dogs that like to drive vs dogs that like to gather

[RoseAmy]

Was talking this weekend with some friends and in discussing the fun of starting a young dog, someone said that they thought that a dog with a bit of eye and that perfered to drive was much easier to train then a loose eyed dog that like to gather.

 

Of course everyone jumped in with their thoughts-some agreed some didn't.

 

Got me thinking. Now my last dog that I started loved to gather and was loose eyed, my current young one likes to drive and has alot of eye. Gathered seemed so much easier..of course she was very bidable and this one isn't so that makes a big difference.

 

What's everyone choice and why?

[Ooky]

RoseAmy, I'm so sorry if I instantly bring down the discussion quality of this thread, because I have no business having an opinion on this, period. I'm a novice just starting to train my first dog. Like, you know the old myth Eskimo (the language) has something like 30 words for "snow"? If we had 30 words for "starting," what I am would be beginning-to-start-to-commencing-starting, soon.

 

But so far things have been pretty ok for us (I clearly have low expectations! ). My dog is loose-eyed and likes to gather, and so far I've found him to be only a help to me. He brings me those sheep. He brings them where I want to go. I tell him and go there, and here come sheep! He is plenty keen but I have a reliable down and controlled walk up, so even brakes if I need (though I try my best to not need them). In that sense, I think right now I am very glad I have this and not the strong-eyed loves-to-drive type - I have seen those at a clinic and lessons. They look opinionated!

 

But then I notice that the resident expert RMS and others have mentioned this concept that a dog who starts opinionated (for lack of a better word) can end up as a dog with a lot more bottom in the end.

 

Has that been your experience with your 2 dogs? Or do you expect it to be, if the young one isn't far enough along to tell conclusively?

 

I also don't know yet how to think about style as being separate from talent, either. While I love my dog to pieces and feel he's a real gift to me, the really stylish ones sure are a treat to watch!

 

ETA take this with a further grain of salt because we haven't even started driving and I won't be starting drives until this weekend or later, likely.

[juliepoudrier]

1. I personally think it's a mistake to equate loose-eyed = good gather and dogs with eye = good driver (and therefore not a good gather). I prefer a dog with a bit of eye (I might agree that dogs with *too much eye* might not be as natural at gathering, although I have one here that has more than enough eye, but still has a natural gather), but all of my dogs with eye have also been quite natural gathering dogs (that is, they are good at silent gathers, to which people who know me and have seen me trial can attest). Of course, most of my dogs are similarly bred and come from lines that are natural gathering, so it's no surprise that's where their early strength is. It's probably more fair to leave eye out of the discussion and simply note that some dogs are more natural at gathering and some are more natural at driving, regardless of how much or how little eye.

 

2. Setting eye aside, I would prefer to have to teach a dog to drive than to teach one to gather. In other words, I'd like the dog to have a natural or near-natural gather from the start. Intellectually I just prefer not having to teach a dog to gather....

 

3. Ooky, I think you can find just as many "opinionated" dogs who are better gatherers to start as you can find "opinionated" dogs who prefer to drive. That is, whether a dog is "opinionated" or not IME has nothing to do with whether the dog is a natural gathering dog or a natural driving dog.

 

JMO based on my own experience of course.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Boy, tough question, I have found that I like dogs that have some stick to them and that really want to control their sheep (the stick locks the sheep up a bit), so basically I guess they are opinionated but to the hold not the gather and fetch. I have a female that is opinionated about gathering, she drives me nuts, gather and fetch, gather and fetch, don't want to drive, they need to be fetched, she is a bugger to get stopped, it's a constent on going work in progress trying to stop her perpetual motion. Then I have a female that is ok with driving but does not seem to have enough get around to get them stopped to really be able to take control of the stock, with her it's about begging her to get going to find the right place to stop

 

Jake is a get to the draw, kick around to the head and stop them hound as he slides in on his belly, and driven hard about it (opinionated), he don't care about bringing them, just getting them stopped. Since I got a stop on him, was able to freely flank him in and back out of the draws and balance he's been a blast! Would love to start over with him 10 times over, I keep hoping that I will get a repeat with one of his pups. I've worked with a few others that were simular but older, only took a few weeks to have a really good start on them, once I showed them that they could control the stock from any place that I asked them to go it was just a matter of building distance on my commands and holding them to it. I don't know that he is really a natural gatherer and he's not a natural driver, I have to hold him to both requirements, he's a natural at finding the right distance to flank around and get stock controlled and stopped, I guess rudimentary balance. I hope I explained it in a way that makes sense, it's kinda hard to explain.

