A color question of a different sort...

[JaderBug]

I took Jade to a BBQ last night and a friend was there who tends to have lots of questions about anything and everything but I think she brought up a good one last night- why are Border Collies colored the way they are? She was curious if there was a purpose for the white tipped tails, the white blaze on the face, or why their bellies and legs would be white, especially for a working dog who would get dirty a lot.

 

I know Border Collies aren't a color-based breed and never really have been (at least not the working ones), and I know that BCs come in just about any color/white amount imaginable, but I was wondering if there was a purpose back in the day for the 'traditional' markings you see on a lot of collies? Why did the early breeders decide that this was a good look for the dogs?

[Maralynn]

I know Border Collies aren't a color-based breed and never really have been (at least not the working ones), and I know that BCs come in just about any color/white amount imaginable, but I was wondering if there was a purpose back in the day for the 'traditional' markings you see on a lot of collies? Why did the early breeders decide that this was a good look for the dogs?

 

Do you think they decided this was a good look for the dogs, or did this look happen as they bred for the working ability? I'd tend to think the look came along with the type.

[Ooky]

I've also wondered this myself. The typical BC coloration is so anti-cryptic, yet they do the most "wolf-like" job. I wonder if there isn't at least a mild but actual stockwork advantage to the typical coloration (by this meaning any sort of white flash on chest, face,or tail that contrasts boldly with a darker color, with an overall predominance of darker color).

 

I think the blotches of white against a dark color would make the dogs much more visible to the sheep, which you would want them to be so you could move them. Not that a husky-colored dog is invisible to sheep, but it could also maybe sneak close easier in tall grass, perhaps making it easier for such a dog to inadvertently come into the bubble? Or perhaps even the clear visibility of a boldly marked dog affects the size of the bubble, because the sheep feel safer, knowing they can easily keep track of the dog. A BC could even "show off" his white patches at times it most wanted to be visible to the sheep, especially with frontal white patches by turning into the flock. The flock might more easily see the turn in due to the change in color. Smaller movements by the dog might be needed.

 

This could be a "just so" story I'm making up here. Clearly coloration isn't a big deal, and I've seen very black kelpies do great work and the sheep saw them for sure. I also think some of the original color choice in BC would be from what they call a "founder effect" - when so many individuals in a pop. go back to one or a small group of ancestors, by chance whatever those ancestors were will be massively represented in the resulting population. But maybe in this case it could be a useful coincidence.

[sweet_ceana]

Interesting question. Ceana is a tri blk/wht and I have noticed that her brown "eye brows and eyeliner" make her eyes appear bigger. I have always wondered if this type of coloring is an advantage as a predator and thus lends her an advantage with the sheep. I am really interested to see what everyone has to say about this.

 

I read about a study done where foxes were domesticated. Their coats began changing and became more multi-colored and "appealing," to people as the domesticated. As much as we all advocate for working breeding for border collies, and I doubt many of us would turn a dog away based on look/color, we all seem to have our favorites and are attracted to certain coat types. It doesn't mean we don't like the other colors, we just find a certain type even more appealing. The coats could have developed as an advantage for the dogs, to make us people want to feed them and take care of them.

 

Another thought about the coats is that a two toned dog is easier to see than a single colored dog. The two different tones may make it easier for a sheppard to spot their dog in all types of weather and various types of times during the day or night.

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

I believe that the ancestors of our modern Border Collies were selected for their innate ability as working sheepdogs, and that they were not primarily selected for their coat color and color patterns. Also, it could be that by selecting for superior working ability, the typical Irish Spotting and/or Piebald color patterns automatically expressed themselves. There was a study done in Siberia in the late 1950's which focused on selectively breeding captive bred wild foxes for their friendliness / tameness traits. In this study, after many generations, the resulting offspring were no longer typically colored, but instead they had Irish Spotting and Piebald color patterns. Here is a link to a brief summary of that study, complete with photos.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[JaderBug]

Another thought about the coats is that a two toned dog is easier to see than a single colored dog. The two different tones may make it easier for a sheppard to spot their dog in all types of weather and various types of times during the day or night.

 

 

This is a good point- I know last night when the two dogs were running around in the dark, many times we couldn't see Jax, who is completely chocolate colored, but we could about always see Jade's white running around in the dark... but if the grass were tall I doubt we would have been able to see her...

