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How much are herding drop out normally? I am sure they vary in price but on average how much are they?

 

I recently ran across a dog I like. She has a nice built, friendly, and I am told she is very fast and a quick turner but...

My issues are:

-She is almost 2. I will have to break any bad habits she has and start from scratch in all the training.

-She is a "drop- out" because she is too aggressive with sheep to herd with. The breeder said she will try to kill them?

-She has only lived in a kennel.

-She isn't spayed

-but I think my biggest issue is how much she is asking for her $800. (I could get a VERY NICE bred puppy that has been raise how I like for the same amount.)

 

Is this the normal amount they go for? When I asked about the price I am told she cost that much because she is from well bred lines and since she has been started on sheep even though she isn't selling her that purpose...? Her sire was by their shearer's dog who went back to Tom Wilson lines and out of Sis who goes back to Henry Kuykendall lines. Note that neither of these names are on the 4 generation pedigree.

 

Any thoughts? Am I being unreasonable? IS this the normal rate?

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Agreed, if the reason for selling is lack of ability, should be very cheap unless s/n and then to at least cover costs. IMHO she is NOT started if she is too aggressive. If proven on cattle and suitable, then the price might be acceptable, depending on her level of training.

 

I know if I find a suitable home for 'washouts' the dog is free.

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imo a washout of that age should equal the price of a spay/neuter and a full pre-vetting (up to date with vaccine or titer, heartworm test, deworming) - around $200 to $400. Similar to the price of a same age Rescue adoption.

 

In my experience there are very few people that respect what they get for free.

 

your concerns...

 

age 2 - is a great age - you can go right to "work" after the adjustment period to your home.

 

has bad habits - keeping in a kennel and training for work certainly does not mean this. Observe the individual dog and make a judgement. If she was with any degree of decent herding trainer she should have a great recall even when "in drive", understand "no", and understand how to be trained. The latter is sometimes a problem in neglected dogs - it's worse to not understand what it is to be trained, then even to be trained badly.

 

only lived in a kennel - is only an issue if she was never out of it (unsocialized or neurotic). If she is friendly, adaptable....then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

not spayed - Not a big deal (except, yet again another herding dog from good lines being passed around with free breeding rights). I would insist the cost of this be deducted from the 800. Which by the way is totally nuts.

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As far as only lived in a kennel goes, as long as she is friendly and social, I'd rahter have a dog who spent time in a kennel rather than outside of one learning bad habits.

 

FWIW, my former kennel dog is very happy to be in the house, hang out with me and sleep and my bed :rolleyes: He still spends several hours during the day in an outdoor kennel, but he always makes a beeline for the backdoor first with a "pleeease" look on his face.

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Herding drop-outs are my specialty and I prefer a dog at 2 years of age. You know exactly what you are getting and if the dog will work to your strengths or not. If you like the dog, then offer $500. At that price, she is not a bargain, but it is not an insult either. If you are looking for bargains, then go to a shelter. If you want a pup, then get a pup. If you REALLY like this dog and seem to have a connection with her (i.e., you can't get her out of your head), then pay the $800. I would not get too fixated on price if this is the dog you really, really want.

 

Good luck!

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Thanks for your fast replys! :rolleyes: If she was only 200-400 I would take her in a heart beat. I would want to do agility with her :D and while she is two that doesn't mean she will want to do agility or be good at it but for 200-400 I would take the chance. :D I have a relative of her that does awesome at agility, similar lines that was only 350. Which is why I took a look in the first place. I am going to see if the breeder will reconsider the price.

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Ally is not a "Drop Out", but a very strong working dog. We have sheep around here and I do not have the time to work her on a daily basis. She is aggressive with sheep, but with time and work may come out of that. I feel she would work for somebody with the time and experience, or better yet work cattle as her mothers lines are cattle bred. She worked sheep from the 1st time she was put on them and has a lot of talent but is too much dog for me as I am a novice handler. I only train 1-2 times a month and she needs more. As our sheep are expensive breeding/showing sheep I did not want to have a dog around that I had to watch constantly. So I made the decision to sell her to someone who could use her daily or for agility as she is fast. She has no bad habits, except tough with a bite on sheep and does not care to ride in the truck. She is ABCA papered and Normal for CEA, the price I am charging is my decision.

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If she's 2 years old, and you can't train her to do anything on sheep that's reliable or helpful in a small farm environment, she's a drop-out. You may not like those words, but it's the truth. It's possibly not her fault - after all she was cattle work bred and you bought her for sheepwork knowing you didn't know how to train to top that off.... But that's water under the bridge, or should I say sheep over the fence.

