Megs Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 HELP! I have a 1 year old border collie male, neutered. 3 months ago he had an op to remove damaged cartilage to his shoulder, he is 100% and now starting agility training, slowly. He is a great dog, been through odiedience, and socialised at our local dog club, he is great with other dogs. I have one problem though, when we are out on our walk he tends to run (at full speed) up to a oncoming person and either bark (usually if male, tall, wearing glasses and / or hat) if female, he will still run up to her but not bark and stop right in front of her, give a little smell and then come back to me. If I don't have his full attention before he runs off and I try call - he will not listen and not come back to me!! This is worring me and is dangerous as he shouldn't be doing this, he scares me and of course scares the living daylights out of the person or persons. I find that if they are quite calm and don't really take notice of him, he doesn't bother and comes back to me straight away. Now, in training or ball throwing or playing with his toy - someone can walk straight past him and he won't even take notice, if he turns his head to look I can tell him to "watch" and his focus is with me 100%. I am confident that I am "pack leader" and he sees me as such but if I really was then would he feel the need to do this? Am I missing something? Does he not see me as pack leader? Is this a younster thing. He also does this at home with strangers coming into the house and then once he "knows" them then he is their best friend. He showed signs of being quite fearful of men, especially large, tall etc when he was younger and we were working on this at the club, to proof him but then he was diagnosed with OCD and had his surgery which ment rest for about 2 months (house bound) and now we can only really start a bit of training again. I want to get rid of this behaviour before it sticks! Does anyone have some tips? Here is the "monster" himself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Is he showing fear signs before he goes up? (Ears back, looking off to the side frantically, licking lips, tail going down, etc?) If so, the first thing I'd do, to try to decrease the fear, is to stop as soon as I saw the trigger and start feeding him some kind of smackalicious doggie treat (peanut butter is incredibly helpful in how distracting it is to the dog), so he begins to reassociate the fear-source with smackalicious doggie treat. I'd give the dog the treat as soon as I saw the trigger, and then I'd keep his attention as the person passed with "watch me" (praising with eye contact) and then if he stayed focused on me and our work throughout I'd treat again. Try to keep him with you mentally by doing obedience work as you go to distract him and keep him confident as you pass the person or the person passes you. The goal is to make the dog reassociate trigger with opportunity for treat, and then once that happens you can start using "watch me" to remind the dog to look at you instead of the fear source. Also, I'd use a short leash (4' ish) on walks so he CAN'T practice the behavior no matter what. Anytime this fails, and he starts running off, tell him "leave it" in a calm tone right before he pulls himself on the short leash and then pull him back and tell him to sit and watch you and when he does treat/reward/praise (whatever works for him). And of course the first time he DOESN'T try to practice the behavior praise him like he's the BEST DOG EVER and reward him with something great (treats if your dog is into them). FYI: I don't buy into all that pack leader nonsense. Dogs aren't wolves. I had a veterinary behaviorist who thought it was useless. Works for normal dogs but not dogs with fear aggression (95% of aggression cases -- true dominance aggression is actually pretty rare). Others may disagree and have other advice, but this is what worked for my fear dog with this particular problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megs Posted September 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Thanks for replying, I was beginning to think no'one would hehe He does suffer from fear aggression, he is particularly terrified when visiting the vets - he has bitten the vet before as I can imagine it's this huge man towering over him - when I took him in to get neutered he was warning (growls and barks) at the vet but of course we had to give him the injection and I couldn't stop the wriggle worm motion and he bit the vet (bad enough - he had to get stiches) now the vet nurses (usually female at my vet) he has NO PROBLEM with at all and I normally tell them to just make friends ie - sweet talking and friendly praise which he responds to well. On the other hand when we visited the specialist he didn't even growl at him once, all I said to the vet was just make friends and he spoke to him and I think Chaos (my dogs name) realised that he wasn't a threat. The vet nurse seems to think he is extremely protective over me? On walking, he doesn't particularly seem fearful, he does show tail down and ears back but is dead on target looking at the unsspecting "victim" but then again I am fearful and full of nerves becuase I am just waiting for him to try and run off - now resorted to keep him on lead when there are people about. I know I shouldn't be fearful or tense but I can't help it, I want my walk with him to be fun and pleasent but sometimes he gets me super tense and then its' no fun anymore. I want to put the fun for both of us back into walks..... My other female collie mix is fantastic, she is ancient though, about 12 now, however she can set him off by barking to say hello at the person and then he immediatly reacts....??? He is SUPER sensitive. I do keep him on a short lead at the moment because he is VERY strong but he does listen well - believe it or not - it's just that when that focus is lost and he is on at full speed to that person I can't get him back, he will not listen. BUT I haven't ever walked with treats or his ball - he responds better to his ball - completely ball mad and will forgot that the world exists when I have it in my hand or anyone for that matter. Im going to