 

PS those colored fox kits are really cute! Interesting that they appear to have the 'typical' markings of a Border Collie... maybe that's the answer to my question??

[SoloRiver]

The Irish spotting mutation (the fox studies refer to the gene responsible as the star gene) seems to be closely related to whatever genes are being selected for in domestication across canids, and is found across most dog breeds that have white, so the typical Border Collie white pattern predates the origin of the breed and probably all breeds. My guess is that it's just founder effect -- whatever dogs they started out with happened to have it, and it was never selected against, so it persists.

[Pam Wolf]

Way back when I first got started I heard about a study done that showed that sheep responded better to a blk/wht dog than other colors.

[ejano]

This is a silly answer, but I was once told by an "old timer" that if you've got white sheep, you want a black dog so you can sort the dog out from the sheep. The white tip on the tail is common in many dogs, wolves, and coyotes.

 

As for the "eyebrows" -- again an old standard, but I understand that herding/guard dogs should them because even when their eyes are shut, they appear to be awake and watchful....

 

In truth, as everyone says, it probably goes back to foundation stock.....but....how does this explain the red and whites? I understand that the reds date back to a Scottish dog that was a top performer, but where did he come from???

 

 

Liz

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

When working sheep, dogs are more likely to stop or lie down on balance (in a position to hold the sheep to the handler). When starting young dogs, it is usually the only place they will stop. So when I was even more of a novice handler than I am now, and starting my first dogs, my instructor used to tease me that the blaze on their faces was for me: when I needed to take the dog off the stock, I was to walk straight in at the blaze (to avoid inadvertently being off to the side and off balance ever so slightly, which was likely to cause the dog to get up and flank around again). Seems to work.

[NCStarkey]

Hello Everyone,

 

First, let me preface this by stating that I am NOT a geneticist, and I have little knowledge of canine genetics. But, here are my thoughts about the non-traditional colored dogs in the heritage of the modern Border Collie.

 

Elanjo wrote, "In truth, as everyone says, it probably goes back to foundation stock.....but....how does this explain the red and whites? I understand that the reds date back to a Scottish dog that was a top performer, but where did he come from???"

 

I believe that the genetics for colors other than traditional black and white (Irish Spotted or Piebald) have always been there. However, it is likely that most shepherds "culled" the pups that were not traditionally colored and marked. Red and white pups and predominately white pups were probably "not allowed to live" (to use the words of one long time shepherd I know), therefore a precious few made it to become acclaimed sheepdogs.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[ErinKate]

I wonder if the traditional colors with the dark around the eyes helped them by the simple fact that you can't tell where they are looking!!! Just like football players put black under their eyes, could really be the same deal. Just a passing thought.

[ejano]

Hello Everyone,

 

First, let me preface this by stating that I am NOT a geneticist, and I have little knowledge of canine genetics. But, here are my thoughts about the non-traditional colored dogs in the heritage of the modern Border Collie.

 

Elanjo wrote, "In truth, as everyone says, it probably goes back to foundation stock.....but....how does this explain the red and whites? I understand that the reds date back to a Scottish dog that was a top performer, but where did he come from???"

 

I believe that the genetics for colors other than traditional black and white (Irish Spotted or Piebald) have always been there. However, it is likely that most shepherds "culled" the pups that were not traditionally colored and marked. Red and white pups and predominately white pups were probably "not allowed to live" (to use the words of one long time shepherd I know), therefore a precious few made it to become acclaimed sheepdogs.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

 

 

Hi Nancy,

I am told that the reds aren't favored by today's handlers because "there's never been a top red dog" so your suggestion has some validity. That's okay - my Robin is just fine with me, though I do have to post an up to date picture...he's growing into himself now and doesn't look quite as silly.

