gvmama Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Hey, I'm taking FULL advantage of you being here. Thanks. I remember first meeting you in Klamath at the finals (of course, I was spectating) and you kindly taught me about air density and whistles! Okay, I have 3 nice dogs...Eryri 9 yr. old, Keen-Eye 4 yr. old and an 18 mo. old pup of theirs. Obviously, the 9 yr. old was my first dog. Most people say they screw up their first dog. I can't say that. I don't think I could have. I guess that says alot about his work ethics. Anyway, he is a shedding fool. The one problem he has is that he sometimes turns on the wrong sheep (in competition). I think I need someone to film me and I will see that it is MY problem. Anyway, he turns in front of me on his sheep and is very keen about holding his sheep. He's been like that from the get-go. I took a private from Alasdair when he was 2 yrs. old and he had nothing but nice things to say about him. Next dog...the Keen-Eye bitch. "I" taught her to come in behind me on the shed. I swear I saw that on an Alasdair shedding video, but maybe I was dreaming. She was a bit hesitant in teaching to come in on my "here," but she loved coming in behind me. But, she stalls behind me and has been difficult to get to walk up. (And, just to note...she loves a challenge, but it must have something to do with the pressure or why else is she stalling?) As soon as I call her in (behind me) I have been walking with her or initially ran to the head of the sheep she shed and let her fetch them to me. She still is a bit stalled...maybe just more time shedding with encouragement? Pup, 18 mos. old...comes in painfully slow. Has a "here" off sheep that would knock you over. I don't want her coming in behind me like her dam. What are your thoughts about coming in on the shed "in front of you" or "behind you"...that is the question????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMSBORDERCOLLIES Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Hey, I'm taking FULL advantage of you being here. Thanks. I remember first meeting you in Klamath at the finals (of course, I was spectating) and you kindly taught me about air density and whistles! Okay, I have 3 nice dogs...Eryri 9 yr. old, Keen-Eye 4 yr. old and an 18 mo. old pup of theirs. Obviously, the 9 yr. old was my first dog. Most people say they screw up their first dog. I can't say that. I don't think I could have. I guess that says alot about his work ethics. Anyway, he is a shedding fool. The one problem he has is that he sometimes turns on the wrong sheep (in competition). I think I need someone to film me and I will see that it is MY problem. Anyway, he turns in front of me on his sheep and is very keen about holding his sheep. He's been like that from the get-go. I took a private from Alasdair when he was 2 yrs. old and he had nothing but nice things to say about him. Next dog...the Keen-Eye bitch. "I" taught her to come in behind me on the shed. I swear I saw that on an Alasdair shedding video, but maybe I was dreaming. She was a bit hesitant in teaching to come in on my "here," but she loved coming in behind me. But, she stalls behind me and has been difficult to get to walk up. (And, just to note...she loves a challenge, but it must have something to do with the pressure or why else is she stalling?) As soon as I call her in (behind me) I have been walking with her or initially ran to the head of the sheep she shed and let her fetch them to me. She still is a bit stalled...maybe just more time shedding with encouragement? Pup, 18 mos. old...comes in painfully slow. Has a "here" off sheep that would knock you over. I don't want her coming in behind me like her dam. What are your thoughts about coming in on the shed "in front of you" or "behind you"...that is the question????? Hi there. I've got a few minutes before I go to pasture sheep so I will try to answer your questions. First of all, you did see the dog coming in behind on an Alisdair shedding video made in CA just a few years ago. It is one of the better videos available on shedding and I highly recommend it to anyone. It was filmed at a clinic Geri Byrne hosted and it is actual film of the clinic, not a set up for the video. You need to remember though, that Alisdair made it very clear that it was a method of training he used to step into the hole and call the dog behind him. This was done for training purposes only and you don't step into the hole in a trial. One of the purposes for getting the dog to come behind was to be able to get the dog going faster coming in by flanking with a lot of encouragement if you had a dog that was a bit slow coming in. It works great for increasing the speed of the dog on the "here". For your bitch that is stalling when turned onto the sheep, she is probably thinking that she is done with her work when she comes in. You need to make the exerecise of shedding a two fold job of the bitch coming through and then taking the sheep for a long walk afterwards and making her stay on the shed off sheep. You could even do some penning afterwards if you like so that she gets the idea that her job isn't over just because she has come through. Don't have her fetch the sheep to you by walking to the shed off sheep. This will not teach her to walk in on the sheep. You need to use lots of encouragement here even to the point of getting her to grip the sheep to make them