try the new walking method tonight - thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 What your dogs name? His name is as important to him and others as it is to you. When it comes to BCs as a handler you have to watch your dog in public and learn the body languiage for unacceptable behavior and head it off. I suggest you start with a new vet, a female one. I had proglems with one BC until I did. As for large men, hats and suchdon't let him approach them at all. Either do a u turn away from the problem or have him sit while you feed him treats until the problem goes away. Teach (dogs name) to sit and wait for visitors as he's approached. Never let visitors approach your dog from above his head, always from below the chin. Coming in from above is a sign of aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 On walking, he doesn't particularly seem fearful, he does show tail down and ears back but is dead on target looking at the unsspecting "victim" but then again I am fearful and full of nerves becuase I am just waiting for him to try and run off - now resorted to keep him on lead when there are people about. I know I shouldn't be fearful or tense but I can't help it, I want my walk with him to be fun and pleasent but sometimes he gets me super tense and then its' no fun anymore. I want to put the fun for both of us back into walks..... Welcome! A couple of things....if his tail is down on walks, I wouldn't necessarily let that be a sign of fear. Lots of border collies have their tails down when they are focused on something, mine always has hers down when we're on walks. If it's tucked between his legs, then that would likely be a fearful position. Pay more attention to his face (if you can) eyes wide, mouth tight, tons of licking. That will show if he's nervous. Turid Rugaas has a good book on canine body language. You'd be surprised how much you can pick up once you know what to look for! She also has a good one on barking for that matter...in reference to your other thread. Also, if you are nervous on walks, those feelings are going straight down the lead to your dog! Seriously! I know it's human nature to tighten grip on the lead or whatever when you start getting nervous, but it seems to make reactions that much worse! Try singing a happy song under your breath when you start getting nervous. It will keep you breathing....we also tend to hold our breath when anticipating something! Another good thing I learned was that if you are having a hard time with tightening your grip on the leash etc. loop the lead around your wrist and stick your hand in your pocket! Seems to keep everything neutral! I'd also work on an "about face". If you see something or someone coming towards you that is a trigger, just stop say "this way" in a happy voice and turn and walk the other direction. When you are working with him to desens. him to his triggers, remember to stay far enough away so that he doesn't go over his threshold and freak out anyway. The key is to keep the trigger at a far enough distance so that the dog CAN focus on you. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Is he on a leash on walks? That will at least fix the frightening people problem by running off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquilis Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 What Daisy said about nervousness being felt at the other end of the lead is dead-on. Whatever you're displaying, your dog will feel, and will change his reactions accordingly. If you move like you're in charge, he'll relax, feeling that he doesn't need to be on the lookout. If you're showing nervousness, he'll be tense, looking for the threat that must obviously be nearby. It will never occur to him that your nerves are related to your fears and expectations of his behavior. I would continue to seriously work on his recall, until you can call him off a squirrel that looks like a tennis ball made of steak that smells like a bitch in heat. Watch him, and look around, watching for the kinds of distractions (people) that cause problems. When you see a distraction, watch him even more closely - As soon as you see the least sign of him even thinking of breaking for the distraction (person), redirect him - get him to look at you. Give him a command, engage him, and keep him focussed on you. With Suka, I use the 'sit' command. I hold her in the sit until the distraction is either gone, or until she relaxes. Well, I don't actually have this problem any more, so I don't do it often. Mostly, I do it when she shows anxiety, now. Anyway, the point is - You want to replace the objectional behavior with an acceptable behavior, until the distraction or situation becomes so mundane as to be unnoticed by your dog. But you want to catch him right as the behavior is beginning to form in his head as often as possible. Disclaimer: I'm not a trainer - I just play one at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedismom Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I would continue to seriously work on his recall, until you can call him off a squirrel that looks like a tennis ball made of steak that smells like a bitch in heat. Love that! You give excellent advice too. Megs, Just wanted to say that your dog is GORGEOUS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquilis Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Love that! You give excellent advice too. My dogs have trained me well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megs Posted September 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 My dogs name is Chaos and rightly so, it seems I named him well Thanks for everyone's answers, it helps alot! I understand how to prevent the problem and work on it but how do we eventually confront the problem? I mean I can't just keep turning away from strange men cause Chaos will bark and be frightend by them, I eventually have to face this? So is this just the first steps and then eventually he will associate men and all strangers with happy yummy food treats and not bother barking at them? I know I shouldn't be tense and I know that Chaos can feel this too but it's hard not too, I think the singing might help, thanks Chaos loves it when