 

 

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

Liz,

I think that thinking (no reds because there's never been a top red dog) is a little backward. I think that many shepherds preferred black and white so simply didn't choose red pups in a litter. If fewer pups of any color are not chosen and then worked or trialed, certainly there will be fewer examples of "top dogs of color." You have to have them out there before you can have a top dog, after all. A red dog won the International Supreme a few years ago, but there is a persistent bias against red or mostly white dogs among old time stock people and shepherds. Red survived over time because it's recessive and so could be carried through generations by black and white parents (that is, even if you cull red offspring, the red can continue to be carried in a line). Likewise, the piebald or white factored dog can throw an all white or mostly white pup when bred to another white factored dog, so white dogs have survived through the generations. Merle, on the other hand, is a dominant gene, and so if shepherds selected against it, it would slowly disappear from the gene pool. I believe that's the main reason you can still find plenty of white or red dogs in the working population, but see precious few merles.

 

The irish markings of the typical black and white border collie are not unique to the breed, as Melanie pointed out. As the fox study shows, that color scheme apparently came along with domestication.

 

J.

[ejano]

A red dog won the International Supreme a few years ago, but there is a persistent bias against red or mostly white dogs among old time stock people and shepherds.

J.

 

Hi Julie, it would seem the old timers equate intelligence with the coat color? By extension, the standard black and white tuxedo marked Border Collie, having more opportunities to prove his/her ability, would be bred more often, producing equally intelligent, able similarly marked offspring (and as you pointed out, the occasional red who would be culled).

out

I do wonder about temperament in relation to coat color. Robin came from a litter of three red and whites, though he was a red tri, and three black and whites. All of the red and whites seemed more forward, more balanced in temperament and easily accepted new situations. The black and whites, also two females and one male, seemed uniformly more shy, hanging back a bit. This difference in temperament is still evident in Robin and Brodie at nearly five months old. They've been exposed to exactly the same situations and Brodie still exhibits a marked shyness while Robin is devil may care...plunging happily into new experiences.

[juliepoudrier]

Liz,

I don't think the author is using the color red to describe the color of a dog but rather the personality. That is, you could have a black dog that is red on the author's scale (for example, I would label my Phoebe as a red--highly strung--dog, and she's black and white and so heavily ticked as to appear grey on her white areas). I haven't read the book, but I suspect it's an oversimplified analysis of dogs.

 

As to your other assumption, I don't think old timers equated color with intelligence. Many farmers/shepherds are conservative people. They would tend to go with the more normal colors (i.e, B&W) not because they equated it with intelligence or anything else in the dog but because that was the normal color. Someone pointed out in a thread some time ago that red dogs were harder to see on heather covered hills. I have noticed that my red dogs tend to blend in to the landscape more. It's more likely that color choices were made for practical reasons like that than anyone presuming the one color denotes a smarter dog than the other. After all, if they were selectively choosing B&W over anything else, then they wouldn't really have other color dogs to compare the B&W dogs too.

 

I think you're looking too hard for an explanation when in fact it's something as simple as B&W is the "standard" color and so that's what we (the folks developing the breed) choose.....

 

J.

[Lenajo]

There was an article in Working Sheepdog News quite a few years ago, where a researcher noted that anywhere in the world that dogs were selected for the controlling/herding of livestock the Irish Spotting Pattern (blaze, collar, feet - white) was prevalent. From the flock dogs of Saudi Arabia, to the British Isles, and the ranches of Brazil...the same markings on the herding dogs regardless of their "breed". Apparently this color pattern comes along with the genes appropriate for domestication and breeding for herding work

 

ejano - littermates can be as little as 18% similar in genetic make up according to my genetics expert friend. It's not uncommon for them to be very different, espeically in low COI (inbreeding) level litters as most Border Collies are. Also, as I've mentioned before, littermates raised together often have these issues - the dominent pushy one just gets more so, and the shy quiet one gets worse. They have to be seperated and helped individually to both move towards as balanced in temperament as they can be. It has nothing to do with what color they are.

[Lenajo]

As to your other assumption, I don't think old timers equated color with intelligence. Many farmers/shepherds are conservative people. They would tend to go with the more normal colors (i.e, B&W) not because they equated it with intelligence or anything else in the dog but because that was the normal color.

 

Unlike pet people, farmers and livestock oriented people naturally, and usually correctly, associate "oddities" or reccessives with negative concequences. A farmer knows through experience that animals that are markedly away from the norm often carry genetic issues and other factors he will not want in his pack/flock/herd.

 

When there was no money to be made of "extra" pups in a litter on a poor farm, an "odd" pup might well have been culled. If it could be sold, as a pet or to someone who was less worried about the difference between it and its littermates, then it was. Then because the breeder kept going with the dominent color, the "odd" color slipped further into the background.

