Dixie_Girl Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Some of y'all may remember my dilema with my daughters dog, a rott/pitt cross. Otis is a great dog, he has always been good with the grandbabies. No matter what they did, he never so much as growled. I had kept him locked in the spare BR except for going outside. Slowly I got to the point where now the door is open all the time except when I leave and at night. He and Jackson has learned to co-exist. I feed all three dogs, and sometimes even the cat, treats or scraps of meat together. All three lined up and close together. NEVER a prob. Otis is a vocal dog. IE when he plays with you with a toy, there is a lot of growling going on. It is NOT a mean growl, it is just what he does when he plays. But he has always been an only dog. No other dogs to play with. Jackson never got a chance to play with other dogs either until I had Buddy, the rescue BC. Buddy had to basicaly teach Jackson to play, but their play was identical, and Jackson took to it real quick. But, Buddy like Jackson is NOT vocal. Now it is getting to the point where Otis is trying I think to play with Jackson, but he will growl, and Jackson takes it as aggression and will immediately back away and do something else. So now Otis has, you guessed it, found that growling will make Jackson leave. I play with Jackson in the house, just throwing his toy to different places. Sometimes Otis will be laying in the way and usually after Jackson has had to jump over him or whiz by him, he gets up and goes back to his room. Last night Otis was laying in the hall in front of the other spare room where I throw the toy and Jackson was standing by him when I hear this growl. I immediately, in a very stern voice, said, what are you doing! and Jackson immediately went under the bench,(his hidey hole) and Otis went to his room. I have no proof, but think it was Otis as Jackson is not vocal. And I have never heard him growl. Bark at grizzly bears at night in the backyard, but not growl. But it still could have been him. Now I am fixing to get a new pup. I don't have a prob with the pup being corrected by an older dog to teach it manners, but there is a big diff between correction and a snack. My daughter in no way can take him back, even if I got the money to send him. My SIL suggested a no kill shelter. I am not comfortable with that because I know he can NOT be trusted with someone he doesn't know. I thought of having him PTS. How do I look in those eyes I have known since he was a pup and say, well your family abandoned you and I got this thing going on with BCs and you might hurt them so, too bad fella, you gotta go? He can not be re-homed. He is going on 9, he is a huge dog, and I wouldn't trust him with strangers enough to do that. I think right now he is fighting for pecking order with Jackson. Then there will be the new pup. I just think it is lousy that I got stuck with this situation. It is a good thing my daughter is so far away! So, I guess the only thing to do is keep him locked in the room, take him out to play with without the pup around and keep an eye on things. As the pup gets older, and bigger, try slowly integrating them. What else is there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Well. I don't envy your situation, that's for sure. It's a tough one. But I don't think I could put him to sleep. He sounds like he's doing pretty well... figuring out how to manipulate Jackson, but other than that it sounds okay. My Oreo will still growl at Tessa all the time to get her to move or whatever.... it's just how they are. If Jackson is obeying the growl, it's possible Otis is taking over top spot. And Jackson doesn't seem too perturbed about it? I'd watch them very very closely... but it's possible they'll figure it all out and coexist very nicely together. Our two are always growling and snapping at each other (in play and in play-gone-wrong, as well as Zoe gets a little peeved over bones), and we just let them.... we don't step in unless a fight is going to break out (unlikely and rare). I do understand your concern, though, with Otis being part pit. But you might be worried for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katydid & Furry Friends Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Okay for what my take is worth Jackson can give a great Broder Collie smile I'm sure. If one growls in my house for territory I give them a mom growl that says enough. I have 9 dogs this week I expect them to get along Sheryls puppy runs with all of them in the yard and plays. If you isolate a dog they never get to be part of the pack even new rescues like Buddy AKA McDreamy is expected to find his place and at three in the morning when he arrived they sniffed him all over and took him around the house to show him the lake and were all swimming. I beleive all puppies get slack with older dogs, and would hope where the puppy comes from he's allowed to meet and greet and play with all the dogs. Katie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katydid & Furry Friends Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Ps forgot my thoughts a Border Collie can stir things with very little effort with the smile..all teeth and lip curl and never make a sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Well, Buddy didn't ask for this either. Don't think that you're "stuck". Integrate the pup right away with Buddy! I couldn't isolate, alienate or PTS a dog for what sounds like pack order, leadership and relationship issues. If Buddy's never given you cause to panic then don't start now. A new pup will upset the order initially but they will work it out rather quick. Have you consider not getting the new pup right away? Waiting till Buddy & Jackson are comfortable together? BTW, I have one that you will "never" hear growl, however, he thinks he can stop a train with his silent growl and stare when others walk in the room. Fortunately he's a nerd and no one pays attention to him. That and one look from me sends him wagging all over the room He doesn't like to be a "leader" and is more than willing to fall in line. