Herding behavior?

[pansmom]

Vala is getting more self-confident and active by the day, and one of the things she's been doing from the beginning is anytime I give the cats a command, she rushes in from wherever she is (often her kennel, though she's spending less and less time in there - as she gains confidence around the cats and recovers from her intestinal worms and KC) to come help. Here's a typical scenario. Cat jumps up on counter. I see cat, say, "Off, Nyxer." Vala comes skittering in from the bedroom where her kennel is to circle the island counter and give the cat the eye and intimidate her into jumping down. Vala's instinct seems to be to want to help me accomplish my task, and also to get the cat to follow the rules. However, it was also clear that she was really nervous about doing this because she was scared of Nyxer (her hackles were raised, and often as she circled, looking at Nyxer, she would whimper a little--as if she felt this very strong instinct to help but didn't know what to do or how safe it was to help.) While I have never seen a BC herd in person, it's pretty clear to me that she thinks she's working when she does this. She is crouched, focused, tail between her legs slightly, etc.

 

At first, I told her to "leave it," anytime she paid attention to either of the cats, including this scenario, and that would work - she is extremely obedient and easy to call off a task. But I realized that in this particular situation, which is somewhat confrontational between me and the cat, because after I tell her to leave it I am still focused on confronting the cat, this pattern was reinforcing her fear of the cats (because she so strongly wanted to help but felt insecure). So a couple days ago when she eventually got to the point where this was the *only* time she would herd the cats and was 100% on her "leave it" with regard to them in all situations, I decided in this particular scenario and only this particular scenario, to allow Vala to help me and herd Nyxer off the counter.

 

So now this is how the scenario goes. Nyxer jumps on counter. I say, "Off, Nyxer." Vala comes running from the other room or a corner. Her hackles are slightly raised but not like before (she's much calmer and more confident). She runs around the counter, barks once at the cat, and the cat jumps down. I say, "Good Nyxie, good Vala," and call Vala to me to pet her and praise her for being brave and helpful at which point she acts *really* proud. Side effects of repeating this pattern seem to be increased confidence for Vala around both of the cats, but especially Nyxie, and Vala and Nyxie can actually touch noses now and calmly interact without Nyxie swatting at Vala.

 

I think my instinct to try to increase her self-confidence in the house has worked - she's coming out of the kennel so much more now - with only say 2-3 reps of this incident a day. Before she was so skittish around the cats. No aggression, but just spooking constantly, hesitance, rushing back to kennel. So I think it's helping her, and Nyxie doesn't really seem to mind, but I have never handled this before - though I think it's incredibly precious how helpful Vala wants to be in this scenario - but I'm not sure about how I'm handling it. Thoughts?

[Journey]

Not sure where to even start...Have you read any of the threads about dogs & cats? What she is doing is not herding the cat. It's prey drive, improper nonetheless. Why are you encouraging it? One day something will happen and one of them will be hurt. Quite frankly it's none of her business what is going on between you and the cat, you don't need her help, the cat doesn't need the harassment and you are encouraging bad behavior. What if you don't keep her and the next home is told she's great with cats, and then she kills it? I think you were on the right track with the "leave it" why muck it up with allowing and encouraging her to harass the cat? It's not building confidence, it's jazzing her up is all. And please, it is not herding!

 

[Lenajo]

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO

 

got it?

[juliepoudrier]

^^ What they said. You (and especially the cat) run a huge risk by encouraging Vala in her behavior. She may decide the cat needs to be controlled at other times and when you're not around, much to the detriment of the cat. Personally I don't mind if a dog has a healthy fear of/respect for a cat. The cat is much safer that way and it certainly doesn't adversely affect the dog. Not to mention that while you think you're teaching Vala not to be afraid of the cat, you are most certainly teaching the cat that she should be afraid of the dog, and IMO that's just wrong--the cat was there first and deserves to be allowed to live in peace without harrassment from a dog.

 

J.

[AllieMackie]

First off, let me tell you that most of your dog's behaviours are not herding behaviours, even if they may seem as such. Now that I've actually herded with my dog, I realize that a lot of the things I thought he was doing instinctually for herding, well... he wasn't. He's just being a dog, with perhaps an extra crouch or a bit of extra staring, which is hardly herding behaviour, just bred-in traits.