 

Since we are talking about people, naturally some of them didn't agree with the others, and some kept on an unusual color or type of marking. If it was successful for them, then they might select for that in the next time it appeared. But since the red is recessive, it still didn't pop up much - since those breeders naturally still favored work first, and dominent color of the genepool was black.

 

While red is not assocaited currently with any health defect, it is associated with faults of temperament and working skill in *some* lines. This has been exacerbated in lines (Border Collie or other breeds) that breed *only* red because of poorly thought human whim and $$ interest

[Ooky]

There was an article in Working Sheepdog News quite a few years ago, where a researcher noted that anywhere in the world that dogs were selected for the controlling/herding of livestock the Irish Spotting Pattern (blaze, collar, feet - white) was prevalent. From the flock dogs of Saudi Arabia, to the British Isles, and the ranches of Brazil...the same markings on the herding dogs regardless of their "breed". Apparently this color pattern comes along with the genes appropriate for domestication and breeding for herding work

 

Now that *is* interesting. From what I understand of the fox domestication study, the development of the irish spotting/piebald condition should apply to all domesticated dogs (as Melanie pointed out). But in some breeds, this coloration was later selected against by breeders. Think of a german shepherd - they were selected to look as wolf-like as possible, with no white and prick ears (both of which early BC breeders or even early herding/farm dog breeders could have selected for, but did not).

 

I could see the gene for irish spotting (from what I understand this is a single locus, incomplete dominance, multiple allele gene) being linked with a complex of genes for docility. But genetic linkage occurs because the linked genes are located on the same chromosome as one another.

 

This means for irish spotting to be so reliably genetically linked with the genes for "herding" behavior, all or most of the genes for herding behavior have to be located on the same chromosome as the irish spotting gene. That seems incredibly unlikely to me, knowing how many different behavioral and physical traits are required. In my mind, it is more likely that a set of genes increasing docility would be linked to the gene for irish spotting, because in comparison to herding ability, docility is a relatively simple trait. I'd be interested to know what your geneticist friend thinks of that idea.

 

Again, that evidence makes me wonder if there isn't some small advantage, especially when you are first developing a herding breed (like 800 years ago, trying to figure out which dogs had any talent at all) to the bold, contrasting coloration. Enough so that all these different cultures seized on it and bred animals not to exclude that, as they did for so many other breeds that don't tend to have a lot of white.

[ejano]

ejano - littermates can be as little as 18% similar in genetic make up according to my genetics expert friend. It's not uncommon for them to be very different, espeically in low COI (inbreeding) level litters as most Border Collies are. Also, as I've mentioned before, littermates raised together often have these issues - the dominent pushy one just gets more so, and the shy quiet one gets worse. They have to be seperated and helped individually to both move towards as balanced in temperament as they can be. It has nothing to do with what color they are.

 

The genetic differences among littermates is very interesting to know. The reds in Robin's letter certainly showed a marked difference in personality

 

The initial reaction of anyone looking at our two pups since they were old enough to toddle has been, "Brodie (the black and white with soulful seal eyes) is a really sweet dog, but THAT ROBIN...." He's like the little red headed boy in school with the gamey grin and freckles that just can't seem to stay out of trouble because everyone thinks he IS trouble.

 

What I was referring in terms of temperament is how the pups react to new situations. Whether they are separate or together, Robin is more likely to push forward to investigate and Brodie hangs back a bit (is that shyness? I would call it caution?) ....we could start a whole different discussion on which dog has the preferred reaction...some would say that Robin is a steadier dog because he's less rattled in new situations and is willing to explore, but others might say that Brodie is the smarter dog because his innate caution will keep him out of trouble and he's more willing to listen to his handler in a new situation because he's looking for guidance on how to react while Robin is difficult to handle in new situations because his initial excitement makes him deaf and dumb to any commands (We're working on this - see my question regarding what to expect from a five month old pup). If reds are thought to have this "Damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead!" approach to life, then it is possible to see why a stockman would not want a dog whose drive outweighs his ability to listen. Though Robin does have a genuine desire to please (once he calms down) that Brodie so far hasn't exhibited to such a great degree.