 

More then one person told me that I didn't want what he offers, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else that I've expirenced so far.

 

Deb

[Smokjbc]

Hello,

 

Most of the looser eyed dogs I've had or known seem to like driving better and the stronger eyed more natural gatherers- maybe it's just my sampling of "dogs I know". My very strong eyed (to the point of sticky) Rhett was a natural gatherer, on sheep and cattle. It might be slow and deliberate, but it was right. She hated driving- she'd do it to a point but was really disgusted with the idea (which I realize now has as much with me not starting her driving soon enough, than her eye).

 

I personally have had dogs of medium to loose eye that I like alot and were good at both driving and gather. What I prefer in a dog is guts and a task oriented attitude. I like dogs that are intuitive about what you are trying to do or will try really hard to figure it out. I want a dog that wants to control sheep but that understands that sheep need to move and is not afraid to push into them.

 

edited to add:

 

I think dogs with eye are generally easier to train because they make more deliberate movements and are not usually as fast moving. They don't require as much in the timing department on the part of the handler. I know my dogs with the most eye are also the ones I felt "safest" handling- I knew they would not make trouble on their own accord.

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

Hello,

 

Most of the looser eyed dogs I've had or known seem to like driving better and the stronger eyed more natural gatherers- maybe it's just my sampling of "dogs I know". My very strong eyed (to the point of sticky) Rhett was a natural gatherer, on sheep and cattle. It might be slow and deliberate, but it was right. She hated driving- she'd do it to a point but was really disgusted with the idea (which I realize now has as much with me not starting her driving soon enough, than her eye).

 

I personally have had dogs of medium to loose eye that I like alot and were good at both driving and gather. What I prefer in a dog is guts and a task oriented attitude. I like dogs that are intuitive about what you are trying to do or will try really hard to figure it out. I want a dog that wants to control sheep but that understands that sheep need to move and is not afraid to push into them.

 

edited to add:

 

I think dogs with eye are generally easier to train because they make more deliberate movements and are not usually as fast moving. They don't require as much in the timing department on the part of the handler. I know my dogs with the most eye are also the ones I felt "safest" handling- I knew they would not make trouble on their own accord.

 

 

Yes, I think you are right about loose eyed dogs liking to drive and strong eyed dogs liking to gather. I train quite a few dogs each winter for ranchers in the area and I have found that the loose eyed ones generally love to push into their stock and the strong eyed ones love to gather them. This is a general statement as there are always those that don't fit the mold. Usually you are either teaching the drive with the strong eyed ones or teaching the outrun and fetch with the loose eyed ones. Mind you, I would love to train a loose to medium eyed dog with a lot of brains and willingness who had good balance and a good mind for pressure with enough presence to get the job done. I got one in like that last year and I sure wish he was mine. He had a 400 yard outrun on him, was doing inside flanks, and had a great stop with hardly any corrections on his flanks in just 12 days and I sent him back to my neighbour to go to work. And I don't deserve a drop of credit for the job. He just learned as he was shown and I only had to show him once for each discipline. Lord, get me another one of those. Should we be so lucky and the dog doesn't even trial. He's a work dog on a sheep ranch and his owner is in his glory. By the way, loose eyed dogs are quite nice with their stock usually and tend to not upset them when working. I have found that, generally speaking, most loose eyed dogs are usually quite strong on stock but not overly aggressive with them. Bob

[Debbie Meier]

I got one in like that last year and I sure wish he was mine. He had a 400 yard outrun on him, was doing inside flanks, and had a great stop with hardly any corrections on his flanks in just 12 days and I sent him back to my neighbour to go to work

 

Bob, out of curiosity, how old was he when you got him in?

 

 

Mind you, I would love to train a loose to medium eyed dog with a lot of brains and willingness who had good balance and a good mind for pressure with enough presence to get the job done.

 

Is that a standard to train to or a standard to breed to? Ohh, if a person could get one of those in each litter and was able to recognize early on what they had.

 

Deb

[Pam Wolf]

I have a loose eyed gathering dog here I'll give to somebody who wants one!

 

I'll stick with strong eyed headers.

[Debbie Meier]

I have a loose eyed gathering dog here I'll give to somebody who wants one!

