What type of "mind"

[Journey]

There is a tremendous difference in the types of dogs. But what about the mind?

 

I have been talking to friends and watching dogs lately, youngsters and/or green dogs. Some of these dogs will "react" when working, not in a bad way, they just "try" to do "something" if they don't understand what's being asked of them, others will "stop" and wait for more info. guidance from the handler.

 

What makes such a stark contrast in these behaviors? Is either one better, worse, or is there a way to answer this? Is it more of a pull for a certain type of dog (mind) that handlers want that makes me see this difference (and why)? Or is it that a handler makes a dog this way due to handling (but how could that be)? Once you are beyond the learning are both types equal on the farm and trial field? What are the preferences, strengths, weakness and why?

 

It is hard to put it to words but the visual was very eye opening. Hope this makes some sort of sense, just curious!

[NRhodes]

I prefer the 'try to do something' type. Even if it's wrong, do something. I have my first dog of the other type and I'm trying to figure out what the heck to do with him. I guess 'till I figure it out he's going to sit in the kennel.

[Shoofly]

Some of that can be taught. I make sure to let dogs know i don't like "refusal" and that as long as they try something, even if it's wrong, it's okay.

[Lenajo]

I don't think refusal is what she means - thats another issue. It's more or less that if a one type of dog doesn't understand what you want, he pulls up and check ins, as opposed to other in the same situation that plows forward and makes up his own mind.

 

Obviously a happy medium would be great LOL.

 

I don't agree that it can be taught in its entirity. You can polish what's there, but if a dog is prone to blast when pushed, just like if he's prone to suck back and stall, it's going to happen when the chips are down even if he's trained by the best in the business.

[Angie H]

There is a tremendous difference in the types of dogs. But what about the mind?

 

I have been talking to friends and watching dogs lately, youngsters and/or green dogs. Some of these dogs will "react" when working, not in a bad way, they just "try" to do "something" if they don't understand what's being asked of them, others will "stop" and wait for more info. guidance from the handler.

 

What makes such a stark contrast in these behaviors? Is either one better, worse, or is there a way to answer this? Is it more of a pull for a certain type of dog (mind) that handlers want that makes me see this difference (and why)? Or is it that a handler makes a dog this way due to handling (but how could that be)? Once you are beyond the learning are both types equal on the farm and trial field? What are the preferences, strengths, weakness and why?

 

It is hard to put it to words but the visual was very eye opening. Hope this makes some sort of sense, just curious!

 

I do believe that some dogs come more "wired" to be thinkers, but I also think that the handler and the method of training can have a big impact on whether the dog continues to be a "thinker" and remains willing to "try something" or if we accidentally turn them into "push button dogs", waiting for our instruction before every move. I know I have been guilty of "micro managing" my dogs in the beginning - before we even went to sheep. Thank goodness someone showed me the error of my ways and reminded me that border collies are smart - so I try to let them think now :-\.

 

I am working at making the wrong decisions harder for my dogs and the right decisions easier, but I try not to tell them how to do it. I think this helps a dog's confidence, in that s/he learns that s/he can try different things until they get it right. They also learn that my corrections are helpful - not just a way to release my tension

 

When my dog stops, I figure maybe he's thinking about what just happened. So I wait for him to make the next move - it just might be the answer I was waiting for this time..

 

I like to watch people start new/green dogs, and I have seen some dogs that are from obedience or agility homes and many of them are extremely very handler-oriented. But in many of these situations, I think the training foundation has taught the dog to look to the handler for direction and to focus on them in the face of distraction, etc. Not that any of the dogs you were referring to are from those venues, but I just find it interesting that the training carries over to stock. (*Please Note: that was not meant as anything negative against obedience or agility folks...I also do agility with my own dogs for fun when we aren't working sheep)

 

Of course, that is just my "novicey" opinion, based on what I've seen and so far in my short time in this venue ;-)

 

Interesting topic though - I'm looking forward to reading what the experienced folks think about this.

[Journey]

You can polish what's there, but if a dog is prone to blast when pushed, just like if he's prone to suck back and stall, it's going to happen when the chips are down even if he's trained by the best in the business.

 

But if that's the case then you can also say that he will quit when the chips are down as well isn't it?

 

What I am wondering is the end result? Are they equal? Or do as you say they revert back to first inclinations? The more I think about it the more I wonder.

