Enticing a BC to overeat in order to help her gain weight

[pansmom]

Because Vala, recently rescued from the local animal control center, is underweight and needs lots of energy to help the meds beat several bugs she has from living outside unmedicated all her life (hookworms and kennel cough now, and heartworms with DC and Ivermectin hopefully starting next week), my vet has instructed me to offer her double the bag-listed rations for her weight, or do whatever it takes to get her to eat as much as possible. So yesterday we spiced up her diet with really great food, such that her caloric intake was 2x the recommended for her weight, and she wolfed everything down.

 

However, today she has seemed, not surprisingly, relatively uninterested in food. I realize she's probably full. But she's so thin. So far today she had only eaten the normal amount, and when I went to give her dinner, she refused it. I really needed her to take her pill though, the antibiotic to fight the kennel cough (which definitely seems to be helping her cough), so I started experimenting with other foods to get her to take it. First I tried wrapping the pill in hot dog. Refusal. (Which is really cute by the way. She sighs, stretches her legs out, and puts her chin on top of the piece of hot dog.) Then I tried turkey. Same drill. Then, I pulled out the peanut butter. That she was into. She took the pill, and kept licking the floor where the peanut butter had been. So I tried coating the dinner she had refused in a spoonful of peanut butter --- and she took it. I wouldn't be so pushy about the food, if it wasn't for the fact that her energy levels today and yesterday have been UP UP UP, she is obviously feeling better, and her coughing is definitely decreasing in intensity and frequency, and she's acting so much more alert --- trotting in that special beautiful way BC's have, where they almost float on the ground, on our walk, and she herded squirrels today in the backyard and has even been playing some --- well they look like herding games --- with Nyxie in the house (no sounds from either of them, no contact, just lots of trotting and chasing and hiding, and they both keep going back for more and look like they're having fun -- this after some, oh I don't know what you call it, but yesterday I did 5-6 reps of petting Nyxie, then when Vala ignored it, throwing her a high quality treat, because Vala was coming to herd Nyxie away from me every time she saw me go to pet Nyxie). So she seems to be FEELING better, and she's not scared of any of the rooms in the house anymore (where cats hide). And if the ginormous amount of food is helping her energy levels, shouldn't I keep trying? If so, what foods should I try when/if she tires of peanut butter? Is peanut butter even okay? (I've read that it is... I know it's used to calm reactive dogs because the mushy texture distracts them... that's why I started giving it to Pan.) Her digestive functioning is normal --- she's not having any issues at this point.

[Sue R]

What I would try to do if I were in your situation, is to offer a reasonable portion but of nutrition-dense food. Something like the no-grain kibbles (that contain a very high level of protein and fat compared to grain-containing kibble) or a raw diet (which, while it contains a lot of water, is chock-full of nutrition). That way, you wouldn't be feeding so much bulk while you are feeding lots of nutrition.

 

I had a dog that had digestive issues and didn't have a great appetite - so, I went for feeding the best in terms of nutrient density. And, also make sure to feed sufficient fat in terms of protein to fat ratio - at least half the calories from fat that she is getting from protein, and up to 2/3 the calories from fat as she is getting from protein. Many kibbles may have sufficient protein but are often low on fat compared to protein (in terms of calories - fat has twice the calories per gram as protein or carbohydrate).

 

I am sure others will give much better information and advice! Best wishes!!

[sluj]

Are you feeding just kibble with a topping? Maybe mixing some canned food in would help. Or chopping up something like the Natural Balance food roll (we call it "magic sausage" around here).

[Smokjbc]

Does your vet sell A/D or Recovery formula foods? Both are designed for animals that need a hi-calorie diet to recover from illness and are easily mixed in with kibble or made into a gruel. Or you could get Nutrical paste to supplement- but I think it might be more practical to used the canned.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with Sue. Instead of stuffing her to the gills with double the amount of kibble recommended on the bag of food (more often than not the recommendations on the bag are a bit high to begin with), I'd get a high quality food and feed her normal amounts or if I wanted extra maybe add a third small meal a day. She will gain weight without you throwing food to her like she's a market hog. Be careful of too much fat as well (Sue's ratios are correct) or you could cause a problem like pancreatitis.