 

I'll stick with strong eyed headers.

 

 

Hey Pam, can you stop her and get her to drive??

 

Deb

[Pam Wolf]

Hey Pam, can you stop her and get her to drive??

 

Deb

 

 

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Debbie Meier]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Heeehee....I just thought...

 

Sorry to go off topic, if you run across a female that can handle close in work, takes no crap from ewes, has some scope but does not need a bunch with a pretty good handle let me know. I have a guy that raises sheep and dairy cattle than needs a easy to live with little working dog. Most of his work will be in small places with a 4-5 acre pasture with single strand barb wire here and there. Oh yeah, they have to have a thick skin too, he talks real quiet but makes up for it when he yells.

 

I have a dog that might work if I could ever give her to quite trying to prove what she wants is more important then what I want. I'm not putting alot of faith in him and her getting along, but...maybe she will surprise me, she is correct when it comes to her stock, not always correct when it comes to what I am asking her to do with it. But I suppose if he is not certain as to how she should proceed she will show him...

 

 

 

Deb

[Caroline Reichard]

I'm truly confused. I thought that the instinct to gather stock to the handler just was a defining, basic characteristic of border collies? People may talk about the relative merits of strong and loose eyed dogs, but if folks want a Border collie that doesn't have a natural gather isn't that like wanting non alchoholic beer?

[RoseAmy]

Must say that I agree that bidable or opinionated comes in either gathers or drivers and in loose eyed or strong eyed dogs.

 

Which may be why some THINK they prefer one over the other. Depending on what their experience with their dogs have been.

 

In my case my loose eye dog is the natural gather however she wasn't hard to teach to drive.

 

Now the young pup has a good bit of eye and much prefers to drive. BUT I'm now begining to rethink that. For those of you that have followed the story of the little firecracker we have reached a point where she is starting to accept the fact that I'm the one she's working for not herself. Funny thing the driving off of the sheep has stop. Yesterday was very hot and I pushed her a bit much and her brain was leaving and lo and behold instead of gathering like I asked she starts driving the sheep away..a big problem that we have had..being hot and abit crabby at that point I guess there was a wee bit of anger in my hey what are you doing--guess what she flanked around and bought them back.

 

So now I rethink things..natural driver or using driving as a means to work for herself.

 

I think there are so many layers to all of this that it is hard to make a cut and dried statement.

[Debbie Meier]

I'm truly confused. I thought that the instinct to gather stock to the handler just was a defining, basic characteristic of border collies? People may talk about the relative merits of strong and loose eyed dogs, but if folks want a Border collie that doesn't have a natural gather isn't that like wanting non alchoholic beer?

 

 

It depends on who's train of thought you are following. I have heard more then one good breeder/trainer express the opinion that the Border Collies defining charecteristic is the desire and ability to make livestock stop. Which could be considered to some as the first step to controlling it.

 

I tend to lean that way having way more success with a dog that naturally knows how to spacially stop stock then one that does not have that trait but can run out and create a gather. I have ACD's that love to gather and are quite good at it, but not many that can stop stock in their tracks at a distance, or that can cast out their presence in a specific place to create a stop. They also have problems rating and pacing, all seem to be related to the dog understanding how to use his presence to control stock or stop parts of the motion not just apply pressure so that it just moves. To me, that is what makes Border Collies different and defines them from the other breeds, having worked with and watched many other herding breeds.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

I think there are so many layers to all of this that it is hard to make a cut and dried statement.

 

Amen to that. FWIW, I've always defined a border collie as a gathering breed. I think it's fair to say that some dogs are natural gathering dogs and some are more natural drivers, but I don't think those characteristics are related to eye at all. It's funny on one list I'm on where people with loose-eyed upright breeds will routinely refer to border collies as "eye dogs" when in fact the breed as a whole encompasses the entire spectrum from completely loose eyed to having too much eye. I personally think the gather is important--frankly, if my dog can't go gather the sheep out of the pasture, everything else is immaterial--you can't handle stock in any way, shape, or form if it can't be brought to you. To me, the stop is important to control only if the stock are attempting to escape, and even then, the dog has to understand that the goal isn't simply to stop the livestock, but to *move* it in a desired direction. I wouldn't be very happy with a dog whose overriding desire was to stop livestock. My ideal dog is one that will read stock and then react appropriately to control the movement of that stock. I read Debbie's comment about "spatially controlling" to mean that the dog uses its eye to control and so doesn't have to be up close and personal and always pushing.