 

I don't know if you can say either is not a "thinker" or either is "softer" or more "sensitive" than the other. I don't enough dogs from beginning to end to see a clearer picture, how they started vs how they finished. I do know dogs from the same litter that are as black and white as can be though, different environment, different handling, different dogs entirely.

 

but I also think that the handler and the method of training can have a big impact on whether the dog continues to be a "thinker" and remains willing to "try something" or if we accidentally turn them into "push button dogs", waiting for our instruction before every move

 

I agree with this which is what I am wondering - can you mentally shut down a thinker or are the "waiters" that way no matter what?

[Denise Wall]

In my experience working with now three different sets of littermates these things are mostly hardwired. Same trainer, different outcomes. Littermates are not all the same. I have also worked with or closely followed a number of the dogs from each my breedings. Again, different tendencies genetically, modified slightly by training.

 

These were all dogs I bred and I know a lot about the dogs behind them, many of them being my dogs that I kept from birth until death. The last set of littermates is still young, but the other two sets were dogs I started and was also able to see how they ended up. My overall impression is dogs tend to go back to some faults they had as puppies when they approach the end of their working lives. As in, if they were hard to flank, tight, grippy, ran through sheep or things like that early in their training, you might see that again if you have them long enough. They lose the inhibitions that have been trained into them to do these things.

 

You can change some of these behaviors a little with training and handling. And some people can handle through them almost all of the time. But as has been stated, when it gets as hard as it gets, you will see what they are.

 

There are certain types of handling that will make certain traits worse. Apprehension that manifests itself as looking that handler or such, is one. However, there will be dogs that won't look at the person no matter what they do so genetics is certainly involved.

 

Overhandling, micromanaging, and low confidence and/or lack of knowledge on the part of the handler can cause dogs to shut down. I'm sure all dogs can be shut down eventually, no matter what their genetics, if enough of the right kind of pressure to shut them down is used. However, short of that, there are dogs out there that will become good dogs no matter what their situation.

 

When a well-intentioned dog is faced with extreme overhandling or inexperienced handling, I think those dogs that are very keen will be forced to do one of two basic things besides quit - they will learn to not care about what the sheep are doing and just do as told, or they will learn to blow off the handler and do what they think they need to do to keep the sheep under control. I have seen both. Many times.

[Sue R]

When a well-intentioned dog is faced with...inexperienced handling, I think those dogs that are very keen will be forced to...learn to blow off the handler and do what they think they need to do to keep the sheep under control.

If this doesn't describe my Celt, I don't know what does. Thank you for putting it into such easy to understand terms, Denise.

[juliepoudrier]

Great post Denise! Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

 

J.

[Denise Wall]

Thanks Sue and Julie

 

Julie, can you share about your two littermates on this topic?

[denice]

I would agree that some dogs are sit back and think types while others jump in the middle and see what happens. I had littermates that were about as opposite 'workers' as there are. Both raised, handled and started by me. The jump in and try something needed some help slowing up and thinking. Tthe never want to do it wrong guy needed to be encouraged and left alone a bit and kick up his instincts some and allow him to gain confidence that he could figure it out. What a difference it has made in him, getting the sheep moving and allowing him to get in there has made him want to work even more. He is a very natural dog, always easy and thoughtful so I knew just a word from me could slow him up if I needed. He is even more enjoyable to work now since he is more confident and enjoying himself. I must give credit to Jack Knox to seeing this in my dog and knowing what to try to help us, many folks had seen this dog but I think most assumed he just wasn't super keen which I knew wasn't the case.

Denice

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Wow, this would be an awesome subject for a book. Trainers/breeders like Denise who have raised many generations from their own breeding. Hmm. I'm printing out and saving Denise's answer here - one of those ones to read over several times. I've seen what Robin is talking about, too - I think maybe the term "refusal" is being used in two different ways in the discussion. I call it getting "stuck" - the dog is naturally more reserved rather than working through pressure.

 

And for sure the ones that barge through and come up with many solutions aren't always fighters - in fact I've seen this many times as a sign the dog is trying hard to work with me. I've had fighters/"hot" personalities and some of the worst were also the worst quitters, too. I think it's a separate piece of the puzzle, personally.

