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A color question of a different sort...


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I, too, believe that there aren't any definite links between color and temperament.

 

I didn't read Julie that way at all. I read that she isn't seeing this in the reds of the bloodlines she works with.

 

I have, and do see it around here with what I work with. It's not all lines, but it is in some.

 

Some. Not all.

 

I've been very careful to be clear on this. Not accepting this would be a recipe for dissapointment when selecting a pup from those particular lines.

 

Ejano - I too see a tendancy to want to label Robin, but I'm not really sure why and I'm pondering that right now without a clue. More importantly I see a tendancy to compare him to his brother. That concerns me most of all. Stop looking at how he's different from the other pup, or the same, or what color he is. If he's blowing into everything without thought, then start working with him to think about what he's doing. You won't change his genetics, but you will certainly be able to modify their expression if you start young.

 

As for paint horse thing: I love them personally, and was rocking and rolling with a paint dressage horse (barely a horse, just an inch over pony) long before it was popular. I will say that white feet are an issue with those guys, in ways that all the other colors never had an issue with. Lack of pigmentation/excessive white pigmentation is known for specific issues - from greater immune issues, to great sunburn risk, to bad feet. There are reasons for stereotypes. You can't let them rule you, but you do need to make it part of the overall decision when puchasing/adopting or breeding.

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I didn't read Julie that way at all. I read that she isn't seeing this in the reds of the bloodlines she works with.

Actually what I said is that I *have* seen some temperament issues (mostly dog aggressiveness among males of the line) in red dogs of the bloodlines I deal with, but I'm not sure it's entirely genetic or if the propensity is there (genetic) but is only expressed in dogs who are raised a particular way (i.e., with owners who aren't quick to nip it in the bud quite firmly and early on). But I don't think one can say across the board that red dogs = aggressive dogs. Some lines may have that tendency, but I don't think Wendy is saying *all red dogs,* but instead is saying the same thing I am, in some lines (and we could be talking about the same lines for all I know) a tendency toward aggressiveness exists among the red dogs. That's not the same thing as saying all red dogs are aggressive though. And I think that's what Nancy is picking up on. I've certainly seen enough aggressive B&W or tri dogs to not be willing to label a color with a type of temperament.

 

In *my own* red dogs, I don't see the "damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead" attitude Liz keeps mentioning (although I do have at least one dog with that sort of personality, but she ain't red), and interestingly, two of them are from the bloodlines I mention above, and one of those is fear aggressive. He's also the result of a very close breeding and was raised with very little human interaction, and both of those may have contributed to or exacerbated the fear aggressive tendency. And that ties back in with my comment that such dogs may have a propensity that can either be allowed to blossom or can be squashed, depending on the upbringing.

 

I agree with Wendy that comparing Robin and Brodie, other than as an exercise of curiosity, isn't a good thing. Dogs are all individuals, with individual strengths and weaknesses and personalities. While one personality may suit you better than another, the range of personalities ensures that we all will find dogs that suit us as individual humans.

 

As for the paint horse, I think you answered your own comment when you noted that the farrier could have had a bad experience with a paint horse. People tend to generalize pretty quickly, whether it's justified or not.

 

J.

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Ejano - I too see a tendancy to want to label Robin, but I'm not really sure why and I'm pondering that right now without a clue. More importantly I see a tendancy to compare him to his brother.

Easy there. It's okay for me to compare because I"m interested in the two of them (in a much more unsophisticated, untrained way ) in the same manner that a scientist might study siblings....it's not like I'm wanting one to be more like the other. Brodie is a piebald, Robin is a red tri.....I don't know much about genetics and I'm curious about the nature/nurture thing although that's already pretty much blown because they aren't being raised exactly the same.

 

 

I talk more about Robin because he's "my" dog. Brodie spends the bulk of his time with my husband. It's also okay for me to label (assess would be a better word) Robin because he's my dog and I'm learning what he is and what his capabilities are. Some people have told me to not be in a hurry to neuter him until I see what his capabilities are, but I've decided that there's enough of his gene pool around I don't need to worry about taking the next great dog out of the line. At the moment I don't "label" him as anything other than a really nice pup that likely has the potential to do anything I ask of him and as I said in my last post, his presence has been a light in some very dark days and I'm delighted that I have him. I don't give a darn if he's red, black or purple. More than one person has looked at him and seen a mischief maker ...perhaps because he doesn't hang back and act shy...he's right there asking for attention...who knows...their second comment is Look at those paws! I don't think he makes any more mischief than any other pup and yeah, he's got big feet.

 

Like other dog owners, I do want to understand his motivations so that I can give him cues that he can understand. In common with you, I"m not interested in pounding stuff in to his head and calling it training. I want to explain in a manner that he understands and it's a sweet moment when he looks up and says, "Yeah, I get it." His excitement to me is no big deal..he'll grow out of it and I consider it a positive. Once the excitement is under control, his innate forwardness will take him wherever I ask him to go without question.