I sing and dance, he gets SO excited and watches me, trying to "dance" with and listens to me intently when singing He has been through obiedience BUT I still seem to have a MAJOR problem with him pulling on walks too, he is super strong, I mean I can control him and with a stern voice he will listen when on lead but this is something that is probably the most annoying, it hurts when he pulls. I am working on saying "come" and then changing direction, works really well and he eventually follows me but still, when walking my two dogs - he is back to pulling me off my feet. Im going to get a NEW vet - A female one, I think thats the best idea. Should I ever shout at him and say "no" when he runs off to people and doesn't listen or will this just make the situation worse because I am shouting and he thinks something is wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megs Posted September 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Megs, Just wanted to say that your dog is GORGEOUS! THANK YOU he is my amazing beautiful boy!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Who is papillon person? That was a stupid comment. Sorry, it's hard to read if he's on a leash or not in your original post. All you said was he was running off so I assumed he wasn't. Never mind though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Megs, it will eventually get better with Chaos. He'll start turning to you when he sees a Big Scary Thing. When he is consistently turning to you with a happy look, you can choose from a few different options, depending on the circumstances. You might choose to keep walking, keeping his focus on you. This would work if there's only one BST and enough room to perhaps curve around the person while you walk. On a narrow path, you might choose to step off the path w/Chaos, ask him to sit, and then ask him to do something - give a paw, touch your hand with his nose, turn around in a tight circle - or just keep his focus on you. You might be able to find a friend who can dress up as a BST, and practice w/that person, walking by several times and curving closer, each time keeping Chaos' focus on you. There's a lot of different ways to proceed. You'll want to take the next steps when Chaos is really good at the first step. You're re-wiring the connections in his brain. If you're not already, work w/him on his own, without your other dog, as much as you can. And you can also ask a friend that Chaos already knows and likes to come to your home and put on a big floppy hat in front of Chaos, and do these same sorts of exercises at home and in your yard first, then take it on the road. Good luck, and let us know how you get on. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megs Posted September 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Sorry, it's hard to read if he's on a leash or not in your original post. All you said was he was running off so I assumed he wasn't. Never mind though. Apologies, I never ment to be rude - it was just that you had a very strange reply to my very real problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedismom Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Apologies, I never ment to be rude - it was just that you had a very strange reply to my very real problem? Hi Megs, Let me try to explain since there seems to be a misunderstanding. Some of the things you've written make it sound like you have Chaos off leash when you're walking. For example, when you say he runs off and scares people and doesn't listen when you try to call him back. Some of the things you've written make it sound like he is on leash. For example, when you describe the way he pulls. Perhaps you do both. All we're saying is, until you can call him and he will reliably come back to you every time, he should always be on a leash. It can be a long leash if you're hiking somewhere where there aren't alot of people. That way, he won't be scaring innocent people, and won't be able to practice not listening to you because you'll be able to control him until he's trained. I hope we're clear now. Georgia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Thanks for everyone's answers, it helps alot! I understand how to prevent the problem and work on it but how do we eventually confront the problem? I mean I can't just keep turning away from strange men cause Chaos will bark and be frightend by them, I eventually have to face this? So is this just the first steps and then eventually he will associate men and all strangers with happy yummy food treats and not bother barking at them? Eventually you will be able to get to the point where he will automatically remain calm or offer a default behaviour when he sees his trigger. There is a book by Pam Dennison called "How to right a dog gone wrong". In this book it gives training scenarios on how to desensitize your dog to it's triggers. I highly recommend this book. It will give you a more step by step approach on how to confront Chaos's fears. I know I shouldn't be tense and I know that Chaos can feel this too but it's hard not too, I think the singing might help, thanks Chaos loves it when I sing and dance, he gets SO excited and watches me, trying to "dance" with and listens to me intently when singing This will help a lot! If he's totally keen on you singing...that may just be your ticked to keeping him (and you) calm when triggers are present. He has been through obiedience BUT I still seem to have a MAJOR problem with him pulling on walks too, he is super strong, I mean I can control him and with a stern voice he will listen when on lead but this is something that is probably the most annoying, it hurts when he pulls. I am working on saying "come" and then changing direction, works really well and he eventually follows me but still, when walking my two dogs - he is back to pulling me off my feet. Obedience classes are fine, but if you can afford it I would suggest finding a positive trainer in your area and taking a specific "Loose Leash walking" class and a recall class! I know classes can be pricey, but having a rock solid recall is the safest thing in the world. The loose leash walking will save your shoulders and arms. In the mean time, have you