 

I like the tryer/team player combination best but as Robin said you can almost always work through a dog that has a low level of tolerance for obstacles - just like desensitizing them to anything else.

 

I was surprised when I was talking to Jack Knox a while ago and he told me Gus was a really "soft" dog. My first reaction was like, "Wow, if he thinks Gus is soft what are his 'tough' dogs like?"

 

But when Gus started going profoundly deaf, he lost touch with his handler and "reset to zero." We could hardly get him to go around the sheep - he'd get "stuck" at our feet and just close his eyes like "Just kill me now" when we scolded him.

 

When I realized that his hearing was gone and retaught him to communicate with us visually, he went back to the confident dog that he was when he came to us.

 

When he was a youngster, Jack and Kathy (Jack said he was mostly "Kathy's" - because he was "her kind of dog" ) taught him to find his Happy Place and work out "answers" as Jack calls them.

 

He's got to be reminded to stay out square in his flanks and keep his distance, or he can't think. I've found that small mechanical difficulties like that often seem to go hand in hand with a dog that's labeled "soft" or "stubborn." When you reshape the approach to the stock, suddenly you have a different dog.

 

I've seen it a lot - now I just wish I had the ability to identify the issues and the tools to work them through!

[Sue R]

When I realized that his hearing was gone and retaught him to communicate with us visually, he went back to the confident dog that he was when he came to us. I've seen it a lot - now I just wish I had the ability to identify the issues and the tools to work them through!

We were not using Megan, a dog of little ability, very much at all as we didn't really need her and you could not "communicate" with her once you sent her. Little did we realize that it wasn't only focus (or a sticky eye) but also hearing loss that was an issue.

 

When we needed to use any dog after we lost Bute and when Celt was on crate rest, we tried Megan - with whom I have been using hand signals in the house and on walks. Lo and behold, she did help us move the herd with me guiding her with hand signals - looking towards me when she needed guidance and responding to my hand signals (move up, this way toward me, away from me, and so on).

 

One thing that saddens me is that, at our last Kathy Knox clinic, we had a breakthrough with Bute. Kathy said she was having a hard time figuring him out and, since he would not work for her, I was not managing to try things that she might have tried - at least not as effectively as she would.

 

I came up with an idea and it worked like a charm. I was so eager to try it at Renee's but Bute died before we could give it a try. I did use it at home on cattle and it did show promise - it was very effective in the round pen and was apparently effective in the big field with the cow/calf herd.

 

This is a helpful conversation for me!

[juliepoudrier]

Julie, can you share about your two littermates on this topic?

I can try. Like Denice (who posted below your comment), I consider them to be pretty much at opposite ends of the spectrum. Pip has tended to be a bit slow and careful (at least once we started driving) and would look to me for direction whenever he was confused, to the point of looking at me too much. In fact, I've had to do confidence-building exercises with him--corner work, pushing sheep off the feed bunks, etc., to help him really feel comfortable doing a job without needing to check in with me and see if it's okay. As he has matured, he's beginning to show more of his mother's stock sense and a strong inclination to try to be my team mate. This really came home to me the other day when I was working on shedding with him and he was working his side without me having to say anything to him--a trait I dearly love in his mother. The downside to his "need assurance" approach to work (I guess this would be the "thinking" dog Karen refers to) is that it has taken longer for him to get to the same level of training as his mother (I wouldn't say he's there yet, in fact), who was running in open before she was three. But I do think that he will work out well in the long run, and he's already a dog with whom I can do chores easily at home--a pretty good team player who really tries to figure out what I want and give me that (with occasional yeehaw moments when he just wants to grab something). Whether his early neediness (for lack of a better term) will come back to haunt me at difficult times (at trials or at home) remains to be seen, I suppose, but if I had to predict now, I would say that his desire to please me will see him through the difficult stuff to a greater extent than perhaps his littermate sister's vastly different temperament would under similar circumstances.