 

Even if she's under the weather and battling heartworm, just giving her slightly more than the normal amount of food should help her gain weight in a safe manner. And remember that most vets see pets who are overweight and so don't always have a clear idea of what a healthy weight looks like. You want to be able to feel her ribs when you run your hands lightly down her sides, and you want her to have a visible waist when viewed from above and a clear tuck behind the rib cage when viewed from the side. Being overweight is a *much greater* health risk for both animals and humans than being slightly underweight.

 

J.

[ThunderHill]

I think there have been several sled dog metabolism studies that showed how important good quality/non-processed fats are to a dog's energy levels. The parallel I recall is that dogs process fats for energy the way humans process carbohydrates.

 

If you can find things with unprocessed fats (raw steak trimmings, chicken trimmings) that's usually best. Also, personally, I like to give my dogs sardines, anchovies, and/or canned mackerel (in water!) depending on what I can find -- all of which are high in all kinds of good stuff, omega fatty acids, bitty bones, and have some anti-inflammatory benefit as well. (Oily fish or pelagic fish is most beneficial -- catfish, whitefish and trout don't have as much of the "good stuff.") Most dogs seem to love fish. Maybe it's the reek. (Though of course one of my dogs is truly allergic to fish... I thought originally he was just being picky, but give him a squirt of fish oil on his kibbles and he'll hack everything up within 10-15 minutes. I think that's pretty rare, though.)

 

Also, if you can find raw chicken livers, Vala will probably find them a great treat. (And usually not real expensive.) I don't feed them straight, but I will often cut them into chunks and put them on the dogs' usual dinner. Cow liver is also good, personally I just hate handling it.

 

Egg yolks. But not a lot of egg whites, particularly not lots of raw egg whites, which contain an enzyme called avidin that can act to make biotin (an important B-vitamin) unavailable. (Although a dog has to get a lot of raw eggs for a fairly long time to really show the effects.)

 

One of my extra-special treats (apart from cream cheese or runny cheese) is liverwurst or weiswurst. In the grocery stores up here, it's usually in the refrigerated section near the hot dogs, bacon, and lunch meats. It's VERY rich and a little goes a long way, when it comes to pills.

 

I wouldn't try too hard to stuff her, as long as she's interested in her food and can have all she wants. Now that she's getting quality food and care, and is away from the grinding stress of shelter life, she'll probably gain weight at a good rate despite her parasite load.

 

As ever, sending lots of good thoughts!

 

Off to stuff myself with aspirin now, after a hard day at the office and a hard evening getting the hay in the barn before it rains...

 

Liz S in PA

 

Edited to fix rotten typing...

[Alaska]

Does your vet sell A/D or Recovery formula foods? Both are designed for animals that need a hi-calorie diet to recover from illness and are easily mixed in with kibble or made into a gruel. Or you could get Nutrical paste to supplement- but I think it might be more practical to used the canned.

I pretty much agree with Jamie: temporarily switch to a high quality canned food that is designed to add weight (in the right proportions). Not sure about the Nutrical idea - aren't most of the calories in Nutrical basically sugars? I would think that proteins and fats are more what an underweight dog would need in these circumstances.

 

Since nobody has yet mentioned velvet balls, I will. Haven't used them myself but they're frequently suggested as a way to put weight on a dog quickly. Google will find you many variants of the recipe.

 

Wrap pills in cream cheese (or just wadded up cheese) when you get tired of the peanut butter mess.

[juliepoudrier]

Alaska,

I think you mean satin balls.