 

ABCA papered means nothing of value unless she can demonstrate the work for which her pedigree indicates she might be able to do.

 

CEA normal means nothing of value unless you breed her, and then only minimal compared to proven working skills. So frankly the biggest problems with breeding from her is she's not trained. Why would anybody buy a pup out of a bitch that the owner can't train? (rhetorical question, I'm sure someone would, as people do a lot of silly things) So we can rule her out as a brood female in a quality program for now.

 

Have you considered a dog that doesn't like to ride in a truck might be a signficant issue for someone who wants to travel to competitive events with them?

 

I'd give you $200 if I was looking. Otherwise you could keep her. After a couple of bags of dog food and years vet bills, maybe a pyometra or an accident/injury to treat. you'd probably be more willing. The question is...will the buyer? I wouldn't. Too many other dogs of the same sort available in the 2 year age group.

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Gee, Lenajo, you can't even get a rescue for $200! But $800 is a bit steep for a dog that is not started, and, as you say, L, there is much supply in that age range. (And "started" can mean a lot of different things, but getting back behind sheep without gripping could be considered "started").

 

I'm not picking on you, Joyce; your decision is your's and you don't have to defend it. But I buy a lot of dogs and have a bit of a sense for price.

 

 

 

(Hey, Wendy, I'm following you around the board today. Or, are you following me??? ;-))

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Ally is not a "Drop Out", but a very strong working dog. We have sheep around here and I do not have the time to work her on a daily basis. She is aggressive with sheep, but with time and work may come out of that. I feel she would work for somebody with the time and experience, or better yet work cattle as her mothers lines are cattle bred. She worked sheep from the 1st time she was put on them and has a lot of talent but is too much dog for me as I am a novice handler. I only train 1-2 times a month and she needs more. As our sheep are expensive breeding/showing sheep I did not want to have a dog around that I had to watch constantly. So I made the decision to sell her to someone who could use her daily or for agility as she is fast. She has no bad habits, except tough with a bite on sheep and does not care to ride in the truck. She is ABCA papered and Normal for CEA, the price I am charging is my decision.

 

Did you train her? You are a self-admitted novice who only works her dogs 1-2 times a month--are you sure you can even say she is started?

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Not sure where you are rescuing, but $200 is a pretty standard rescue adoption fee in this region for a Border Collie or Aussie. From the pound, complete with papers, and neutered dog of either breed is about $75.

 

I'm always amazed at what people charge for the dog they can't train, and don't want. Like either of these is a selling point.

 

 

Gee, Lenajo, you can't even get a rescue for $200! But $800 is a bit steep for a dog that is not started, and, as you say, L, there is much supply in that age range. (And "started" can mean a lot of different things, but getting back behind sheep without gripping could be considered "started").

 

I'm not picking on you, Joyce; your decision is your's and you don't have to defend it. But I buy a lot of dogs and have a bit of a sense for price.

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Okay,L, we have set $200 as a rescue price. But this is not a rescue. This is an owner who has a valued dog that is not fitting her operation. Valued as meaning the owner has invested $135 in a CEA DNA test or purchased a pup from DNA'd parents. So, my thinking goes, when considering a dog for purchase - you have $300-500 for the price of a pup, cost of feeding, along with some training, future breeding ability along with the cost of the DNA test = perhaps $800. Then subtract the cost of the incovenience of having a grippy dog around valuable sheep, and the increasing depreciation that comes with age, along with the desire for the dog to go to a decent home that will keep the dog active and happy (and good homes are hard to come by). What does this reduce the price to? Negotiation is nothing but a process of price discovery.

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Okay,L, we have set $200 as a rescue price. But this is not a rescue. This is an owner who has a valued dog that is not fitting her operation.

 

How does the dog have value based on this? Because she bought a cattledog for sheep work without thinking about it? because the owner "forgot" she didn't know how to train when she bought a pup?

 

Valued as meaning the owner has invested $135 in a CEA DNA test or purchased a pup from DNA'd parents
.

 

I see money spent there, but not value. All I can assume is that she intended to breed said pup - and that intention does not value make.

 

So, my thinking goes, when considering a dog for purchase - you have $300-500 for the price of a pup, cost of feeding, along with some training, future breeding ability along with the cost of the DNA test = perhaps $800.

 

If you buy badly, can't train your way out of it, nobody owes you return of investment. Or is that like buying a car you don't need, can't drive? Does it gain value because you wanted it once yourself? oh, wait.. it doesn't.