 

In contrast, Phoebe is one of those "do anything, even if it's wrong" dogs, to a fault. She pretty much seems to just tune me right out and do her own thing when the pressure's on (and even when it's not, to be honest). This has been very frustrating for me because when she's good, she *very good,* but those very good works don't show up all that often and instead I spend a lot of time trying to get her to settle her mind and listen to me. I sometimes wonder if I am simply not the trainer for her since I can't seem to figure out a way to communicate with her and settle her mind as I need to in order to get the good work out of her that I know is in there. I've thought a lot about her lately, and it's funny, but when Karen first posted this topic, my thoughts went to Phoebe vs. Pip and how I really, really want Phoebe to "come around" and start working with me as a team player. It's caused me to question *myself* a lot. When this topic was first posted, I would have answered that I'd rather have a dog whose default is to do rather than to ask (I never considered Pip's hesitations to be refusals, but rather the result of insecurity and confusion), but I think a dog can be too much that way, and I think Phoebe is an example of that. She's so busy reacting that she never takes time to listen and hear what I really want. (Interestingly, Phoebe is the only one of my dogs that I ever had to use treats with to train a recall. She was incorrigible about running off to the pond when I'd call her as a youngster. I guess that was just a portent of things to come....)

 

Maybe Robin or Laura can talk about Nick, since he's a third littermate who has been close by and Robin certainly has seen all of them work numerous times. I would say that Nick falls between Pip and Phoebe on the spectrum of thinking vs. doing. Of the three littermates, he is perhaps the most like his mother. IMO, he's always been pretty much a team player with Laura, but without so much the lack of confidence in himself that Pip had (and still has sometimes), but nowhere near the rush headlong in and don't give a damn about anyone else attitude that Phoebe seems to have....

 

And if anyone has any brilliant ideas about approaches I can take with Phoebe, toss them out here. I'm pretty much ready to just put her up for six months or so, and perhaps just give up altogether, but I'm really not a quitter, and I'd like to figure out a way to get through to her.

 

I think the training approach used for all three has been pretty similar, so I agree that a lot of what's there is hardwired/genetic. In the case of a dog like Pip, training has certainly improved on what he started with. With Phoebe, not so much, but as Denise pointed out, that may well be because my training approach isn't suited to her. I have to think, though, that even with a different trainer--one to whom she responded better--when the going gets tough, I'd expect her to default to tuning the human out and doing her own thing....

 

In answer to Karen's questions, I would still think that a dog who is willing to get in there and just do something is probably a dog who will have what it takes over the long haul, but *only if* that get in there and do attitude is coupled with a real desire for teamwork with the human. Even despite all my difficulties with Phoebe, she is the dog who appeals to me most because I think if I could "harness" her and get her to work with me, she could be an incredible little dog. But that's a great big, elephant-sized if. So I guess I would still say that I would prefer a dog who tries to do something to one who waits for encouragement or direction, but I wouldn't dismiss one out of hand over the other--if Pip and Phoebe have taught me nothing else, it's that the dog you might think you'd choose still might not be the best teammate for you in the end.

 

J.

[Liz P]

How are your dogs on sheep vs off sheep?

 

Duncan - Big time thinker, on and off sheep. He would get stuck, try to work things out on his own for quite awhile then look for direction if he could not find a solution. He was willing and eager once I told him what to do, but sometimes he would just wait for directions.

 

Flyboy - Reactor on and off sheep. A very smart dog, but with such excellent instincts that it didn't matter if he just reacted because he was essentially always correct.

 

Freya - Reactor on and off sheep. When I try to slow her down to make her think she stops, her eyes bug out and she looks like she is about to explode. Even if she is wrong I am better off letting her work through things via trial and error.

 

Luna (Freya's aunt, sold) - Reactor on and off sheep, not a team player.

 

Loki (Freya's half brother, sold) - Thinker off sheep, sold him before he was on stock.

 

Sage (Scott x Freya, Scott is the sire of Denise Wall's May) - Thinker off sheep, thinker with quick reactions on sheep. He does sometimes get stuck and looks to me for direction but mostly he does react. I would say he has a nice balance, but right now we have some confidence issues to work through thanks to a loose pit bull.

 

Frankie - (Sage's littermate brother) - Thinker off sheep, reactor on sheep but starting to think a little more as he matures. Put him in a new situation off stock that he doesn't understand and he sits back and studies it before coming to any conclusions. However, on sheep he would rather do something than stop to think while he loses control. Once he comes into himself I feel like he will have a nice balance and do a lot more thinking (he is already starting to think more on sheep).

 

Juniper - baby dog, related to Flyboy, Frankie and Sage. I am very interested to see how she turns out. So far I see her pausing to consider her options but still jumping in and enjoying life.

