mrsmartin Posted August 30, 2009 Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 Hi. I have a question regarding genetics/color. I am a complete dunce in this department. A few weeks ago I got a tri colored bc pup. He is now 10 weeks old. His mom is red/white (the breeder called her blonde/white) and his dad is black/white. My question is can this color combination from the parents produce tri colored pups? I was always under the impression that both parents had to be tri colored in order to produce tri colored pups, but as I said before genetics isn't one of my good points. The litter consisted of 6 pups. 2 being tri colored and the others were black/white. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hey_jude Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 It looks like the Dad has a gold 'masking gene' on him which as far as I understand, hides his true colors. My little guy's father is gold as well- but as you can see frm my avatar, Jude is tri colored (and actually a sable as well). So yes it is definitely possible! Again I could be wrong, but it seems that the father is really a black and white with a gold mask covering it. Not a breeder, have just tried to read up on some of it. HTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 It looks like the Dad has a gold 'masking gene' on him which as far as I understand, hides his true colors. My little guy's father is gold as well- but as you can see frm my avatar, Jude is tri colored (and actually a sable as well). So yes it is definitely possible! Again I could be wrong, but it seems that the father is really a black and white with a gold mask covering it. Not a breeder, have just tried to read up on some of it. HTH! Can a dog actually be tricolor and sable at the same time? I am coming from a primarily sheltie and pap background, but I don't think it's possible in those breeds at least. I assumed the colors would work the same across the breeds but maybe I'm wrong. I know in paps we have two different patterns of tricolor, one of which looks similar sometimes to sables. But the dog is technically tricolor. Any border collie genetics gurus care to explain it to me? I love genetics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 My question is can this color combination from the parents produce tri colored pups? Yes, it can and commonly does. Tri is recessive, so as long as both parents have at least one copy of the gene, then the offspring can be tri. If both parents have just one copy of the tri gene, neither of them will be tri, but each of their pups will have a 25% chance of being tricolour. If one parent is tri and one just carries the gene, then each pup has a 50% chance of being tri. Two tricolour parents will have all tricolour pups. If one parent doesn't carry the gene at all, no pups will be tri, even if the other parent is a tri or a known carrier- but if that second parent is a tri, then all pups will carry tri, and if the second parent is a known carrier, then each pup will have a 50% chance of being a carrier. In your pup's case, the dam is an ee red, so could be tri or not (the ee red masks the underlying colour), and the sire must carry the tri gene. Looking at the picture of the dam, she might actually be a brown/red, as well as ee red- she seems to have a brownish nose. But that's unrelated to whether or not she's tricolour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hey_jude Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Can a dog actually be tricolor and sable at the same time? I am coming from a primarily sheltie and pap background, but I don't think it's possible in those breeds at least. I assumed the colors would work the same across the breeds but maybe I'm wrong. I know in paps we have two different patterns of tricolor, one of which looks similar sometimes to sables. But the dog is technically tricolor. Any border collie genetics gurus care to explain it to me? I love genetics. You know I'm not sure! I'm wondering this too. If you look at Jude's fur, you can see it's sabled... its different colored from the roots to the top. I actually was disappointed at first! Granted I love him no matter his color- but I definitely find sable BCs to be my least favorite Many of Jude's siblings have sabled out more than him, so he may, but I kind of like him just as he is! He seems like a sable, and seems to look quite different from many BC tri's, but his sable markings seem to be right where Tri's have their brown markings. Does anyone know the answer to this? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 You know I'm not sure! I'm wondering this too. If you look at Jude's fur, you can see it's sabled... its different colored from the roots to the top. I actually was disappointed at first! Granted I love him no matter his color- but I definitely find sable BCs to be my least favorite Many of Jude's siblings have sabled out more than him, so he may, but I kind of like him just as he is! He seems like a sable, and seems to look quite different from many BC tri's, but his sable markings seem to be right where Tri's have their brown markings. Does anyone know the answer to this? Thanks in advance. Is it possible he's saddled? My pap puppy is a 'hound tri' which is just the breed term for saddled tricolor. Is he sable throughout his coat or are there pure black hairs? The saddled/hound pattern progresses interestingly. My girl started out looking much like a traditional tricolor and then certain areas of her face and behind her ears started fading to tan. Behind her ears she looks sabled. But her body patches are staying pure black all the way through. Ticking on her lower legs is tan just like a regular tricolor. I've always been taught the way to tell a sable from a tri is by looking at the black parts of the coat. Even though my shaded sable sheltie looked black from far away if you parted his hair the roots were a different color. Tristan on here is progressing much like my girl is: http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Perm...olorSaddle.html I really don't know much about bc color genetics though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Two recent threads on coloring (tri/sable in particular). Interesting reading. http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=25199 http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=25148 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hey_jude Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I'm not sure about saddled... he doesn't look too saddled... but he's so young who knows. It's always just fun to guess what your little guy is gonna look like when he gets oldere. I have no idea with Jude. Hmmm I read those threads and someone said there were sable tris and tan point tris... not if they are correct or not but did see that! Unfortunately I haven't gotten to spend enough time with Jude to really examine his fur too closely. The breeder briefly showed me when I visited him but when I get him in a week I can further investigate! I find it very interesting too. Thanks guys- sorry to take over OP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Two recent threads on coloring (tri/sable in particular). Interesting reading. http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=25199 http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=25148 Thanks! Those are interesting and compelling. It seems some colors are just hard to define and no one can really agree on them. I know some people would consider my girl a sable too but her breeder considers her a tri. Confusing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmartin Posted September 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Thanks for all the help everyone! I think I may have a handle on the whole genetics thing now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 well I known quiet a few BCs and dogs in general that are both Tri and Sable so its obviously possable lol. as for the tri, no both parents do not have to BE tri to get tri pups. Mistys parents were both black and white, but half the litter was Tri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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