 

I compared him and Brodie as a philosophical question -- which pup would you choose? The one who moves forward immediately or the one who hangs back and assesses the situation on his own before responding.

 

Personally, I think they're both fine, they just need different approaches to their training and their jobs. Robin might work better in a constantly controlled situation and Brodie might excel in "free will" tasks where he's given a job to do and he gets to figure out how to do it -- i.e. getting geese off a golf course...ooops, there I go comparing again....:rolleyes: but then again, they're my dogs :D.

 

White flag here...my original question was why don't the old time stockmen like red dogs and your responses have wandered pretty far away from why that might be though I'd agree that some of the responses are most likely.

 

Liz

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Hello everyone,

I believe that the ancestors of our modern Border Collies were selected for their innate ability as working sheepdogs, and that they were not primarily selected for their coat color and color patterns. Also, it could be that by selecting for superior working ability, the typical Irish Spotting and/or Piebald color patterns automatically expressed themselves. There was a study done in Siberia in the late 1950's which focused on selectively breeding captive bred wild foxes for their friendliness / tameness traits. In this study, after many generations, the resulting offspring were no longer typically colored, but instead they had Irish Spotting and Piebald color patterns. Here is a link to a brief summary of that study, complete with photos.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

 

Hi Nancy and all,

I remember seeing information on this study on a PBS - Nova special about the evolution of dogs....the scientist James Serpell won my heart when he showed a genuine admiration for Border Collies, saying "You can do just about anything with these dogs."

 

I checked out the site you provided and noted the difference in colors over the years of breeding - in fact, I think some would agree that the last photo of the black and white pups with blue eyes looked pretty darn close to the "foxy" style Border Collie face.

 

Wikipedia has a brief entry on the experiment and the connection between color and domestic canine traits:

 

Dmitri Belyaev

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

Dmitri Konstantinovich Belyaev (Russian: Дмитрий Константинович Беляев, 1917-1985) - was a Russian scientist, and academician. In the 1950s Dmitri Belyaev and his team spent many years breeding the silver fox (Vulpes vulpes) and selecting only those individuals that showed the least fear of humans. Eventually, Belyaev's team selected only those that showed the most positive response to humans. He ended up with a population of foxes whose behavior and appearance was significantly changed. After about ten generations of controlled breeding, these foxes no longer showed any fear of humans and often wagged their tails and licked their human caretakers to show affection. They also started to have spotted coats, floppy ears, and curled tails.

 

At the time, biologists were puzzled as to how dogs evolved to have different coats than wolves. They couldn't figure how dogs got those genes from wolves. Belyaev saw his foxes as a perfect opportunity to find out how this happened. He and his colleagues began performing tests on the animals. When they checked the adrenaline levels of the domesticated foxes, they found that they were significantly lower than normal. This is feasible, because foxes that are not afraid of humans are going to produce less adrenaline around them. This explains the foxes' tameness, but it doesn't really explain their multicolor coats. The scientists theorized that adrenaline shares a biochemical pathway with melanin, which controls pigment production.

Quote from NOVA's 'Dogs and More Dogs' program

NARRATOR: Suddenly, it all started to make sense. As Belyaev bred his foxes for tameness, over the generations their bodies began producing different levels of a whole range of hormones. These hormones, in turn, set off a cascade of changes that somehow triggered a surprising degree of genetic variation.

JAMES SERPELL: Just the simple act of selecting for tameness destabilized the genetic make up of these animals in such a way that all sorts of stuff that you would never normally see in a wild population suddenly appeared.

 

Dmitri Belyaev was director of the Institute of Cytology and Genetics (IC&G) of the Russian Academy of Sciences from 1959-1985. He made significant contributions to the establishment of the IC&G and made efforts in the restoration and advancement of genetics in the USSR.

 

End Wiki Quote//

 

HEre's a link to the NOva program, Dogs and More DOgs.. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/dogs/

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I had a paint horse (red and white, actually :rolleyes: ) as a teen-ager and the blacksmith criticized him every time he came to care for his feet, swearing that all paint/piebald horses were obnoxious and stupid. Actually, Amigo was pretty smart. He was well mannered, gave no problems in trimming and shoeing and he learned all kinds of tricks, including a few self-taught escape tricks that were particularly clever. So why did the blacksmith not like him? For all I know somewhere along the line a paint horse kicked him in the head and knocked a few marbles loose :D. >>>>>>

 

 

No offense towards you, but I would say your horseshoer was some sort of an idiot. Many people have preconceived ideas of many things, including all " insert word " are stupid, agreesive, weak etc. I take their opinion for what it's worth, not much. With your horse, same things are said about the white feet ( which all Paints do not have but that does not seem to enter into the "statistics"). And any horse with white on the face can sunburn, so that's another falicy. Not to mention there is more than one reason horses sunburn.