move. No anger, or force, just encouragement. Keep it fun. There is a lot of mental stress involved in shedding and you want your dog shedding because they love it, not just because they have to. Sometimes going back to the basics and using lots of sheep to start with, creating a big hole (15 or 20 feet) and getting the dog to push lots of sheep away takes some of the pressure off the dog and gets things going again. It could also be because of using this method that the dog is feeling that she doesn't need to do anything more once she's behind you because you are closer to the sheep than she is. Remember that I said that the idea of coming behind with you in the hole is for training only to get speed coming in so you need to start working further away from the sheep when calling the dog in so that you are not there in the hole when she gets there. She must understand that she is the one doing the shedding, not you. So keep back from your sheep and manuever yourself and the dog to get the split and then call her in and turn her on the sheep using the same hand that you showed her where to come in. In other words, if you are shedding the sheep on your left, you will use your right hand for the dog to aim at and then turn your right hand towards the sheep you are shedding off or holding and tell her to "walk up". All in one motion, no stops. Keep things moving so the dog never loses her control on the sheep. Your older dog is not that much oif a problem. This is simply doing a little more shedding practice with you showing the dog the sheep with your hand movement as I stated with your bitch above. Make sure that you always show him which sheep you want him to take in practice and that he does what you want. You need to be facing those sheep that you want shed off and pointing with your hand to those sheep and giving a "this one" or whatever command you use to show him which sheep you want. Regarding your pup and whether to come in behind or in front here is my answer to those questions. Remember again that coming in behind is strictly for training to get speed and that will work well with this pup to get some speed. Use lots of sheep and make big holes when training this pup and lots of encouragement all the time. Don't forget what I said about mental stress. Got to keep it light and not too long and enjoyable so that he gets to love it. When you have the speed then you have to stop with this training method and get to bringing the dog in on the heads of the sheep you want to shed off. Shedding is not behind or in front. It is the dog coming on the sheep you have shown him and taking control and pushing them away. Remeber, you are not supposed to be in the hole so if you are back from your sheep where you belong and your dog comes in behind you, he will not be in a position to take control. Your dog should always be positioned so that she comes onto the heads of the sheep you want off. That means that there has to be a bit of an angle onto the heads of the sheep before the dog starts to come in. If too far ahead of the sheep she will stop them all. If too far back she will not be able to stop the ones you want. You need to read your sheep and see which ones move off the easiest and arrange them so you can take the back ones. If a marked shed then you need to arrange them to take the two unmarked or the one marked depending if it's a shed or a single. When the dog and you are in the right position he will have stoped the back two sheep and let the front three go. The hole will appear and you call him in at that moment and it is a short moment so timing is of the essence and the dog must come in right away the second that he is told. It is at this moment as he arrives in front of the sheep that you indicate which ones you want but if you started at the right angle with the dog, he will already know which ones because he is already coming in on their heads. Hope this is clear enough. It's a little easier to show someone than it is to explain in writing but I think we can get it done here........Good luck and have fun.......Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gvmama Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 "Regarding your pup and whether to come in behind or in front here is my answer to those questions. Remember again that coming in behind is strictly for training to get speed and that will work well with this pup to get some speed. Use lots of sheep and make big holes when training this pup and lots of encouragement all the time. Don't forget what I said about mental stress. Got to keep it light and not too long and enjoyable so that he gets to love it. When you have the speed then you have to stop with this training method and get to bringing the dog in on the heads of the sheep you want." God Bless you Bob! I knew I wasn't completely crazy and yes, I have Alasdair's shedding video. That is where I got the bringing them in from behind, but I wasn't sure why I was doing that. LOL I'm a glutton for punishment. I train my own dogs on other people's sheep and have a blast working with them. But, sometimes I only get "part" of the picture. You filled in the holes and now I have the "whole" picture. I can't wait to watch the finals. I get to go for 4 days this year. Look out...I'm gonna give you a hug! Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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