 

I want to reiterate my comment that going overboard on fat for your dog can result in pacreatitis, which is a very serious illness. I would not give my dog a lot of extra fat without an express "prescription" from a veterinarian. I actually trim fat off of some raw cuts I feed my dogs because I don't want to overdo the fat and cause health problems. A protein:fat ratio of 3:2 is ideal. If you want to up the fat above that ratio, do it with the knowledge/assistance of a vet who knows something about nutrition. If you do it on your own, at least ask your vet about potential adverse consequences of loading on the fat so that you can recognize the signs of illness and react quickly.

 

ETA: Here's a link on factors contributing to canine pancreatitis. Note that while obesity is listed as one contributing factor, so are high-fat diets and one-time ingestion of a high-fat substance.

 

J.

[ThunderHill]

A strategy for giving pills that's worked for me (except with dogs who felt so sick they didn't want to eat anything at all) is to line up not one, but several extra yummy treats, and make sure the dog sees there are several. (Any peer pressure you can apply also helps -- you don't have other dogs to play this game with, but maybe the cats could play the role of "interested onlookers"?) I usually put the pill in the second treat. All pieces are relatively small, but large enough to camouflage the medication. I get the dog really focused on the incipient yummies, and then they get:

 

plain treat

medicated treat

plain treat

plain treat

 

And usually they're so eager to make sure they get ALL the yummies, they bolt the medicated treat with little hesitation, swallow, and keep going.

 

(On the other hand, I've met dogs who are almost cat-like in their ability to secrete pills in some private interior spatial warp, and spit them out again in a remote corner long after I've been sure the medication had finally been swallowed. Hopefully that won't turn out to be one of Vala's talents!)

 

Liz S in PA

[pansmom]

Even if she's under the weather and battling heartworm, just giving her slightly more than the normal amount of food should help her gain weight in a safe manner. And remember that most vets see pets who are overweight and so don't always have a clear idea of what a healthy weight looks like. You want to be able to feel her ribs when you run your hands lightly down her sides, and you want her to have a visible waist when viewed from above and a clear tuck behind the rib cage when viewed from the side. Being overweight is a *much greater* health risk for both animals and humans than being slightly underweight.

 

Just to be clear to everyone, it's not a case of suburban vet diagnosing underweight dog where a normal BC lies. Vala was severely underweight last week. Now she is moderately underweight, only just getting into a 3 on the condition scale. Her skin is scaling, dandruff everywhere - scale, dead fleas - and she's had intestinal worms. It's only the past week or so, after being medicated - two days ago, for the second time - that she's been able to gain at all. Previously she was almost malnourished and extremely lethargic, sleeping immediately after exercise... So there's no risk of obesity. I'd just like to get her to say the thirty, maybe thirty two pound mark (she was at 25 last week, 27 now). She has severe heartworms (4+ microfilia) and hookworms and kennel cough. She's got a lot going on. And one of her hips is insanely palpable compared to the other (DH pointed it out, he thinks it was previously dislocated and maybe has healed incorrectly - she favors it a tiny bit, but doesn't seem to be in pain at all - still can run normally on it.) And her ribs are TOO palpable, although she seems better now. I think in a week or so we'll have to put her back on regular food, but for now, the vet REALLY wants her to get her weight up and get rid of the hookworms and KC before we start the heartworm treatment.

 

Thanks for all the liver, cream cheese, etc. suggestions. That's exactly what I wanted. Just suggestions of weird things to try to mix with her regular food. I'm not going to feed her some crazy fattening stuff. Nor can I really feed her the Rx dog food (can't afford it) but mixing crazy tasty condiments into her regular healthy organic healthy skin coat dog food I am happy to do and it seems to work for now--and we only have about 5 pounds to go! Thanks, all! More suggestions welcome!

[Maralynn]

Just be aware that a sudden switch to high fat/rich diet can cause pancreatitis as well, especially since she was on a low quality/starvation diet. And if you upset her digestive system with to much fat/rich foods it will not help her gain the weight. I would be working on upping her calorie/fat level slowly over about a week to make sure her system can handle it and you don't set her back by offering too much at once.