 

I second what Journey said. The "leave it" is good, but why ask her to help "work" on getting your cat off of counters and such? How is that herding behaviour in the least? Promoting intimidation is potentially dangerous for both of you, and not the correct way to build your dog's confidence with a cat. The crouching and staring, I know too well. When Finn was first getting used to our cat, he would to the same if she was on higher ground - only to chase her down into a corner and keep her there until I pulled him off of her.

 

Finn loves our cat now. They actually enjoy each other's company and they play very well together, but his impulsiveness still leads me to keep one eye on them at all times, and they are seperated when not supervised, as Finn still gets carried away sometimes. It took a month of conditioning him properly to the cat through praise, treats, tethering him to me, and letting the two interact under very close supervision. Even now I provide him with feedback regularily - any obsessiveness over the cat is heavily frowned upon, and he's getting better every day.

 

You definitely want to dissuade Vala from "helping" you, without teaching her that the cat = scary more than she might already think. Treat her for politely visiting the cat, or allowing the cat to visit her. If she shows relaxed interest in teh cat, treat and praise. Focus on praising her for POSITIVE interaction with the cat, and not negative attention like the behaviours when the cat is on the counter.

 

Hope that helps.

[Dixie_Girl]

The rule in my house is that the cats are totally untouchable. While it may seem unfair to "humans", Sammy was NEVER to be harrassed in any shape or form. The dogs all learned right away that Sammy was "higher" than them on the scale. Sammy liked to rummage in the dog food now and again, and the dogs were taught to leave him alone. The reason is simply because in a dog/cat fight, the dog is usually going to win. Vala needs to learn to leave the cats alone no matter what is going on. It won't hurt Vala's confidence at all, in fact, KNOWING what the rules and regulations are actually helps build confidence in a dog, IMO. When they know what to expect and what is expected of them, it takes the worry out of them as to whether what they are doing is right or not. A dog with low confidence, never knows if what he is doing is right or not. The cats will also gain more confidence around Vala when the see that she is not going to harrass them. Good luck to you, and I know you will do good with her.

[PSmitty]

I'm glad to hear Vala's confidence is improving and she's settling in to your home. However, I can't "ditto" the above advice enough! I would not allow her to do what you describe, at all.

 

I have one dog (not a BC) who thinks it's her job to boss cats around. She is told, every single time, to mind her own business and leave the cats alone. I trust her with them, regardless, but you can't have that kind of trust with Vala. Not now, and maybe not ever, if she is allowed to engage in the behavior you described. Just keep up with the "leave it" and she'll catch on.

[AllieMackie]

Vala needs to learn to leave the cats alone no matter what is going on. It won't hurt Vala's confidence at all, in fact, KNOWING what the rules and regulations are actually helps build confidence in a dog, IMO. When they know what to expect and what is expected of them, it takes the worry out of them as to whether what they are doing is right or not. A dog with low confidence, never knows if what he is doing is right or not. The cats will also gain more confidence around Vala when the see that she is not going to harrass them. Good luck to you, and I know you will do good with her.

 

This is a very true point. In opposition to what I said before, it is probably in your best interest to teach Vala "this is a cat, and you are to leave it be."

[pansmom]

OK! No problem! This is something I've only allowed for a couple of days. She just wasn't coming out of her kennel much at all before and I was glad to have her out. And she was keeping a distance between herself and the cat, not actually trying to touch it, and stopping immediately when the cat jumped down. So it really seemed like she was just trying to help. But I'll just go back to telling her to "leave it" and getting between them. I was worried about her generalizing and thinking this was okay in other situations too. So no problem. Although we are keeping her, Journey, and there's no need to use the bang your head against the screen icon - even if I'm being stereotypically annoying. I'm asking questions because I know I need advice.

[Carson Crazies]

Another thing to think about is that when she gets a. over the honeymoon phase and b. over the heartworms etc., you may have a bit more dog on your hands than you do now. So definately it's good to be consistent and careful with what you allow now so that you don't have a bigger fight on your hands when she starts feeling her oats.

[Ooky]

Sympathy here, as I understand what you mean - it does seem like they could be helpful. But they really can't. Remember as she gains confidence she's likely to escalate. I really don't like the description of raised hackles or barking - if Odin ever did that to my cat I'd pay attention immediately and get on his butt (probably a lot harder than you can or should be with Vala right now). Really, NO prey drive towards small animals of any kind is allowed.