 

I've been watching for dominance to become a problem with our two pups and so far they seem pretty comfortable with each other. They know to whom they belong (Brodie is Ken's pup) and hang with that person when we are in separate areas of the house. We take them out separately to play and when we go "walkabout" at the same time, we go in separate directions. Trips to town are rotated among the three dogs....I'm getting quite a reputation as "That lady with the Border Collies".

 

 

When they play what I refer to as sheep and wolf, one can't predict who will be the "sheep" and the other the "wolf" as it flips at any given moment....in our household our adult female, Ladybug, is clearly the one in charge and they are happy to show her all due respect (and they know she defers to me). She had pups before she came to us as a rescue and she's been very good with them from the beginning. She's even faster than me at stepping in when they start getting rough so they've learned not to bicker too seriously. Brodie however has become an accomplished thief and is most likely to end up with all of the bones and toys. He has established a cache under the pine trees for all of his treasures. Robin will give over to him and even Ladybug will turn a blind eye toward him sneaking up on her and acquiring whatever she happens to have that is not a tennis ball. Those she won't part with. I'm really having a good time both watching them and interacting with each of them because they all do have such different personalities.

 

 

 

Liz

[ejano]

While red is not assocaited currently with any health defect, it is associated with faults of temperament and working skill in *some* lines. This has been exacerbated in lines (Border Collie or other breeds) that breed *only* red because of poorly thought human whim and $$ interest

 

 

Interesting...what kinds of temperament faults?

 

Robin comes from working lines and has a sweet disposition. He is calm and very responsive situations that are familiar to him but difficult to handle in new situations because his initial excitement makes him deaf and dumb to any commands (We're working on this - see my question regarding what to expect from a five month old pup). I thought he was just being a puppy but if reds are thought to have this "Damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead!" approach to life, then it is possible to see why a stockman would not want a dog whose drive outweighs his ability to listen. Though Robin does have a genuine desire to please (once he calms down) that Brodie (the black and white littermate) so far hasn't exhibited to such a great degree.

 

As for human whim and $$, I can definately see that reds could be bred as designer dogs to their detriment as Robin does attract a great deal of attention....most people don't know what breed he is at first but they think he's very attractive. His half sister who was on the breeder's premises is absolutely stunning in addition to possessing great herding ability. Again, she wasn't picked out of the litter for herding because she was red....

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

but if reds are thought to have this "Damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead!" approach to life, <snip>

 

As for human whim and $$, I can definately see that reds could be bred as designer dogs to their detriment as Robin does attract a great deal of attention....most people don't know what breed he is at first but they think he's very attractive. His half sister who was on the breeder's premises is absolutely stunning in addition to possessing great herding ability. Again, she wasn't picked out of the litter for herding because she was red....

I have three red dogs and I wouldn't say that any of them fit the "damn the torpedoes" analogy. One is fear aggressive, but I think that's in a large part the result of his (in)breeding and upbringing.

 

And I'm not to be ugly or anything, but you seem to be looking for all sorts of reasons why your red dog might be different from dogs of another color. He's a dog. He has his own personality and intellect and skills that are completely unrelated to his color. For the most part, his color is simply incidental to everything else, not the other way around (i.e., that his color somehow imparts certain other characteristics). Some people find red attractive and some do not. I know several big hats who won't touch a red dog. I happen to like red dogs, but don't always pick the red dog when the opportunity arises.

 

I don't know what lines Wendy is talking about, but in one line I know of, there are red dogs who tend toward aggressiveness (toward other dogs mainly, but sometimes fear aggression toward humans) while the B&W and tri dogs from the same litter don't show those aggressive tendencies. I would be hard pressed to say for sure that it's a genetic tendency in those lines, although there may be some correlation, because the red dogs I know are also all with softer female owners who may just not have put their collective foot down on the dog when it started exhibiting such behavior, whereas the other dogs from those lines who aren't aggressive are also with tougher handlers. It's possible that the red dogs in that line have a genetic propensity for aggressiveness and that nurture determines which of them actually become so.

 

Why not just enjoy Robin for who he is as an individual and not try to find labels for him because he's red? Red used to be fairly rare, but it's really not so anymore. And it's just a color.

 

J.