 

I say enjoy your dog and be as color blind as possible.

Genetics play a bigger role in your dog's makeup than just the color. So I would say if your dog is a certain genetic type (assuming he was not ruined by the human) than you have a dog who is a certain type who is also red, not a certain type of dog who is that way just because he is red.

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I had a paint horse (red and white, actually :rolleyes: ) as a teen-ager and the blacksmith criticized him every time he came to care for his feet, swearing that all paint/piebald horses were obnoxious and stupid. Actually, Amigo was pretty smart. He was well mannered, gave no problems in trimming and shoeing and he learned all kinds of tricks, including a few self-taught escape tricks that were particularly clever. So why did the blacksmith not like him? For all I know somewhere along the line a paint horse kicked him in the head and knocked a few marbles loose :D. >>>>>>

 

 

No offense towards you, but I would say your horseshoer was some sort of an idiot. Many people have preconceived ideas of many things, including all " insert word " are stupid, agreesive, weak etc. I take their opinion for what it's worth, not much. With your horse, same things are said about the white feet ( which all Paints do not have but that does not seem to enter into the "statistics"). And any horse with white on the face can sunburn, so that's another falicy. Not to mention there is more than one reason horses sunburn.

 

I say enjoy your dog and be as color blind as possible.

Genetics play a bigger role in your dog's makeup than just the color. So I would say if your dog is a certain genetic type (assuming he was not ruined by the human) than you have a dog who is a certain type who is also red, not a certain type of dog who is that way just because he is red.

 

 

That incident was over thirty years ago....Amigo is long gone. but you got that right about the blacksmith....he didn't come back....you don't tell a 14 year old kid her horse is stupid. And yes, white feet on horses are thought to be softer and more prone to injury....

 

 

. My original question was a general one - why is there a lingering suspicion of red dogs in herding circles. There is some evidence that color is linked to certain behavior traits so those who suggested the oldtime stockmen were suspicious of red dogs because they were thought to "oddities" and that belief continues as a cultural more is the most reasonable explanation.

 

Liz

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:rolleyes::D:D:D here, but might be taken very seriously in conformation circles.

 

OT, a little here -- there's a need for explanation in a breed standard and that one just might be worked in to justify the reason for a white blaze.

 

Good thing no one takes me seriously, they'll never include it if they know who wrote it! :D

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  • 1 month later...
Hi Julie,

I'm not looking for all sorts of reasons to label Robin, just curious about the links between color and temperament and explanations for old time prejudices. I'm a writer as well as an educator and as such a collector of seemingly useless trivia.

 

I had a paint horse (red and white, actually :rolleyes: ) as a teen-ager and the blacksmith criticized him every time he came to care for his feet, swearing that all paint/piebald horses were obnoxious and stupid. Actually, Amigo was pretty smart. He was well mannered, gave no problems in trimming and shoeing and he learned all kinds of tricks, including a few self-taught escape tricks that were particularly clever. So why did the blacksmith not like him? For all I know somewhere along the line a paint horse kicked him in the head and knocked a few marbles loose :D.

 

And I did say in another post that I was enjoying watching both of the pups grow and develop different personalities. I love my little Robin - he's a very special dog having come to me at a particularly challenging time in my life after losing Scotty and receiving a diagnosis of cancer in one horrible week. Robin was born the day the robins flocked back to our area and brought me new hope, distracting me from "the Big C" and with the chemotherapy done and a clean bill of health, he continues to help me heal and get back in condition with our lessons and just generally chasing him and Brodie around. Personally, I think Robin is the greatest thing to walk the earth since my son was born :D and he would be whatever his color and I know my husband feels the same about Brodie as all of you on these boards feel about your dogs. :D.

 

Liz

 

A lot of horsemen don't like horses with a lot of white on them for the same reason that they don't like palominos. Tobiano paints frequently have white socks and as a result, light-colored hooves. It is commonly held that light colored hooves are softer so they wear faster when the horse is barefoot, and have to be shod oftener because their soft or shelly hooves don't hold horseshoe nails as long/ well. But I never heard anything that would suggest that paint horses are any less smart than any other kind. Me thinks your blacksmith had issues with Paint horses for some reason that he was reluctant to face or discuss. Such people often label various types of animals or people as stupid, when what they really mean is that they just don't like them. I have a friend who is in most respects intelligent and sensible. But he has this notion that African Americans can't be taught higher math. Where did he get this absurd notion? It's a completely indefensible idea, but he clings to it like a limpet. Go figure...

