that too. I think i remember someone telling me that doxy is thought to have some anti-inflammatory properties as well.

[timberviewfarm]

At least 30 days for this first round, I believe (although it may just be 14 - that's our next appointment to start the Heartgard), but she wasn't tested for TBDs as far as I remember reading in her vet records from the shelter and I didn't think to have her tested (she didn't present with any ticks on her), so I'll put a call in to Doc Carson about that. The difference is really noticeable. Thanks

 

 

The latest protocol in heart worm treatment that includes the doxy to kill the bacteria now says to do 2 rounds of the doxy although most DVM's still tend to only do 1 round before starting any real treatment for the heartworms. Also don't know if your vet told you but it is best to keep any dog with an active case of heartworms quiet as the load on the heart because of the heartwoms is huge and even though the heartworms aren't dying and sloughing off yet (due to not treatment) extra activity paired with the load on the heart can cause damage. The doxy can also have some anti -inflamatory properties too it too. Sorry I have seen too many dogs go through heartworm treatment, including an 11 yo dog that I own!

[Maralynn]

I just would remove her from the situation for right now. Something else you might want to work on is teaching her calm default behaviors, then when she has those down solid, start asking for them in that sort of situation.

 

With Kipp, I taugh him to lay flat on the floor, head between his paws. It became his new way to beg. You could also teach he a "go to you place" command and ask for that in situation where she starts to demand, then reward her when she obeys. A 3x5 throw rug would probably work well for something like this. It will have to be taught seperately for a few weeks until she is really solid on it before asking her to do it in a more stimulating situation like you have with the cats.

[pansmom]

The latest protocol in heart worm treatment that includes the doxy to kill the bacteria now says to do 2 rounds of the doxy although most DVM's still tend to only do 1 round before starting any real treatment for the heartworms. Also don't know if your vet told you but it is best to keep any dog with an active case of heartworms quiet as the load on the heart because of the heartwoms is huge and even though the heartworms aren't dying and sloughing off yet (due to not treatment) extra activity paired with the load on the heart can cause damage. The doxy can also have some anti -inflamatory properties too it too. Sorry I have seen too many dogs go through heartworm treatment, including an 11 yo dog that I own!

 

When you say "2 rounds of the doxy" do you mean DC plain or DC with Heartgard or Ivermectin? My vet is doing DC first to go easy on Vala, and then after 2 weeks, he wants to give her her first Heartgard (no higher doses of Ivermectin than the preventative for collies), and then two months of the DC/Ivermectin combo treatment before we talk about starting the arsenic treatment. We talked about the plain DC/Iver cure but he is skeptical of it because he has a control group of ten dogs he started when the new research first came out and only one has been cured that way so far... Others, after six and eleven months respectively the owners got tired of getting heartworm+ results and went the traditional arsenic route.

 

I really trust him as he talks about just having gone to heartworm society conferences and also getting so excited about the new treatment but then being heartbroken as the average time it takes for the dog to be cured this route got longer and longer as further research was conducted: first they said a few months, then eleven months, then eighteen.... He told me about the National Heartworm Society web page and told me to read up further and then when we talked he offered to do whatever I decide but I asked him to give me advice to help Vala stay as safe as possible. That was when he offered to watch her for the day we give her her first Heartgard, so that he'd let me drop her off for free, and put her on a 15 minute timer to check her every fifteen minutes so if she goes into shock they can give her a cortizone shot ASAP. All he says is he doesn't want to wait too long to cure her, because he says Vala has enough microfilia (and enough symptoms, at least before the major coughing and lethargy stopped) to be a time bomb after too long if we don't treat her. I think he is being honest and concerned. He called me last weekend on Saturday after closing to talk about her and heartworm treatment strategies for half an hour.