[Pipedream Farm]

Julie, perhaps Pheobe just needs lots and lots of work. When you describe your frustrations with her it reminds me of BJ and me. Since the move though, I've been using her constantly for chores with the focus more on getting things done rather than schooling. At first it was really frustrating, but right now we're at a really good place together. The constant work has done a lot for her. I've had trouble in the past with her not being deep enough on her outruns, but now it seems (fingers crossed) to be falling into place on its own. The work itself has taught her more than I could ever show her because she is a bit more independent than I'm used to. I've also tried very hard to stay calm myself no matter what she's doing. She's actually started to respect my opinion more than she used to --maybe she just needed to grow up a little more. Anyhow, good luck with her. I know first hand about training a dog that as you say, makes you question yourself a lot.

Renee

[Denise Wall]

This answer is addressed to the question of the OP and not any of the dogs mentioned. Young dogs mature at different rates.

 

I like the ones that do "something" especially if they are talented dogs and have good minds. If they're talented and have good minds then the "something" they do is more than likely going to be correct or at least not so bad.

 

When I use to ride horses I noticed the dressage horses that were able to make it to the upper levels of training were not the best movers, or the best looking ones, or even the most talented ones, but instead mostly the pretty good ones with the mind to handle to pressure.

[juliepoudrier]

Hey Renee,

I've actually thought that the best thing for Phoebe would be to have lots of chore work to do every day. Unfortunately, I just don't have enough sheep or chores (at this time of year) to give her what I think she needs. I'd love to ship her off to a big farm (with someone I trust) where she could get plenty of plain old work every day. I think you're right that it would make a big difference.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

I've noticed with JJ that there is a direct corrulation between his desire to try and the pressure that he is feeling based on draws and balance, if the pressure in not real high he will try but then may try to divert to what he really wants to do or what is easier if he has the chance. If the pressure is higher he may just look at me as if he does not understand, and when he finally does take the plunge it is rushed as if he is frantically trying to find a comfortable place to be.

 

I don't know if it will help you with Pheobe, Julie, but I made a pact with myself last week in regards to JJ. I kenneled/crated up all my other dogs and used him exclusively for everything, even if it was just to accompany me to the barn or mail box. I also don't have a ton of work, and with the heat it's kinda hard to create work, so my answer was to give him all of the work and then maybe create little tasks the highlighted off balance work here and there.

 

I've caught myself more then once wanting to take someone else at feeding time or when it is time to bring the sheep in, it's way easier to take Jake or Vicky stand by the gate and send one of them, as opposed to walking partway out with JJ, making sure the his mind stays with me until I send him and then prepare to do what ever I have to to encourage him to find the right answers and handle the stock properly, but it is paying off.

 

Yesterday, for the first time he drove the sheep off the feed bunks and held them away from me without me having to correct him for wanting to leak around to balance, he was actually comfortable staying at the places I had put him. Another major gain was when I asked him to drive the rams off of one feed bunk and take them to another, typically he would be fighting me with all his power to get to a place where he can get around the sheep which ends up bringing them to me as opposed to taking them someplace else. He actually moved around the sheep quiet and smoothly and stopped where I asked him to allowing more of a cross drive to happen, as opposed to rushing on around making it impossible for me to get him stopped until he arrived to a location where he wanted to stop.

 

He is also getting better at not looking for work but rather waiting for me to give him the work. As he is looking to me for direction he is staying in closer proximity of me, as opposed to his old bombing around the yard with me trying to bring him back to me.

 

 

Deb

[kelpiegirl]

I have a dog who has loads of instinct, and is *finally* coming into team playing ways. When things go wonky, she just would default to doing what she should- if I were paralzyed, and just needed to make sure the sheep are under control. What seems to have helped a bit for us, is for me to see her going into that over the top look- generally I see this when we are starting to work. I call her to me, and am stern, and gently, but firmly get into her head. It has helped. I was about to give up on her, but I thought a bit of maturing and me keeping the rock steady one would help. The last time I worked her was a supreme example of how far she has come- faced with what would just send her into default she held it together like a gymnast on the balance beam.

[Debbie Meier]

The last time I worked her was a supreme example of how far she has come- faced with what would just send her into default she held it together like a gymnast on the balance beam.