[Bordercentrics]

With all that wrong with her, I wouldn't expect her to put much weight on very fast. I think as her health improves and as she eats a good, healthy diet, her condition will also improve. The suggestions and advice about what to feed her have been good. I have used Satin Balls successfully in the past, but I only used them for a short period of time. And didn't feed as many as recommended.

 

Kathy Robbins

[Rave]

I wouldn't suggest no grain foods. I can't feed my normal dogs no grain because they lose weight on it. I asked my vet the same thing recently for my old BC/Saluki (who's always been skinny), and he suggested adding in starches. Said it was a trick he learned from an "old-timey" vet. lol What I do is just add canned food in and mix it all up to get Si to eat.

[Dixie_Girl]

Personally, I wouldn't even be concerned with her gaining weight. As long as she is not losing weight, and she is getting proper nutrition, she will be able to fight the infection and deal with the HW. If you start loading her up with more food than she is used to getting she will be using energy to digest it and it will just be more her body is having to deal with. If she is able to get around as well as you describe, she is not on the verge of starvation, so you can let her gain naturally at a nice slow pace which is better for her in the long run. Her body is dealing with a lot right now, including digesting probably much better food. Holly was litterally skin and bones when I got her out of the shelter. And she was wormy, HW+ and needed to be spayed. She did just fine on what was a normal amount of food. JMO

 

Good luck!

[Sue R]

Remember, if you choose to be feeding raw meat, that by volumn or weight, a piece of fat is much more full of calories (and less water) than a piece of meat. The protein/fat ratio is not equal to a weight/weight or size/size ratio - a much smaller piece of solid fat will have more grams of fat (and much more calories) than a larger piece of meat. I give my dogs raw fat as a supplement with their kibble, and it's usually a smallish piece, like a teaspoon or tablespoon at most. It varies (and I second the advice on adding fat gradually to avoid upsets or pancreatitis) from meal to meal, and I keep an eye on their coats and weight to make sure I am getting it reasonably right.

 

I know you will do a terrific job with Vala. Minor mistakes will be insignificant when compared with a terrific home and loving care. Best wishes!

[juliepoudrier]

Mary,

I realize that Vala *needs* to gain weight. I am simply pointing out that if you are not careful about how you go about it, you can do more harm than good. If she's refusing food, trying to force her to overeat isn't going to *help* the situation. You can take my advice or leave it--that's up to you--but there's a good reason medically it's generally recommended that you NOT take a starving human or animal and stuff them full of food right off the bat. Instead of getting defensive, how about considering the validity of what I (and others here) have said about the risks of shoving a ton of food down her? I wasn't implying that Vala is obese (did you even read the link I posted?)--I pointed out that in your efforts to try to get her to gain weight quickly if you add too much fat to her diet, you run the risk of causing pancreatitis--which is a life-threatening illness. I have a friend who just went through a bout of pancreatitis with her dog. It was extremely frightening and costly. As I said, take it or leave it. Good luck with her.

 

J.

[KrisK]

I don't ever want to go through pancreatitis again with any of my dogs. I nearly lost my Zachary 5 years ago. His normal diet was dried kibble with a few treats. During the summer we were moving, he was fed scraps of lunch meats (lots of fat) .... He spent 4 days in the vet clinic with IV's and came out with a heart murmur that still has the vet wondering why he's still with us! That pancreatitis hit almost instantly.

I know you want to do what's best for Vala....so take it slowly We are all pulling for her!

[PSmitty]

I agree with Sue. Instead of stuffing her to the gills with double the amount of kibble recommended on the bag of food (more often than not the recommendations on the bag are a bit high to begin with), I'd get a high quality food and feed her normal amounts or if I wanted extra maybe add a third small meal a day. She will gain weight without you throwing food to her like she's a market hog. Be careful of too much fat as well (Sue's ratios are correct) or you could cause a problem like pancreatitis.