 

I know a lot of people think the heartworm hype is a scam but in this part of the country, I had dogs die of it when I was a kid, multiple outside dogs, who were untreated because my parents were very laisezz faire about animals. Also there are people down here (like the volunteer coordinator at the shelter where I volunteer) whose animals have turned up heartworm positive even though they're getting preventative. There's this theory that the heartworm problem is so bad about here because the mosquitoes were left uncontrolled post-Katrina and Rita. So anyway I am hesitant to wait too long for her to get better on the DC/Heartgard cure. Has anyone on here had success with it?

 

Also, do I really have to keep her quiet pre-treatment and what does that mean? I asked Doc Carson about it and he specifically said I didn't have to worry about that on the DC alone.

[pansmom]

The latest protocol in heart worm treatment that includes the doxy to kill the bacteria now says to do 2 rounds of the doxy although most DVM's still tend to only do 1 round before starting any real treatment for the heartworms. Also don't know if your vet told you but it is best to keep any dog with an active case of heartworms quiet as the load on the heart because of the heartwoms is huge and even though the heartworms aren't dying and sloughing off yet (due to not treatment) extra activity paired with the load on the heart can cause damage. The doxy can also have some anti -inflamatory properties too it too. Sorry I have seen too many dogs go through heartworm treatment, including an 11 yo dog that I own!

 

When you say "2 rounds of the doxy" do you mean DC plain or DC with Heartgard or Ivermectin? My vet is doing DC first to go easy on Vala, and then after 2 weeks, he wants to give her her first Heartgard (no higher doses of Ivermectin than the preventative for collies), and then two months of the DC/Ivermectin combo treatment before we talk about starting the arsenic treatment. We talked about the plain DC/Iver cure but he is skeptical of it because he has a control group of ten dogs he started when the new research first came out and only one has been cured that way so far... Others, after six and eleven months respectively the owners got tired of getting heartworm+ results and the dogs not getting better and went the traditional route.

 

I really trust him as he talks about just having gone to heartworm society conferences and also getting so excited about the new treatment but then being heartbroken as the average time it takes for the dog to be cured this route got longer and longer as further research was conducted: first they said a few months, then eleven months, then eighteen.... He told me about the National Heartworm Society web page and told me to read up further and then when we talked he offered to do whatever I decide but I asked him to give me advice to help Vala stay as safe as possible. That was when he offered to watch her for the day we give her her first Heartgard, so that he'd let me drop her off for free, and put her on a 15 minute timer to check her every fifteen minutes so if she goes into shock they can give her a cortizone shot ASAP. All he says is he doesn't want to wait too long to cure her, because he says Vala has enough microfilia (and enough symptoms, at least before the major coughing and lethargy stopped) to be a time bomb after too long if we don't treat her. I think he is being honest and concerned. He called me last weekend on Saturday after closing to talk about her and heartworm treatment strategies for half an hour.

 

I know a lot of people think the heartworm hype is a scam but in this part of the country, I had dogs die of it when I was a kid, multiple outside dogs, who were untreated because my parents were very laisezz faire about animals. Also there are people down here (like the volunteer coordinator at the shelter where I volunteer) whose animals have turned up heartworm positive even though they're getting preventative. There's this theory that the heartworm problem is so bad about here because the mosquitoes were left uncontrolled post-Katrina and Rita. So anyway I am hesitant to wait too long for her to get better on the DC/Heartgard cure. Has anyone on here had success with it?

 

Also, do I really have to keep her quiet pre-treatment and what does that mean? I asked Doc Carson about it and he specifically said I didn't have to worry about that on the DC alone.

 

ETA: Oh and PS I am having some success using time out (not in a kennel but in the bathroom) to address the cat rushing/barking problem. And I realized she gets freaked out when I move my arms really fast up, causing her to bark, but I have already desensitized her to it slowly using an adaptation of Dr. Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol. (I just ignored her barking while DH silently held her leash and waited for her to calm down and then did the movement slowly at first then faster and faster while telling her she was a good girl. Now it doesn't bother her anymore. She rocks!)