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted July 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Katie, so glad to see you on the boards!! And yes, the point you raise is valid. I have no idea how much is actually Jackson starting it and Otis trying to finish it! But Jackson is in no way a dominate dog. So, Karen, your "nerd" dog sounds alot like Jackson. I cannot wait on pup. He is actually ready now. And you are right, Otis didn't ask for this. And it is the thing that keeps me trying to make this work. As I said, I have been "grandma" to him since he was a pup. Oh, and yes Katie, the pup has been taken around the other BCs where he is. Natalie, Otis being part pit doesn't worry me. It's that HUGE rott mouth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 TBH if I were throwing toys in the house (which I don't do usually because its liable to cause a doggie train wreck) and was throwing them over my arthritic dog's head, and the other dogs were jumping over her, around her, and possibly on her, I'd expect her to growl or raise a lip. Matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see her put on a "stop jumping over me" show - to which they normally would signal back that they are VERY sorry. I don't remember how old Otis is, but for some reason I'm thinking he's older. He may just not appreciate the rowdiness. He may also think its his job to be the fun police. Couple of possibilities: is it possible he has some arthritis or some other pain causing him to be a grump? Could he benefit from some NILIF? Another thing, my grumpiest female can be grumpy to other similar aged females, but LOVES LOVES LOVES puppies. It is entirely possible at this point that Otis may be fine with a puppy. If all he's done at this point is growl a little at Jackson (which likely meant knock off the silliness) it *may* not be time to stress yet. You could always try the management thing, but I think *my* first move would be a tighter NILIF program, and respect for Otis' space. But that's just me - you have to do what your comfort level demands. I can certainly sympathize with the situation you're in. Its awfully kind of you to take care of Otis. Another thing I might would consider would be a female pup - kinda balance out the males a tad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Anne Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Hey Linda, sounds like you already have gotten some real good advice/opinions. I would definately second a couple of thingys. I agree a female pup would balance out the male-ness thing. Also, I would NOT seperate the pup from the older dogs, just close supervision and strong leadership from you. By seperating you are showing the older dogs this new pup is not a part of our pack from the beginning. For first introductions, (especially with older dogs still figuring out pack order),if you have a place away from your home, like a park or an empty field... somewhere that does not "belong" to ANY of the older dogs, (so no territorial guarding is necessary at first)... that would be the best environment for an intro of all doggies (on leash). If you have another person or 2 to go with you, have someone else other than you, walk the new pup for the initial intro, then switch doggies several times so everyone has each dog for a few minutes of walking together... this always helps as a non threatening introduction, which in turn "should" help when "we all go home together". You probably already know this stuff anyway. The other thing "I" would do is not throw toys in house if you think that is a catalyst for "trouble", til everyone has figured their place in the pack. Keeping play in a very open space allows for whomever chooses to get away, if they want. I would feed new pup either on leash, or tethered to say a table leg or in crate (so she/he dosen't go running up to another dog and get in "trouble". Stay in same room but pick a spot for her/him to eat. I agree with the NILIF method also, and extend that to the new pup. If everything you try just dosen't seem to be working out, the next thing I would do before I would consider PTS, is "drugs", (the next to last solution ). I would rather "mellow" out the instigator/trouble maker or finisher than the dreaded PTS. Isn't it just like us grandmas in this day and age to be raising our grandchildren!! LOL I'm sure I haven't said anything you haven't already considered or know, but my heart goes out for you. You are so right about looking into those big eyes and having any thoughts cept, "love", and it is only obvious you love him. A new puppy! wow... how exciting. Have you actually picked her/him out yet? Have you decided on a name? You know we all expect pictures.... Good luck... our postive collective thoughts are with you and your critters! (((hugs))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Originally posted by katydid & Furry Friends:I beleive all puppies get slack with older dogs, and would hope where the puppy comes from he's allowed to meet and greet and play with all the dogs. Most, but not all dogs will give a puppy slack. I had an animal aggressive dog that would have torn a tiny puppy apart. It doesn't sound like Otis is that disturbed, but I'd be very careful introducing him to a puppy. He's so big that even being a little jerky, he could do some real damage to a pup. This is really a decision that only you can make. No one who isn't in your shoes can fully know what you are dealing with. So yes, consider all your options thoughtfully, but remember you are the one who needs to live with the decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted July 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Laura, you are right. He does have arthritis. He is almost 9 which is really quite old for a large dog. As far as the throwing toys, yeah, bad habit on my part! Especially with new pup, it will get only crazier! Need to work on that one. And yes, a female pup would be best. It is what I wanted, however Hope did not cooperate and only put out 2 females and the breeder, Bill, is keeping one and someone further on the list took the other. I have already paid my deposit and I really want this pup out of Hope and Bud. So, it will be another boy. Poor Cheyenne! Or maybe lucky! Don't know! JoeAnne thanks for the support! And to be honest, I never thought about taking them somewhere else for the intro. Thanks for the heads up on that. Well, unless Otis all of a sudden turns vicious, or starts hurting the others, we will just have to muddle through this and take issues as they arise. Instead of me jumping the gun on "could be's"! Oh, another thing, on feeding. I free feed all the dogs. Cheyenne and Jackson's food and water is in the kitchen, Otis's is in his room. And his room is the one place Jackson and Cheyenne are NEVER allowed in. It is only fair that he has one place that is truly his alone. So, I will have to teach the new pup to stay out of that room also. Jeeze, what a dog mom I am! Instead of crates I give them rooms! LOL Thanks all for the advice and support. Poor Otis has lost so much, and I am sure he is feeling pretty too. He deserves to have a family and it looks like I am it! We will just have to learn to get along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Thanks all for the advice and support. Poor Otis has lost so much, and I am sure he is feeling pretty too. He deserves to have a family and it looks like I am it! We will just have to learn to get along.Yes! Now that's a take charge attitude and a win win situation for all Glass half full. Good luck and have fun! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Natalie, Otis being part pit doesn't worry me. It's that HUGE rott mouth!I just assumed the pit part because they can be dog-aggressive.... rottis may have huge mouths, but they're big babies. You'll have to show some pics of Otis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy525 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Linda, one thing to consider. As Otis is such a large dog, he is likely (painful, sorry) very close to the end of his life span. That would come into my consideration as this is not likely to be a long-term problem, there are a lot of difficulties I can put up with when I know it is a short-term problem. Sorry you got stuck with this situation. You are a very good person to be dealing with it. I had a golden who I never heard a growl out of until we got a second golden near the end of her life (well, once she growled at a crazy aunt who tried to hold our first babies, but that was the ONLY growl I had ever heard from her). If a problem does appear with the new pup, could you keep them separated if you had to? Knowing that you wouldn't have to do that forever. Has he had any experience with pups? I bet you'll be fine, I agree with meeting on neutral ground, but as long as you supervise, I bet they will be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordi44 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I had the same thought as Tammy - he's getting old for a dog of that type. I would also agree with controlled integrating with the pup. You never know - they might be love at first sight. I'd be careful and keep them separated when you can't be there though - especially since an active puppy sure can aggravate one with arthritis. Another suggestion - he's not good with strangers, but is there anyone you know that might be interested in having him? Could you slowly introduce him to them - have them casually visit - not paying any attention to him until he gets used to them, that sort of thing? Or is he just "death to strangers" end of conversation? My daughter's Spitz mix would be difficult if we needed to find a new home for her - she's timid aggressive - but once she does get to know someone, she's their best buddy - especially if they like to scratch her ears and butt. It's often tough, but it is possible to find new homes for difficult cases - it just takes time, patience, and a clear understanding of any problems - current or potential - that the new owner might face. I had to re-home a BC after he bit my daughter (as a toddler). He was a very dominant personality & timid aggressive, but I found a good match for him - older couple that had no neighbor kids or grandkids - and they loved him to the day he died. It took a couple visits - he started off playing with the other dogs where Jack could watch - which about drove him nuts. He was so worried about getting his share of play time, he didn't care who was playing with him. And luck have it, this guy had a truck just like mine - and Jack never blinked an eye about jumping in to go with him (there was that momentary fear that Jack wouldn't let him into his truck). So you have to do what's best for all of you. If it works to keep him, do so, or at least try it with the new pup. If it doesn't work out, then see what you can find for him. He's had enough tough breaks that I'd have a very tough time putting him down - but sometimes, that is the best option when all else fails. Personally, at his age and with his history, I'd put him to sleep before putting him into a shelter of any kind. Good luck - hope everyone works out. It gets tough keeping all the kids in harmony sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted July 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Jordi, he would be fine with strangers once he knew they were suppose to be there. My prob is that I have seen him with a total stranger, not pretty, it was good he was behind the metal screen door! I just can't say 100% he would not turn on someone who took him, so I am not willing to do that. Tammy, yes, he is getting close to his end time. I don't think he deserves to have his whole world turned upside down so late in life. He lost his family, but as I have been around him since puppy hood and he has lived with me several times in his life, it is not so bad for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted July 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 This is Otis with DH. That is a 4ft fence. This is Otis and Jackson, waiting for a Scooby treat! And this is how close they can eat said treats! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think he's beautiful! I also think he could easily be a bit intimidating lol. Good luck with what you decide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordi44 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Just remember, it's always the quiet ones you have to look out for - but in this case, how could either angel ever do anything wrong? They both look very "innocent" in the pictures. Hope it works out for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Anne Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 AAAAAW! what a handsome pair! they look very kissable to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc friend Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 What a difficult situation for you. My 2 cents worth - as long as there was supervision for the dogs, I would let them mix together. When supervision can't be done, I would put Otis in his room. I have a soft spot for the older dogs and until it becomes a quality of life or safety issue, I can't PTS. It is clear that you love Otis despite the problems and from your posts, I think you would have a difficult time with a pts. Otis is lucky to have you - even if your decision is to pts, you have given him a lot of love and a better life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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