 

Even if she's under the weather and battling heartworm, just giving her slightly more than the normal amount of food should help her gain weight in a safe manner. And remember that most vets see pets who are overweight and so don't always have a clear idea of what a healthy weight looks like. You want to be able to feel her ribs when you run your hands lightly down her sides, and you want her to have a visible waist when viewed from above and a clear tuck behind the rib cage when viewed from the side. Being overweight is a *much greater* health risk for both animals and humans than being slightly underweight.

 

J.

 

My advice, exactly.

 

ETA: I missed Dixiegirl's post before, but ditto that one, too!

[ThunderHill]

Sorry to see Vala's heartworms are severe. But with a nice, sensible dog; nice, sensible treatment; and a nice-sensible environment in which to recuperate, she ought to be fine. I think you'll find the next couple of months will fly by!

 

One thing I'd suggest, in case you start worrying along the way about your progress, would be to make a detailed list now of things about Vala that you'd like to see be better for her. Include recorded weights (right from the start), a picture of her showing her coat in poor condition, maybe a close up with the fur turned back to show her icky skin. The parasite situation. The slick floor problem. (See how much progress she's made already?) Getting into the car for your DH. How much she's playing, how easily she gets worn out, gooky eyes and cough. Make a note of any housebreaking concerns, issues with cat interactions, the thunder worries, etc. Trying to feed her up.

 

Then make a note on your calendar to check that list again: at one month, two months, and three months from now. And see how many things you can scratch off.

 

Or just keep a copy of your posts here (with dates) which may serve pretty much the same purpose.

 

Hopefully, you'll find it will give you a very clear sense of achievement, especially if you hit a typical "plateau" along the way, where a few lingering things remain frustrating and it's easy to lose track of how far you've really come.

 

Sending you lots of positive thoughts for the weeks to come,

 

Liz S in PA

[pansmom]

Julie, I didn't mean to come off as defensive, sorry if I did. Nor did I think you were implying that Vala was obese! Oh my goodness, why would I think that? I just meant to clarify that it's not a case of this vet being used to seeing fat animals, and worrying about Vala because she looks thin in comparison to them; it's a case of he says we can't treat her for the heartworms until she's gained weight and gotten rid of KC and hookworms, because she's not in a condition to take the treatment without it. And her body needs energy, so he suggested that since she was wolfing down all of her food before, I add some and see what she does, and even try new things to see how much she'll take. Sorry if I was unclear or implied you thought Vala was obese. That would be silly! Anyway, I do know about pancreatitis because I researched it before for one of my cats (though he ended up not having it). But Vala's not going from a starvation diet to this. In between what was apparently a starvation diet (especially when combined with the worms) outside, and coming here, she's been at the shelter for a little over three weeks, getting fed normal (but admittedly probably not high quality) rations. And I'm not offering her single high fat items either as far as I know. But that's a good point and I'll keep it in mind.

 

Kris, that is so worrisome, what were you giving your boy - bologna? Just curious, because I've given Vala lunchmeat, only it was 99% fat free turkey (with a pill wrapped in it), the only kind I keep in the house. I sure didn't think half a spoonful of peanut butter with a pill, or a spoonful mixed in with her regular food, and three meals instead of two, would cause pancreatitis. There are lots of proteins and grains in the dog food, so it's not like the fat is having to be digested all at once and by itself to cause pancreas overload?

 

But wow, I'll be careful, and I'll ask the vet today, whether he thinks I'm going overboard, when I call to update him as requested. Thanks everyone!

[pansmom]

Oh and thanks, Liz, that's a great idea. I'll just post it here, keep it simple. I already see great strides in Vala and feel a huge sense of pride and accomplishment in how far she's already come. Even with all that lies before me, it feels like nothing compared to what I've been through with Pan! Vala seems like a dream dog!

