Could there be a correlation between aggression and abstention of purpose?

[dracina]

Ok, “purpose”, in my definition, is herding- for which border collies should be bred. Please, let’s not argue the other jobs for border collies- I agree and I am aware that there are many, but they are not relevant to my question.

 

Aggression in border collies has been discussed here many times (including by me, with my Jack dog). I have found that Jack (who has a history of fear-aggression- not working, only off sheep) is doing so much better since he has started WORKING sheep (off of the leash only, for those of you that know his history). Jack is a rescue, so I have no idea whether or not he was bred to work. But I do know that he is keen....very keen. However, I still see a slight aggressive reaction to pressure (off sheep), which I think may stem from his inexperience ON sheep. Could this be possible?

 

We do not practice that often, although we are going to a clinic this weekend. On sheep, he is not afraid to grip, which also could be a reaction to pressure.

 

I know that some of you have working dogs that have exhibited aggressive behavior off of sheep, but I would like to hear from all who want to have input.

 

I am curious, because I have seen a remarkable difference in Jack within a very short time. Can anyone present an argument for or against this issue? Could there be a correlation between aggression and abstention of purpose?

 

Karrin

[Debbie Meier]

One person's opinion, based on having dogs that were aggressive toward people before they came to me, one bit a child on the side of the face the other would attack your hand/arm when you took him by the collar. When I took them to stock they had to learn how to channel their aggression and learn self control. As they learned it on stock it carried over to the none stock part of their lives.

 

Did lack of stock work contribute to the aggression, no, the people that had them before me attributed to their aggression, lack of structure in their lives attributed to their aggression.

 

If someone had taken them that did not have livestock, found a way to give them solid structure and could teach them self control I think it would have also helped their aggression issues, it just so happens that stock training did the trick. But it had to be done right, the dogs could not do as they pleased with the stock, they would grip just for fun, take stock to the ground and try to kill. I had to hold them to the highest standard of stockmenship requiring self control. Bea, the dog I won with this past weekend was one of those dogs.

 

Deb

[dracina]

Thanks, and good answer, Deb. I did not realize that you also have a dog that could be considered "aggressive" under certain circumstances.

 

I want to clarify that Jack is not necessarily people-aggressive: he can be aggressive toward whatever is closest to him when he experiences fear. When working, however, he does not grip to kill, he grips to get the sheep where he wants them to be. That, to me, is not aggession, but a reaction to pressure. BUT, I am wondering if there is some sort of correlation here: Jack sometimes also reacts aggressively to the same type of pressure OFF sheep (for example, people or dogs or things not being where he wants them to be to feel comfortable). As he learns how to accept the pressure on sheep, and gains experience, will that carry over to life in general?

 

Now that I think about it, abstention is not the correct word... rather, denial of purpose- and not by his own choice!

 

Karrin

[Debbie Meier]

When Jack is gripping are the sheep moving or are they refusing to move?

[mbc1963]

I read that BCs are among the breeds that exhibit most wolf-like behavior, because herding drive is modified hunting drive. Breeding out the "wildness" would breed out the herding, yes?

 

So, maybe it's the wolfishness of the genes linked to good herding ability that also make potentially aggressive (or snappish or reactive) dogs?

 

I'm not sure my theory is really valid: when you Google "dog bites statistics breeds," the herding dogs aren't listed in the bitiest breeds. The expected wolf hybrids/presa canario types show up, and then the little nipper ones like dachshunds and chihuahuas.

 

It does make sense that being given a job of herding actual stock would replace the "aggressive" behavior of herding kids or - my dog's behavior - monitoring and correcting rude behavior in other dogs. I could see Buddy's dog-control-policeman service as a side-directed herding instinct with nothing else to do. If he were allowed to redirect wayward sheep, maybe he'd feel fulfilled.

 

Interesting question!

 

Mary

 

Mary

[juliepoudrier]

I think that fulfilling a purpose can certainly help any dog, or human, be more stable in other aspects of life outside of the work. But I don't look at it as the dog getting to control sheep and therefor it's happier, but rather that the real work is mentally and physically demanding, and that in itself probably brings more stability in other aspects of life.

 

For example, when I jog regularly I simply feel good, and my mental state is on a much more even keel. I kind of look at working dogs the same way. That said, I have a dog who is fear aggressive. I used to work him some, and although he had some natural ability, he really didn't want to partner with a human (i.e., he absolutely could not take training pressure, even when it was minimal), and his behavior was not different when he was working as when he wasn't. So I don't think work "satisfies" some innate "need" per se, but rather that the work provides a physical and mental "release" (for lack of a better term) that may in turn allow the dog to cope better with the rest of life.