 

Isn't it a great feeling to see them come together like that?

[Sue R]

The constant work has done a lot for her... The work itself has taught her more than I could ever show her ... I've also tried very hard to stay calm myself no matter what she's doing. She's actually started to respect my opinion more than she used to...

This is so similar to my experiences with Celt during calving season for the heifers, where we went out daily and checked for new calves, and then brought those mothers and babies that were ready through a few small fields to supplement the mothers at the working area. Or when we are bringing in weanlings for supplement twice a day in early fall. Without their mothers to lead them, they take some work to get into a routine. Both jobs take good stock reading and patience to get the job done with little stress (on everyone's part).

 

Just working daily, letting Celt take his time and make decisions, making quiet corrections when needed, staying calm myself, and working quietly did wonders for him, broke the heifers and calves nicely, and helped our partnership. He was greatly improved for some time after.

 

However, now with little work if any most days, and only some work every now and then, I find him to be more anxious, less businesslike, and less biddable. I think there is a great deal of merit to frequent work, even if it is fairly small jobs. Real work, not drilling, but accomplishing something and letting the dog realize that you are accomlishing the work together.

[Pipedream Farm]

In terms of mind, I guess it's a toss up which I prefer. I have one of each right now. I am fortunate to have two good dogs right now. Bette is very talented, but she really wants to please and is likely to wait for direction at times. I'm sometimes frustrated by this because she's got plenty of brains and talent to make her own decisions. As far as if it was trained or just in her. I've seen this trait in her from the beginning (I've had her from a pup and trained her myself). I more or less let her train herself because I saw this in her, plus she was quite talented and really didn't need much other than let her work. I can take her out to do chores and know that I'm not likely to have anything too chaotic happen. I'm not always up for a big adventure first thing in the morning! Bette's pretty cool headed which I love.

BJ on the other hand is much more likely to fly off the handle. She's more likely to "do" first and ask questions later if she encountered an unusual situation. That can be good or bad, just depends on what you're doing. I had to train her much more mechanical than I like. I knew early on that she was the type of dog that needed a solid stop or I'd never be able to do anything with her. She needed to be trained this way. Although she has plenty of natural in her, she needed to understand what I expected of her early on. She's the type that gets so wound up because she's so keen. In the end she's turning into a pretty good listener. With her, I'm not as sure if it was in her or trained in her. I would agree with Denise, though, that she'd default to do her own thing when the chips are down. So I guess I like having one of each for a well rounded arsenal so to speak. Again, neither type would be any good without talent.

Renee

[Carson Crazies]

Maybe Robin or Laura can talk about Nick, since he's a third littermate who has been close by and Robin certainly has seen all of them work numerous times. I would say that Nick falls between Pip and Phoebe on the spectrum of thinking vs. doing. Of the three littermates, he is perhaps the most like his mother. IMO, he's always been pretty much a team player with Laura, but without so much the lack of confidence in himself that Pip had (and still has sometimes), but nowhere near the rush headlong in and don't give a damn about anyone else attitude that Phoebe seems to have....

 

I'd agree with that. Nick even early on was sort of in the middle between looking for direction and going on and trying things. I'd describe him as more of a... try things but open to suggestions sort of dog. I'm not sure what his default will be when the chips are down, really (I don't have enough experience to predict that). I *can* say that most of the time he does the right thing anyway - which is good because sometimes as a novice handler *I* don't know always know what the right thing is fast enough. He saves my bacon quite regularly, and like Julie says he's always been pretty much a team player with me. I would think that this would continue to be his default behavior - trying to work things out but taking my input as well.

 

That being said he did go through some times where he needed MORE input, and times when he didn't WANT much input, but he always seems to gravitate back to the middle somehow. In fact, he rarely *asks* or waits for input so much as just accepts it when I give it, if that makes sense (except when he thinks I'm dead wrong, lol).

[gvmama]

" I think there is a great deal of merit to frequent work, even if it is fairly small jobs. Real work, not drilling, but accomplishing something and letting the dog realize that you are accomlishing the work together."

 

I was thinking the above as I drove home from a local ranch with my 3 BC's. Also, I was dreaming that I had a home with enough land to work sheep. (Sigh) Diana Gautier says "Get a hold of a dog's mind, and the body will follow." There's some truth in that statement!

Suzanne