 

If you want to get them used to one another (once you have some training on her and can trust her), one thing I do it play in turns with fishing line toys, one for benway and one for Odin. I pick up Benway's toy (always I do the cat first) and put Odin in a down stay. He can watch us play for a minute or two, but cannot get up. Then, I praise him, and the cat watches us as I play with Odin and his fishing toy. The whole point, imo, is trying to get her to see the cats as animals to either interact WITH (not react TO), or else, just ignore. And that I value the cat just as much as him.

 

I also had free range rats with my cats in my 20s. The cats and rats were not friends. The cats were actually pretty wary of the rats, and it was much better that way. I would have liked everyine to be friends, but safety and piece of mind are a good alternative. Total ignoring and even some fear from Vala would be way better than prey drive of any kind, in my book. Anyway, glad you checked in, you can now nip it in the bud, so to speak.

 

ETA: Sorry - don't mean to keep hammering - I just saw your last post! Hang in there

[pansmom]

ETA: Sorry - don't mean to keep hammering - I just saw your last post! Hang in there

 

Thanks Ooky, no problem, I appreciate you being so understanding and polite, as you offered opposing advice.

[Root Beer]

As usual, my approach is a little different, but I figure I'll throw it out there for you to consider along with everything else.

 

I went through something like this with Dean. If my husband and I hugged or if I showed affection to one of the other dogs, he would either start to bark like mad or he would jump on one of the other dogs.

 

To work him through it, I taught him a really solid sit-stay with a high rate of reward. Once he had that down, I put him in his sit-stay and would just pet one of the other dogs for a few seconds - reward both, pet the other dog - reward both, etc. It didn't take long for him to be able to hold the stay while I interacted with the other dog. Through that process he learned that his job when I interact with the other dogs (or human) is to mind his business. Once he got that, I didn't need to ask for the sit-stay.

 

For management when I wasn't working with him, he was shut up in the bedroom if I interacted with another dog (or human) and he went off. I was very matter of fact about it, but he learned pretty quickly that if he went off when I showed attention to another dog, he was going in the bedroom. He actually got to a point where he would run for that bedroom at times when that situation arose!!

 

If I had cats (which will never happen in a million years), that would be the first thing that I would try. I wouldn't just put up with the behavior or let the dog do whatever he wants, but I would develop a very systematic way to teach him what I want and then do the training.

 

Again, a bit of a different approach. If there's something in there that's helpful to you, excellent!!

[juliepoudrier]

Kristine,

I think you often give good advice, so don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly believe that in situations where another life could be at stake, and a cat can very easily be killed with one well-placed bite from a dog, it makes the most sense to use a correction like "leave it" for the safety of the other animal. A human generally can't react faster than a dog (or cat) and I'm afraid that something bad could happen while working on a systematic reward-based approach. Just my opinion though.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

I don't like the reward based approach here because it creates value to the dog. Once you have it in the dog's head that the cat is important/valuable it becomes even more of a focus. Usually in a negative manner.

 

 

 

Kristine,

I think you often give good advice, so don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly believe that in situations where another life could be at stake, and a cat can very easily be killed with one well-placed bite from a dog, it makes the most sense to use a correction like "leave it" for the safety of the other animal. A human generally can't react faster than a dog (or cat) and I'm afraid that something bad could happen while working on a systematic reward-based approach. Just my opinion though.

 

J.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I don't have any advice to offer, but I do know how annoying this habit can become! Not the same situation, but close. Daisy (my dog) is a bit of a bossy pants to say the least. When I have foster dogs and I call their names, if they don't come right away, Daisy figures it's her duty to tell them off. She runs to the room said dog is in and barks at it. Irritating as hell. Especially when the foster dog is incredibly submissive to other dogs. Daisy is in "wait" and "leave-it" boot camp right now and the foster dog is in "recall" boot camp.

[juliepoudrier]

I never finished out my thought to Kristine because I had to run out on an errand. The point I wanted to make is that when yoou were changing Dean's behavior you were dealing with a behavior associated with positive actions on your part; that is, you were doing something nice, hugging your husband or paying attention to another dog. In Mary's case, Vala is reacting when Mary *corrects* the cat. In order to replicate your method, she'd have to be repeatedly correcting the cat while Vala sat calmly by recieving treats. I don't see how it would be possible to set that up without creating a problem for the cat (i.e., repeatedly putting the cat in a position to be corrected, which isn't exactly fair to the cat). It's not as if Vala is reacting when Mary pets or loves on the cat, which would be the equivalent of the situation you describe with Dean.

 

J.