 

Then subtract the cost of the incovenience of having a grippy dog around valuable sheep

 

again, how does buying badly, and not being able to train, justify you getting money for the dog? Do we need to remind you that the dog is an incovenience because nobody has bothered to train it?

 

and the increasing depreciation that comes with age, along with the desire for the dog to go to a decent home that will keep the dog active and happy (and good homes are hard to come by). What does this reduce the price to? Negotiation is nothing but a process of price discovery.

 

What can this dog offer that a well selected rescue dog can't then? A set of ABCA papers? Rescues come with that. Next to no training? Rescues come with that. A 2 year history of being fed, watered, and kenneled? Rescues come with that.

 

So far I see nothing about this dog that justifies a greater price that a $200 relatively standard adoption fee.

 

"I want" does not justify a price.

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I have purchased three different dogs that for one reason or another stalled out in their training. All were inthe five hundred to six hundred dollar range. They were or are useful dogs with some concessions for their various weaknesses. None of them had any worse habits than a typical pup would present in the course of maturation. Two were raised entirely inthe kennel yet took to inside life like they were born to it. I've fostered many kennel dogs in fact and if anything most seem MORE adaptable than a dog that has only known one home.

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L:

What can this dog offer that a well selected rescue dog can't then?

 

A known background and an owner that wants some control over how the dog is placed versus dumping it at a shelter or into rescue. As SSC states:

I have a relative of her that does awesome at agility

 

L:

I see money spent there, but not value.

 

Value is subjective and is determined at how precious an owner considers the dog. Some value is determined by cost analysis (mine:see above), supply, and seller/buyer motivation. Most value is determined by emotional bond to the dog.

 

L:

"I want" does not justify a price.
It most certainly does, hence the inflated values for agility dogs, dogs of off-colours, and anything that is remotely related to Aled Owen's Bob.
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It most certainly does, hence the inflated values for agility dogs, dogs of off-colours, and anything that is remotely related to Aled Owen's Bob
.

 

 

That's not justification, that's rationalization. And after seeing that website, SSCressna better hurry, because the untrained 2 year old is going to be producing a litter shortly if she doesn't buy her.

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That's not justification, that's rationalization.

 

Rationalization IS justification for the negotiating parties involved.

 

And after seeing that website, SSCressna better hurry, because the untrained 2 year old is going to be producing a litter shortly if she doesn't buy her.

 

We are in total agreement on this point. I thought that SSC was asking about real herding dogs, not what you would find on the website. A waste of my time and breath, I'm afraid. You win. :rolleyes:

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SS,

I don't sale or buy dogs from breeders so, at today's prices, I don't know if $800 is a good deal or not. What I do know is, there's no way I would pay $800 for a dog unless that dog can 'earn his keep'. To me 'value' is an asset and from what I'm getting from this statement

As our sheep are expensive breeding/showing sheep I did not want to have a dog around that I had to watch constantly.

the dog is a liability to joyce.

 

And according to this statement

She has no bad habits, except tough with a bite on sheep and does not care to ride in the truck.

that could be a liability to you depending on how much the dog would be riding in your vehicle. I would also find out what "does not care to ride in the truck" actually means. Does she pant alot?? Or does she get car sickness? Is it on short distances or only on long distance trips?

 

FWIW, there are some really good dogs in rescue. We adopted our Jake thru rescue. I have no intentions of ever trailing but he's still good enough to where we often wonder if he is, at least, a working farm bred dog.

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We are in total agreement on this point. I thought that SSC was asking about real herding dogs, not what you would find on the website. A waste of my time and breath, I'm afraid. You win. :rolleyes:

 

Nobody won. We wasted a lot of debate over the price of a dog that is nothing more than a mill reject. Next time somebody posts about an individual dog like this I want more details before I type LOL

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Yup. I don't withdraw my comment but just to clarify: I was not speaking in support of this operation. SO many nicer breeders are out there. A better use of this space would be to answer the question, "how does one find a nice older dog from a reputable source?" I'd love to hear from trainers as to how people who need dogs typically find you when you have one looking for a home. :rolleyes:

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Hello everyone,

 

Lejano wrote, "THIS is the dog in question. (with a link to the 5H Farms website page for the dog being discussed) There is so much wrong about this site, and this "program" I don't know where to start."

 

Ironically, I visited this website just yesterday regarding a litter that they had advertised. The breeding on the Liz / Mirk litter is impressive (the pups were imported in dam), but the $1,200 to $1,500 pricetag indicates to me the true purpose for the litter.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

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