 

BEHAVIORAL HEALTH

fear of floor textures - x

walk on leash without refusing to budge - x

listens to come - x

knows name - x

sits - x

listens leave it - x

kennels - x

housetraining - progress (only one accident, so far)

cat interaction - huge progress

bonding - huge progress

mild thunderphobia - need to watch

 

PHYSICAL HEALTH

kennel cough - progress

hookworms - medicated, we'll see

heartworms - hopefully will start next week (DC, Ivermectin, need to show vet that abstract)

tapeworms - need to ask vet about this

right hip - need to ask vet about this

fleas - deflea'd, but need to get her on preventative, ask vet next week

rabies - needs shot

skin - poor condition, may take months of good nutrition to recover?

fur - looks better since bathing, still some snags, need to continue bathing and brushing regimen

weight - 25 pounds 8/19, 27.1 pounds 8/26 (different scales)

energy - definite progress, actually jumped into my hand to get pet this morning first thing outside

playing - some progress - almost chased a ball this morning, tail and ears up, running around the backyard

 

Once we get all this stuff done, then we'll probably need to find her a job! (Obedience and agility and so on...) I can't wait until she feels better enough to work with her on that kind of fun stuff! But I'm happy just having her around now. She is so gentle and kind and attentive. I feel very lucky to have her in my home.

[Root Beer]

Pansmom,

 

I'd second the recommendation for letting Vala try a grain free kibble - even if only as a once a day snack to supplement her regular diet.

 

I had the darndest time keeping a healthy amount of weight on Dean, even on a raw diet. When I added 1/2 cup of Taste of the Wild to his regular diet once a day, he was able to hold the weight on. (He's still very slender, but much healthier looking and feeling)

 

Aside from that, he loves it and has a great appetite for it.

[MaryP]

I just skimmed the other posts, but agree with focusing on quality, not necessarily quantity. Also, be patient. You haven't had her that long, yet, and she is just now getting treated for her various health issues. Remember, intestinal parasites will compete for nutrition. Once she's rid of those, she'll have all the nutrition to herself.

 

I've fostered several dogs that came to me as severely underweight. Once their illnesses are treated and they are feeling better and eating good food, they come back into condition pretty quickly. I think you'll be surprised how much better she'll look (and feel) two weeks from now. Don't push too hard too quickly. She will get there.

[bc friend]

You've gotten a lot of good advice and I second the suggestions about feeding a high quality food in normal portions. My vet has been a big proponent of adding some yogurt or cottage cheese (regular, not low-fat) to food for underweight dogs (or for a dog recovering from an illness) and it has worked for my dogs w/o any problems.

[Sue R]

One thing I did not mention was a simple concept about feeding, either to help a dog gain or lose weight - feed for the weight that is the goal. For instance, if your dog weighs 30# and should be 40# for a healthy, trim weight, then feed as if the dog were 40#. You won't be overfeeding and the weight gain should be reasonably paced. If the dog weighs 50# and should be 40#, then feed as if the dog were 40#.

 

Our old Aussie, MacLeod, was quite overweight (at 82# or so, I was still in denial and saying he "had a heavy coat") from years of free-feeding (another no-no) and gaining weight gradually as his activity level decreased with age. I finally admitted he was just plain fat, got a reasonably good-quality "weight control" feed, and fed him strictly by the rule of thumb for the weight goal that would be healthy for his frame.

 

The weight melted off but at a healthy pace and he became a more active, almost "younger" dog as he got rid of all that excess baggage that put stress on his heart, his lungs, his legs, his entire self. Keeping on that feeding rate kept him trim without being thin until he passed on.

 

And, when we had Bute (who had genetic digestive and malabsorption issues and possible damage to his digestive tract due to very early puppyhood parasite loads), he did best on multiple small meals. Pushing him to eat larger meals to get more "meat" on his bones only resulted in his going off his feed frequently. If I only had known then what I know now...

 

Now, if only I would take my own advice and deal with my over-eating issues...