 

Debbie,

I think the ACD analogy is comparing apples and oranges. A good border collie, IMO, isn't all about stopping stock, it's about the finesse of pressure and release, and stopping motion in the direction that's not intended while allowing it in the direction that is intended, not simply just being able to stop stock. If I have a dog gathering or driving sheep who want to run, I don't want the dog to stop those sheep, but I would want the dog to be working from a position that allows it to control the pace and forward motion of the lead animal *without* actually stopping them. It's perhaps a subtle difference, but IME is an important one.

 

Although maybe we're talking about two different things....

 

J.

[Lenajo]

There were always Border Collies that started out driving,or prefered it, in the genepool. John Templeton comments specifically on them in his book. If they have the other genetics required (and a decent trainer) they turn out just fine.

 

A very old timer in stockdogs with lots of trials and real work behind him commented to me once that to a dog, there is no difference between driving and fetching because to a dog the view is the same.

 

To add to that Bobby Daziel made a big point at a recent clinic that he is completely unconcerned with a dog going around - he does weeks to months of driving on the long line the way he wants first, because in his words "any dog can be taught to go around, the work is in getting them pacing behind <sheep> like you want".

 

What makes good working Border Collies different from most other breeds is stock sense/stock feel. (and that is the first step to stock control, stopping the stock is secondary). If they have that inate understanding of livestock, and then the rest of the package is at least average (the desire to work with you, the desire to control the stock) then drive or fetch to start you will end up in a useful place.

 

Most non-Border Collies workers (with the exception of the Kelpie) don't have that stock sense/feel and spend the majority of their careers bumping in and out of the flight zone, and dealing (or encouraging ) the chaos that creates.

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

Bob, out of curiosity, how old was he when you got him in?

 

He was about 17 months and came from my neighbour, Dave Ellison who used to trial but is now busy with raising registered Dorper sheep and no time to trial. He didn't even have a good stop on him yet as Dave had an older very good bitch that he used to trial and used her on the farm all the time. But he was at just the right age for him to start learning and he learned faster than any dog I have ever trained and he didn't have a weak bone in his body.

 

 

Is that a standard to train to or a standard to breed to? Ohh, if a person could get one of those in each litter and was able to recognize early on what they had.

 

 

Deb

 

In my opinion the answer would be yes to both questions. Unfortunately the bitch who was a full litter sister to Michelle Howard's Spot is now passed on. He is by my RMS Pat and there was only one pup in the litter. She was almost 10 when she whelped. Bob

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

I'm truly confused. I thought that the instinct to gather stock to the handler just was a defining, basic characteristic of border collies? People may talk about the relative merits of strong and loose eyed dogs, but if folks want a Border collie that doesn't have a natural gather isn't that like wanting non alchoholic beer?

 

Hi Caroline. I don't think anyone is saying that they want a dog with no gather but there are lots of them out there that would prefer to drive rather than gather. Not as many as those that want to gather but they are there. The gather is usually in there but the type of dog I refer to is usually too impetuous to get to stock and would rather go right up the middle and smack them as quick as possible. There's nothing wrong with this type of dog to the right trainer who can bring out that outrun and fetch but if you aren't willing to put in the time, frustration and hard work to bring it out then stick with the natural gatherers. To each his own and you have to fit the dog to the handler if success is to take place. Bob

[Sue R]

Celt is a natural gatherer, and I have found it much easier to understand and work with him, although it's been an awfully slow learning curve on my part in many, many ways. Bute was (as Bob put it) so eager to get to the cattle that he ran up the middle and was comfortable driving, not gathering. While my trainer and I could get him to gather sheep (not consistently but making progress, considering how little training time he got), he was always happy at the rear and pushing - which is precisely where Celt was not comfortable.

 

Once I began to understand Celt better, I found that I could work better with him and get him to do some driving, with both of us being less anxious and more productive. I didn't have the chance to make that progress with Bute.

 

I certainly find a need a dog that knows what he's doing because I am a sorry excuse for a handler...

 

Back to the topic at hand - for us, gathering takes precedence over driving because my DH can lead the cattle pretty well. A driving dog mainly keeps the stragglers with the group and helps at the pens to push the cattle in. With Ed leading and me behind, I can usually do that job but it sure is more effort than I'd like to expend at my age. But there is no way at all that I can do the work of a gathering dog. I just can't cover the stock. I do help Celt a lot because, with about 70 animals now, he needs some backup now that Bute is gone.