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Interesting question. Ceana is a tri blk/wht and I have noticed that her brown "eye brows and eyeliner" make her eyes appear bigger. I have always wondered if this type of coloring is an advantage as a predator and thus lends her an advantage with the sheep. I am really interested to see what everyone has to say about this.

 

I read about a study done where foxes were domesticated. Their coats began changing and became more multi-colored and "appealing," to people as the domesticated. As much as we all advocate for working breeding for border collies, and I doubt many of us would turn a dog away based on look/color, we all seem to have our favorites and are attracted to certain coat types. It doesn't mean we don't like the other colors, we just find a certain type even more appealing. The coats could have developed as an advantage for the dogs, to make us people want to feed them and take care of them.

 

Another thought about the coats is that a two toned dog is easier to see than a single colored dog. The two different tones may make it easier for a sheppard to spot their dog in all types of weather and various types of times during the day or night.

 

 

Eyebrows and eyeliner are very common on the faces of social animals. Look at the "white" eyeliner around lions or wolves eyes. It makes their facial expressions easier to read. If you are a well-armed predator with complex pack/ pride social behaviors it is a big help to know what your pack-mates are thinking. It helps to avoid conflicts escalating into bloody fights. I think the adaptation is one that is used primarily between members of the same species, as opposed to between predators and prey. So I don't think sheep would necessarily make much use of that information, but another dog would.

As for white markings, they are very persistent genetically. You find them on wolves from time to time - especially pups. Many of they juvenile markings disappear as the animal's adult pelage grows in. It occurs in bears, wild foxes, and other wild animals. It is usually selected against by making the animal less effective at concealing itself as prey or as predator, but it constantly resurfaces.

It seems to me that during the time dogs were first being domesticated and put to work, white markings would be an easy way to tell from a distance if the creature prowling around your flock was your dog or his not-so-distant relative, the wolf. Reason enough to select for white markings! And since they are so persistent genetically, they would be easy to encourage. From there it is a simple step to keeping bi-colored animals because even when they ceased to closely resemble their wild forebears, they would be easy to spot at a distance or in poor light, and that would be a great help to a shepherd who migrated constantly behind a semi-wild flock of sheep or goats.

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I watched a program last year on Nat Geo called "In the Womb: Dogs." Toward the very end, they were talking about pigmentation. They made the statement that "pigmentation is linked to temperament," specifically mentioning the red gene as being "high strung" (I think that was their words) (however one defines that).

 

A

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I watched a program last year on Nat Geo called "In the Womb: Dogs." Toward the very end, they were talking about pigmentation. They made the statement that "pigmentation is linked to temperament," specifically mentioning the red gene as being "high strung" (I think that was their words) (however one defines that).

 

A

 

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that (human) redheads tend to have higher pain thresholds. Anyone know if that's accurate, and if so whether there's any similar study done on dogs?

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I vaguely recall reading somewhere that (human) redheads tend to have higher pain thresholds. Anyone know if that's accurate, and if so whether there's any similar study done on dogs?

 

 

Don't know about pain threshold, but we have a lot of redheads in my family and they are always treated very carefully by anesthesiologists. Apparently, tolerance to pain meds is distinctly different in redheads - as in, they typically can't tolerate sedation as well as non-redheads.

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I vaguely recall reading somewhere that (human) redheads tend to have higher pain thresholds. Anyone know if that's accurate, and if so whether there's any similar study done on dogs?

 

ooky- it is not that we don't tolerate anesthesia, we just require more, I once woke up during a dental procedure (the kind you DON'T want to wake up from, YIKES).

 

As a redhead myself, I get nothing but grief during any medical procedure I have ever had done (redhead are also prone to excess bleeding as well as requiring 20% more anesthesia), plus all the comments about my temper and the fact I cannot go outside in the summer for risk of being burnt to a crisp. I am pretty sure redheads have more stereotypes then blonds :rolleyes:

 

I admit being a redhead myself I am drawn to the red dogs (obviously). My friend has Maya's litter mate (also a red) and they are as different in temperament as night and day. Maya is intense, careful and even a bit shy, her littermate is bold, goofy and a lot more distracted than Maya is.

 

Here is a study about human redheads requiring more anesthesia http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/487261

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That's interesting read, Carlasl! I think the trouble with my aunts has come from the way they anesthetize them for major surgeries (like bowel resections) - the line between giving them enough so they wouldn't wake up and too much to where their breathing might stop was apparently very, very tricky! When recovery times went long, there were lots of anesthesia discussions.

 

I'm a brunette, but woke up during a surgery to remove impacted wisdom teeth, so I know what THAT's like. Ick.

 

I don't have any idea how human color genetics relates to dog (bb, etc). I really like red dogs too, and hope to have one someday!

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