 

J.

[Smokjbc]

I think that fulfilling a purpose can certainly help any dog, or human, be more stable in other aspects of life outside of the work. But I don't look at it as the dog getting to control sheep and therefor it's happier, but rather that the real work is mentally and physically demanding, and that in itself probably brings more stability in other aspects of life.

 

J.

 

I think this is pretty much the key- but really true for any dog. I just have never thought of Border Collies as inherently aggressive and in need of "special treatment" to prevent aggression. I've owned quite a few at this point and never had one that was aggressive towards humans or strange dogs (I have a few pairs that can't stand each other, but that's pack dynamic, not aggression). The very few times I've had one of my dogs threaten to bite was when they were very scared/cornered. I have had three border collies that did not like kids, but they always responded by hitting the ground or trying to hide from them- even if rushed upon and hugged by a child before I could stop it- they never bit but did look like they wanted to get away as soon as possible .

 

So much of it is common sense handling from the beginning- they are easily stimulated into neurotic behaviors if you don't discourage them from the beginning. I think many border collie owners lack the knowledge to see these things happening and/or make way too big of an issue of it and create a problem where there wasn't one.

[Pam Wolf]

This comes up on training boards from time to time. It is not herding that prevents/corrects aggression, but rather the physical and mental activity that does it. I currently have a student referred here due to aggression and this is my story and I am sticking to it.

 

Aggression is an owner issue. Most herding instructors (OK, the good ones) will NOT tolerate aggression from a dog. Thus ends the problem

 

Aggression can also have a heridetary start, but it is the owners who fail the dog by not handling/socializing/exercising the dog's mind as well as his body

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

A LOT of snappy problems in Border Collies comes from the dog not having a "structured" enough life. I used to work with a lot of dogs that either were borderline on their working abilities (pet dogs that really needed some kind of real work) or working dogs that lacked a piece here and there and therefore weren't useful as stockdogs. In both cases, "biters" could be fixed by a strict routine, being shown firm boundaries, and eventually introducing work that they were capable of.

 

BUT, the work wasn't the therapy. I never started there. It was putting the dog into a "work like" routine that re-shaped the behaviors.

 

Please note - not all or even most aggression is to be solved this way. It's only certain dogs.

[dracina]

I think that fulfilling a purpose can certainly help any dog, or human, be more stable in other aspects of life outside of the work. But I don't look at it as the dog getting to control sheep and therefor it's happier, but rather that the real work is mentally and physically demanding, and that in itself probably brings more stability in other aspects of life.

 

For example, when I jog regularly I simply feel good, and my mental state is on a much more even keel. I kind of look at working dogs the same way. That said, I have a dog who is fear aggressive. I used to work him some, and although he had some natural ability, he really didn't want to partner with a human (i.e., he absolutely could not take training pressure, even when it was minimal), and his behavior was not different when he was working as when he wasn't. So I don't think work "satisfies" some innate "need" per se, but rather that the work provides a physical and mental "release" (for lack of a better term) that may in turn allow the dog to cope better with the rest of life.

 

J.

 

Hi Julie:

I agree with this. But, Jack did and still does have some measure of mental and physical release without the herding. It is not as though he was physically and mentally atrophied before stock- he had formal obedience class, agility practice at home, frisbee EVERY day for 15-30 mins, 4-5 daily walks, and the mental stimulation of having me home with him and my other pup almost daily. I do think that the points made that this release is necessary for a well-adjusted dog (or human!) of ANY breed is absolutely correct.

 

When we first started on stock, Jack was on the leash (as some of you remember). Strangely, it was after those first experiences that his off-stock fear aggression began. Specifically, his fears seem to be pressure-related, like walking up on him.

 

When Jack first did get a real experience on sheep, the first thing he did when the sheep began to get away from him was grip. After a few minutes, he realized that he didn't have to do that to control the sheep. It was after that experience that his off-sheep demeanor seemed to switch; almost overnight, it seemed. He is not so pressure-sensitive at home anymore. Crazy? Perhaps, but that is what lead me to form a connection between aggression/denial.

 

That is why I am inclined to think that it is not that simple. Maybe for some dogs, the need to herd is so great that when denied, they become frustrated?

 

Karrin

 

ETA: Disclaimer! I am certainly not implying either of the following: 1)Agressive dogs can be 'cured' by herding; or 2) Border collies have more instances of aggression than other breeds, so please don't read that into this discussion.

[dracina]

This comes up on training boards from time to time. It is not herding that prevents/corrects aggression, but rather the physical and mental activity that does it. I currently have a student referred here due to aggression and this is my story and I am sticking to it.