[pansmom]

It's not as if Vala is reacting when Mary pets or loves on the cat, which would be the equivalent of the situation you describe with Dean.

 

Yes, that already happened - Vala tried to guard me from the cat, like hey, my human - and I used something similar to what Kristine described to make Vala stop. (Throw Vala treat when I pet Nyxie, pet Nyxie, pet Vala, take turns, praise Vala for staying and watching me pet, etc.) She doesn't do that as much anymore (though I admit I do have to tell her "no, leave it" on occasion - but she always listens). I hope that reward-based training didn't imbue the cat with "value" and cause this to start. I had to do that almost straight off. Anyway, of course it wouldn't be fair to set Nyxie up to fail, in this situation, over and over! Next time I get ready to call Nyxie off the counter, I am going to have to get ready to get between them and tell Vala "leave it, no" in a very serious voice. We'll see how that goes. Ten to one she hurries back to her kennel. She seems to be housetrained now - going and whining at the door when she has to go - after I caught her in the act only once. She really seems to want to please me pretty badly. I am so lucky about that.

 

Do y'all think squirrel chasing is a problem too? There is a large treed field/park in our neighborhood and while I use a short 4' lead on the street, in the park this morning I transferred her for the first time to a retractable leash so she can enjoy and explore more (since it will be a looooong time before I trust her enough to let her loose anywhere other than our back yard, I was transferring to the retractable so she could run more). But in the morning (before she eats on our 6-7 am walk) when she sees a squirrel she goes bonkers - it's different from what she is doing with Nyxie, much more obviously hunting, she's crouching way low to the ground and zigzagging toward the squirrel with her head low, sneaking, almost like a cat. What I've been doing in this situation from the beginning is saying "leave it," when she saw a squirrel, and she would pull on the short leash and realize she couldn't go and stop. With the retractable, this morning, once I told her "leave it," gave her time to comply, and then pushed the button on the retractable so she was forced to obey. After pulling herself once, and stopping and getting praise then turning and coming back and getting more praise at my side, she seems to understand that the retractable in the park doesn't mean you can just run free, and for the rest of the morning she stayed by me unless I told her to go check something out and always came back when I told her "leave it, come." Again, I am only using the retractable in the park and at the push of a button I can stop her from running, and even in the park when there are no squirrels she is always at my side. Her walk is excellent. She is always making eye contact and smiling, very polite, constantly "with me" mentally, paying attention to hand guidance, commands, "watch me," etc. It's just the squirrels. I get the feeling she may have caught and eaten squirrel before. This didn't worry me though because in my head squirrels and cats are sooo different and she seems to treat them differently too. But I guess I should be worried until all small-animal prey behavior stops? (Don't worry, she is not loose in the house when we aren't home! Won't be for a while!)

[Shetlander]

In Mary's case, Vala is reacting when Mary *corrects* the cat.

 

I think that is a really important point in the discussion. Not that a rewards approach can't work here in the right hands (which probably aren't mine) but that there is a very different dynamic involved when the dog is responding to the cat being "bad." I have to really keep on top of Quinn who sometimes thinks he gets to tell the other dogs where they can go and what they can do. I won't tolerate any of them thinking they're in charge of the others' behaviors. And I do correct him with a leave it, lie down or brief scold, depending on the situation.

 

Now, completely different situation, my Lhasa is an attention hog and can be counted to horn in when I pet the other dogs. I like Kristine's approach for that sort of thing and think I'll try it with him. This line of training has worked very well with him in the past.

[Anda]

No advice on the cat issue - but be careful trying to stop Vala from a high speed chase after a squirrel with pushing the button on the retractable leash. I know what I am talking about - I use a flexi leash on my dog and have been yanked pretty hard when he builds momentum. There was one incident where I allowed him to run back and forth along a fence where another dog was - they were both playing and goofying around, and when I saw that he was getting too excited and closer to a street, I pressed the button to shorten the leash. That was when I found myself airborne and ended up in a bush and mud, dressed for work and while the other dog's owner was looking at me

 

There are many bunnies and few squirrels where we live - and the temptation is huge for him to stalk the bunnies. But after he ran after one once and got out of the enclosure where he was off leash, I realized what a dangerous thing this is. He now cuts it off if I tell him "leave it" or "no bunny stalking", but still steals a few looks, which is ok. We're to the point that if he's off leash on the field where we're playing, and a bunny bounces from under the grass where he was hidding and starts in front of him I can easily tell him not to even think about it and he doesn't . Same with squirrels - he loves playing imaginary squirrel hunt, but if there's an actual squirrel, I make sure he doesn't actually have the opportunity to chase it - either he's on leash and I stop him as soon as he starts thinking about chasing, or I call him off before the chase begins.