ever thought of using a head halter or a harness. They help considerably. Use it day to day and work on loose leash walking in your house first, then in the back yard then out and about. The best way I've found to practice this is to put a dish of treats at the end of my hall way, put the dog on leash at the other end of the hallway and start walking towards to food. The second the dog starts pulling for the food, say "Ooops" (or something) and turn and walk back. Once the dog is focused on you agian, you can turn around and start walking towards to food again. I think only a few reps of this and most dogs clue in..."if I pull, I get taken away from food". That is seriously no fun for them! Should I ever shout at him and say "no" when he runs off to people and doesn't listen or will this just make the situation worse because I am shouting and he thinks something is wrong? Never yell. Especially if the dog is barking. They seem to think that just means for them to bark louder. The best response to this would be to teach a solid "leave-it", recall and/or "wait" command. My dog has all 3 of these and I can successfully use them in multiple situations. Leave-it is great for mystery food on the side of the road and squirrels and other dogs (that she won't like anyway) etc. I use wait instead of stay because I seldom make my dog stay unconditionally in one spot. She knows it, but we don't use it. Wait is better (for us) because she always gets released from a wait. It's like her pause button. If I say wait, she will stop or slow down. Great for getting in and out of the car with a load of dog food and dogs! If I am working with a foster dog and she's getting ancy because she wants treats too, I will put her in a down and make her wait until it's her turn. The recall is just universal. I feel safe that wherever I take my dog I can give her her recall word and she will come flying at me with full force. Even if I can't see her. Hope this helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 I can't echo Georgia's comment enough. I too thought you were describing your dog being off leash. If he is, putting a lead or long line really would fix half your serious problem and would stop that issue from continuing to get worse. I have close friends who were attacked by dogs as children and it would *terrify* at least one of them if an off leash dog came up and started barking at them because they were wearing glasses. From a training perspective, you have asked too much from the dog and allowed it to fail and self reinforce, while possibly causing someone else real mental stress. So leash needed there while you train a recall (if this is indeed what's going on). If Chaos is on leash in these scenarios, I don't understand why "he won't come back to you" - is he lunging at the end of the leash or something? If you explain better what the real issue is you might get more suggestions. Welcome to the boards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 I can't echo Georgia's comment enough. I too thought you were describing your dog being off leash. If he is, putting a lead or long line really would fix half your serious problem and would stop that issue from continuing to get worse. I have close friends who were attacked by dogs as children and it would *terrify* at least one of them if an off leash dog came up and started barking at them because they were wearing glasses. From a training perspective, you have asked too much from the dog and allowed it to fail and self reinforce, while possibly causing someone else real mental stress. So leash needed there while you train a recall (if this is indeed what's going on). If Chaos is on leash in these scenarios, I don't understand why "he won't come back to you" - is he lunging at the end of the leash or something? If you explain better what the real issue is you might get more suggestions. Welcome to the boards, You two both explained what I was trying to get at with the leash comment. I was in no way trying to be rude, just clarifying since much of the post sounded like he is off leash. You two have given great advice though so I don't really have anything else to add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Oh, don't worry, Lauren. YOU weren't rude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinKate Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 The dog can't be on a lead if he is "running full speed up to oncoming people", or "runs off, doesn't listen and won't come back to me." I would have said the same "stupid comment"--put the dog on a leash, problem solved. Don't worry Lauren, I'm stupid too! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megs Posted September 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 The dog can't be on a lead if he is "running full speed up to oncoming people", or "runs off, doesn't listen and won't come back to me." I would have said the same "stupid comment"--put the dog on a leash, problem solved. Don't worry Lauren, I'm stupid too! lol thanks,i feel really bad now and did apologise.wont be posting again as it seems i have offended more than made friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejano Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 THANK YOU he is my amazing beautiful boy!!! Nothing to add, except that he is beautiful -- looks like my Robin, except Robin has those golden eyebrows and gold around his mutton chops...I originally named him "Robin Goodfellow" - a mischievous imp in Celtic folklore because he just looked like trouble the moment he opened his eyes, but then decided after watching him run back to me on a recall that he was "Robin Come Bobbin'" -- Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquilis Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 thanks,i feel really bad now and did apologise.wont be posting again as it seems i have offended more than made friends. I'd rather you didn't go away. I believe some people have over-reacted here, but I don't think it's a normal characteristic of the board. Sometimes, people forget to consider how their words might be taken by others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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