 

Aggression is an owner issue. Most herding instructors (OK, the good ones) will NOT tolerate aggression from a dog. Thus ends the problem

 

Aggression can also have a heridetary start, but it is the owners who fail the dog by not handling/socializing/exercising the dog's mind as well as his body

 

The question doesn't really have anything to do with aggression while working sheep, as I have never seen that. Unless you call a grip "aggression", which I do not. I think that a grip is necessary sometimes- just not a grip to take down or kill. To me, gripping due to pressure is not equal to aggression toward a human. I think that is what you mean when you say that agression would not be tolerated?

 

I do not think that one can fairly and categorically say that "aggression is an owner issue". There are some really great, top-notch handlers here that have had issues with aggressive dogs. But please, let's not get into that again- aggression ALONE is not the issue here: it is the association between working sheep and off-sheep behavior.

 

 

Karrin

[juliepoudrier]

Karrin,

I think where your argument falls down is that playing frisbee, playing with the human or another dog, or even obedience (once learned) is not really mentally taxing on a dog. If I had to speculate about Jack in particular, I would say that while he was on the line, he wasn't really being allowed to think and use his mind (and thinking about another species and how to control it is *nothing* like thinking about chasing a frisbee or doing obedience) to do his job and so what you were seeing was frustration. Once he had the freedom to really try to work stock, he had to do his own thinking (part of that process was figuring out that gripping wasn't needed--and many, many young/new working dogs go through that "gotta grab 'em" stage).

 

I liken the mental exercise a dog has to do to truly control livestock more like doing calculus vs. basic addition (or maybe a better analogy would be playing chess vs. tic tac toe) for activities like playing or obedience (I'm not knocking obedience or agility, but once the dog knows the commands or knows how to "scale" the eqipment in agility, the hard mental work is done--a dog working stock has to constantly adjust to the changing movement, pressures, etc., from the stock--and the human--so it's an ever-changing mental exercise: change and response, followed by additional change and response over and over again the whole time the dog is working, and that is what results in a constant mental workout while on stock and ultimately a "happier" dog all around. I'm probably not saying this very well and of course it's just my opinion....

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

I do not think that one can fairly and categorically say that "aggression is an owner issue". There are some really great, top-notch handlers here that have had issues with aggressive dogs. But please, let's not get into that again- aggression ALONE is not the issue here: it is the association between working sheep and off-sheep behavior.

Not trying to lump myself in with the "top-notch" designation, but FWIW, the one fear aggressive dog I own is one I did not raise and whose raising was sporadic and mentally neglectful. I do believe that there are dogs who are genetically aggressive (born that way), but I believe that a majority of aggressive dogs are made that way through inappropriate upbringing. Most of the aggressive dogs we hear about on this forum are dogs who were adopted as young adults, so of course there's no way to know for sure the nature vs. nurture question, but I suspect that much aggressiveness is the result of perhaps a genetic propensity toward aggressiveness combined with poor rearing at critical stages in the dog's life.

 

J.

[dracina]

Karrin,

I think where your argument falls down is that playing frisbee, playing with the human or another dog, or even obedience (once learned) is not really mentally taxing on a dog. If I had to speculate about Jack in particular, I would say that while he was on the line, he wasn't really being allowed to think and use his mind (and thinking about another species and how to control it is *nothing* like thinking about chasing a frisbee or doing obedience) to do his job and so what you were seeing was frustration. Once he had the freedom to really try to work stock, he had to do his own thinking (part of that process was figuring out that gripping wasn't needed--and many, many young/new working dogs go through that "gotta grab 'em" stage).

 

I liken the mental exercise a dog has to do to truly control livestock more like doing calculus vs. basic addition (or maybe a better analogy would be playing chess vs. tic tac toe) for activities like playing or obedience (I'm not knocking obedience or agility, but once the dog knows the commands or knows how to "scale" the eqipment in agility, the hard mental work is done--a dog working stock has to constantly adjust to the changing movement, pressures, etc., from the stock--and the human--so it's an ever-changing mental exercise: change and response, followed by additional change and response over and over again the whole time the dog is working, and that is what results in a constant mental workout while on stock and ultimately a "happier" dog all around. I'm probably not saying this very well and of course it's just my opinion....

 

J.

 

I think you said that very nicely! Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but I think that what you are saying is:

 

Some dogs are less mentally stimulated by other dog activities, like agility, frisbee, etc. than they are by controling stock. Potentially, then, for these dogs, stockwork = mental stimulation = happiness.

 

Then a "happier" and better-adjusted dog should have less incidents of aggressive behavior. Happier = less aggressive

 

Which would then say, for a certain type of dog, stockwork = less aggression?