 

Flexi leashes are great, but be careful about the momentum the dog can build - I speak from experience - if she bolts out of a sudden, is better to drop the leash then to hold on to it - the handle bouncing behind her and your command to stop should be enough to get her to turn around and wait for you - better than having your shoulder dislocated

[Root Beer]

Kristine,

I think you often give good advice, so don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly believe that in situations where another life could be at stake, and a cat can very easily be killed with one well-placed bite from a dog, it makes the most sense to use a correction like "leave it" for the safety of the other animal. A human generally can't react faster than a dog (or cat) and I'm afraid that something bad could happen while working on a systematic reward-based approach. Just my opinion though.

 

J.

 

Using a "leave it" certainly fits in with a reward based approach if it is a directive (ex. - turn your attention elsewhere).

 

I'll use a "leave it" for management where appropriate.

 

I don't expect saying "leave it" over and over to teach the dog anything, though, other than to "leave it" when I cue a "leave it". So, in a case like this, I might use "leave it" for management where necessary, but I would use a systematic reward-based approach to do the training.

 

Like I said - different approach, food for thought. I know most won't agree, but I do think it's important to do some serious consideration of as many options as possible.

[Shetlander]

Yes, that already happened - Vala tried to guard me from the cat, like hey, my human

 

I think it is very good you've taken the time to reconsider Vala's behavior when you correct the cat if there is also that type of resource guarding in the picture. Going back to Kristine's comment on managing RG by putting Dean in another room, I try to be very consistent in making sure that any resource guarding results in the dog losing what he hoped to control (lap, food, attention, etc.) My dogs are never so tolerant with each other than when I am handing out treats, the more primo the more easy going they are with jostling and being pressed up against each other.

 

For the squirrels, I'd vote to train her out of that now. Why run the risk of her becoming a hard core squirrel chaser? That could put her at risk when she is off leash. I don't know about eating squirrels. My experience with them and dogs is there is a long standing enmity between the species going back to prehistoric times. Squirrels love to tease and most dogs can't resist the bait.

 

A book I've used with much success is Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. It's marketed for aggressive dogs, but works with all kinds of unwanted behaviors and is a great primer for clicker training.

[Root Beer]

A book I've used with much success is Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. It's marketed for aggressive dogs, but works with all kinds of unwanted behaviors and is a great primer for clicker training.

 

I was thinking to make this recommendation myself.

 

I really think you would like Click to Calm and find it useful with Vala in many ways. You don't need any major clicker skills to use Click to Calm - it's very basic and user friendly.

 

Ms. Parsons does address Resource Guarding in the book.

[RoseAmy]

Not going to rehash the fact that you are setting the stage for the cat to become dinner.

 

Just teach your dog to LEAVE IT. I honestly don't understand this throwing treats and clickering thing. When I head out with five dogs in tow I'm doing good to remember my name let alone arm myself with treats and clicker and whatever.

 

My relationship with my dogs is based on love and respect AND I am the human they are the dog..I have a level of behavior I expect out them, rules they must live by. Because that is what I expect they do it.

 

If I want to give my dog a treat I do but for no other reason then I love my dog and wanted to share something with them.

 

Suppose your dog isn't hungry or into food? What happens if you run out of treats..Today a sit is worth one cookie tomorrow two.

[Maralynn]

No cats, no squirrels, no sheep, no rabbits, no deer, my dogs are allowed to chase/eye NOTHING on their own terms.

 

It all becomes highly annoying/dangerous very quickly. Kipp was allowed to obsess over cats in his first home. It took 2 years to get him to the point where he'd ignore a cat if I had him engaged in another activity. He still tries to eye/stalk the cat if they're in the same room together so I avoid that senario as much as possible. It is highly annoying...

 

Get Vala interested in toys as an outlet for her drive - you want her engaging with you for mental stimulation and an outlet for her prey drive. I would look at walks as training time right now - not exercise or roam around time. They pick up on things fast and you need to stay 2 steps ahead of her to cut off undesired behaviors/ teach desired ones. You want to shape her attitude that when you're out and about you're doing something together, training, frisbee, ball - avoid giving her an opportunit to get excited about the squirrels.