[ejano]

I have three red dogs and I wouldn't say that any of them fit the "damn the torpedoes" analogy. One is fear aggressive, but I think that's in a large part the result of his (in)breeding and upbringing.

 

And I'm not to be ugly or anything, but you seem to be looking for all sorts of reasons why your red dog might be different from dogs of another color.

 

Why not just enjoy Robin for who he is as an individual and not try to find labels for him because he's red? Red used to be fairly rare, but it's really not so anymore. And it's just a color.

 

J.

 

Hi Julie,

I'm not looking for all sorts of reasons to label Robin, just curious about the links between color and temperament and explanations for old time prejudices. I'm a writer as well as an educator and as such a collector of seemingly useless trivia.

 

I had a paint horse (red and white, actually ) as a teen-ager and the blacksmith criticized him every time he came to care for his feet, swearing that all paint/piebald horses were obnoxious and stupid. Actually, Amigo was pretty smart. He was well mannered, gave no problems in trimming and shoeing and he learned all kinds of tricks, including a few self-taught escape tricks that were particularly clever. So why did the blacksmith not like him? For all I know somewhere along the line a paint horse kicked him in the head and knocked a few marbles loose .

 

And I did say in another post that I was enjoying watching both of the pups grow and develop different personalities. I love my little Robin - he's a very special dog having come to me at a particularly challenging time in my life after losing Scotty and receiving a diagnosis of cancer in one horrible week. Robin was born the day the robins flocked back to our area and brought me new hope, distracting me from "the Big C" and with the chemotherapy done and a clean bill of health, he continues to help me heal and get back in condition with our lessons and just generally chasing him and Brodie around. Personally, I think Robin is the greatest thing to walk the earth since my son was born and he would be whatever his color and I know my husband feels the same about Brodie as all of you on these boards feel about your dogs. .

 

Liz

[sea4th]

When working sheep, dogs are more likely to stop or lie down on balance (in a position to hold the sheep to the handler). When starting young dogs, it is usually the only place they will stop. So when I was even more of a novice handler than I am now, and starting my first dogs, my instructor used to tease me that the blaze on their faces was for me: when I needed to take the dog off the stock, I was to walk straight in at the blaze (to avoid inadvertently being off to the side and off balance ever so slightly, which was likely to cause the dog to get up and flank around again). Seems to work.

 

 

 

here, but might be taken very seriously in conformation circles.

 

OT, a little here -- there's a need for explanation in a breed standard and that one just might be worked in to justify the reason for a white blaze. I remember back in the 1990's watching breed judging as exhibitors trotted their border collies around the ring. I was really pi$$ed watching the dogs, whose natural movement should have had the head extended forward at a full trot, having their heads jerked up, which is unnatural, but for some reason attractive to confo-ites. I made a joke of it saying to a couple of people that the reason for the head being jerked up while trotting in the breed ring was to recreate what a border collie in it's work as a sheepdog does, because if the grass is high, how are else are they supposed to see the sheep? I'd forgotten about that until a year or so later when I read the same being rationalized on another e-mail group. I hope that theory died a quick death, but even if it did, yours might launch a whole new paragraph to be written into the breed standard.

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

Liz wrote: "I'm not looking for all sorts of reasons to label Robin, just curious about the links between color and temperament and explanations for old time prejudices."

 

As Julie has thoughtfully explained, I, too, believe that there aren't any definite links between color and temperament. There are probably a few very general commonalities, but to say that all red Border Collies are _____, or all black and white Border Collies are ______ would be unrealistic.

 

To further explain the old time prejudices regarding color, please keep in mind that the shepherds who created the modern Border Collie led a rather simple life, and tradition was a big part of their culture. Tradition dictated many of their choices, therefore the working sheepdogs that had a traditional appearance (black and white) would be the ones they would mostly likely choose. Also, as Lejano wrote, oddly marked or colored animals were considered oddities, and possibly ones with genetic defects, and usually culled.

 

There has been a tremendous increase in the numbers of non-traditional colored Border Collies in the past quarter century or so, and I think that this is primarily because the majority of Border Collie owners now are not shepherds. Most of the non-traditionally colored pups being produced now would have been culled (not allowed to live) had they been born a few decades ago. However, there is now a big market for these non-traditional colored pups, but generally not among the Border Collie purists.

 

Regards to all,

nancy