 

I guess that I am, for now, the "second dog" of the brace. Don't anybody say what that makes me...

[Caroline Reichard]

...the type of dog I refer to is usually too impetuous to get to stock and would rather go right up the middle and smack them as quick as possible. There's nothing wrong with this type of dog to the right trainer...

 

 

Hi Bob,

 

I owned that dog, and I remember all the good advice that you gave me about me about handling him. But the natural cast was in there, too. I'd always assumed that the type of dog to which you are referring above has all the natural cast you could want, but it's so keen that it doesn't feel that at the beginning, when the sheep are so close. If I am understanding this thread correctly, the the debate is about dogs that have no gathering instinct at all (or maybe I am just being dense).

 

(FWIW, I still love that dog to death, although he is too much for me and bullied his sheep until the day he retired.)

[Smokjbc]

If I am understanding this thread correctly, the the debate is about dogs that have no gathering instinct at all (or maybe I am just being dense).

 

I think the assumption in the OP was that dogs leaned strongly one way or the other, but I think most of us agree that it's not true at all. So many variables go into whether a dog is keen to gather vs. drive (not a small part of it is the training it gets- see my post with the dog that was a natural gather that I neglected her driving until she was too old to accept it) that you really can't predict based on style what the dog will have talent to do.

[juliepoudrier]

If I am understanding this thread correctly, the the debate is about dogs that have no gathering instinct at all (or maybe I am just being dense).

That's how I understood this discussion too; okay well, really that it was about the assumption that dogs with a lot of eye are natural driving dogs while dogs that are loose eyed like to gather. The two pups I have out of my natural gathering dog were straight up the middle types (complete with gnashing teeth) when I started them, but I never had to *put* an outrun on them--I just had to wait till they matured a bit and that natural cast came out. I had a dog here this spring who was tight on her outruns but would drive from here to he!! and back. I didn't mind working on her outrun and it was fun being able to put her on a line and watch her hold it. The difficult part of training was getting her to take a flank on the drive because once she was on a line, by golly that was the line she was staying on! Each individual dog presents unique challenges, and for me that's what makes training the young one enjoyable.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think I owned the king of all loose eyed Border Collies. Oddly, though he truly stank at gathering (ie, naturally casting), he was most at home in big fields and was most comfortable on balance, wherever that might be. He had an extreme sense of pressure that I never understood until he was bordering on elderly - and it was at that time that I discovered that my dog I thought hated driving, actually loved it!

 

He was one of those bowling ball dogs and being "pushed out" made him really nervous, though he had way too much heart to quit. He'd just work so badly you said, "Um, never mind Ben!"

 

But when we moved to a really large place (by east coast standards) where we traveled half a mile to grazes and back again - Ben was in his element. I didn't even know Ben HAD an element!

 

His sense of pressure and balance were invaluable and a real education those days of traveling and grazing. I learned SO much and one thing I learned was how much I like a dog with really good balance. Usually this comes with eye, but not always! These dogs really catch my eye now at trials (so to speak).

 

And I've found it's harder to develop balance than it is a good cast. Driving dogs tend do well through confident balance, I feel, so my vote would be towards the driving dog.

 

Interestingly, the old lines I like best tend to come from driving champions. So I could have said that without all the blah-blah. But it's nice for me to know the why after all these years.

[Sue R]

One thing I did not mention about Bute was, while he lacked a natural outrun (cast) when the sheep were stationary, if they were running (heading to the exhaust, for instance) or if the cattle were heading up the road instead of across, his instinct would kick in and he would do a nice outrun and get to the head. But he just hadn't developed it to the point where it would kick in on animals that were not moving or not moving enough.

[RoseAmy]

If I am understanding this thread correctly, the the debate is about dogs that have no gathering instinct at all (or maybe I am just being dense).

 

 

Not about dogs with no gathering instinct but dogs that show a preference for driving. In the discussion I had this person thought that dogs with alot of eye and prefered to drive were easier to train.

 

In thinking about my dogs and experiences I wasn't really sure that I agreed. Like I said early there are so many layers to all of this I think it's hard to make a blanket statement like that. they are just too many factors to figure into the mix.