 

That is exactly what I am arguing, but it is exactly that point that I think is questionable. For Jack, I have noticed that this seems to be true.

 

Karrin

[Pam Wolf]

The question doesn't really have anything to do with aggression while working sheep, as I have never seen that. Unless you call a grip "aggression", which I do not. I think that a grip is necessary sometimes- just not a grip to take down or kill. To me, gripping due to pressure is not equal to aggression toward a human. I think that is what you mean when you say that agression would not be tolerated?

 

I do not think that one can fairly and categorically say that "aggression is an owner issue". There are some really great, top-notch handlers here that have had issues with aggressive dogs. But please, let's not get into that again- aggression ALONE is not the issue here: it is the association between working sheep and off-sheep behavior.

Karrin

 

 

Probably because I deal more with farmers, they will not tolerate a dog that bites humans, that is the agggression I speak of. Most DO want an'aggressive' stock dog as most are cattlemen (assertive is what they really want, but theysay 'aggressive')

 

And, YES, agression is an owner issue. Sometimes it is lack of knowledge/information on the part of the owner, sometimes it is just plain stupidity/laziness. The first could be fixed with good access to information on preventing aggression in pups, like early training/socialization and bite inhibition. If this is not done as a young pup, it is more difficult if not impossible in some dogs to really 'cure' but it can be managed, which becomes an 'owner issue'

 

My first dog as an adult (not a BC)could have been a nightmare of a dog, was everything you shouldn't get as a pup, and yes, he had aggression issues as a pup. I worked VERY hard with him and he ended up being a dog that I always had to manage, and I did as he never bit anyone (well, he got me going for sticks/frisbee on occassion but that is not aggression)

 

And I do believe there are just some dogs that are 'crazy' but they are few and far between (thank goodness!). I do know that the breeder of my first BC would shoot any dog that was 6 mos old and still very shy-needless to say, he had friendly dogs at a time when many BC's had very poor temperments. And choosing a breeder is an owner responsibility. A good breeder will start with neonatal handling to help the pup adjust to stress, choose breeding stock with good temperments and do some early socialization and possibly training depending on the age of the pup.

 

And if you want to check out more on owner responsibility for temperment issues, check out information by Dr. Ian Dunbar.

[dracina]

Thanks for clarifying, Pam. I think that I misunderstood what you meant by "owner's issue"; I took this to mean that you think aggression is always caused by owner mishandling. While I agree that this could absolutely be true, even the best of handlers sometimes get a dog that can have a tendency towards aggression. It IS all about management, and I agree that it is the owner's responsibility to manage their dog.

 

My Jack was a rescue; we got him at about 1 year old; so we have no idea what his genetics are or what his upbringing was like. But, I don't think that is an excuse for any sort of aggression- he is with me now, and he has to learn how to act accordingly. That's not to say that he does 100% of the time, but he is being shown on a daily basis what is acceptable and what is not.

 

Karrin

[hsnrs]

Pam, I totally agree with you. My dog is dog aggressive at times and it is all my fault. We live in the boonies and don't see many dogs. We are trying to make this easier for our new pup by exposing her to folks in town. I agree that the stock work our dogs do helps them focus on something other than getting into fights. It seems to be my 2 females and not the other dogs at present who don't get along. The stock work helps them channel their energy into better activities to make them tired both physically and mentally. From the trials we have gone to for about 5 years now the Border Collies are the most mellow to me. N

[Pam Wolf]

I got to thinking about the question more, yes, a lack of herding can attribute to the dog's aggression, but not for the reasons you think. But rather that people today are less aware of animal interactions due to living a more urban exhistance and THIS leads to more incidents of aggression. Additionally, more are 'reported' or discussed because not growing up around animals leaves many people unaware of how to cope with or recognize beginning problems so they become full scale problems. Additionally, it leads to more reports/discussions because people used to accept the fact that dogs can bite if certain things are done to them

[dracina]

I got to thinking about the question more, yes, a lack of herding can attribute to the dog's aggression, but not for the reasons you think. But rather that people today are less aware of animal interactions due to living a more urban exhistance and THIS leads to more incidents of aggression. Additionally, more are 'reported' or discussed because not growing up around animals leaves many people unaware of how to cope with or recognize beginning problems so they become full scale problems. Additionally, it leads to more reports/discussions because people used to accept the fact that dogs can bite if certain things are done to them

 

Pam, I think that what you've just said is very interesting. I often have thought that because we (me, my husband, and the dogs and cats) live an urban existance (Chicago), that the constant stimulation affects Jack in a manner that is not good. Is that what you mean by urban existance may instigate aggression?

 

When Jack is out on a farm and working, his issues are non-existant. Same owner, different environment, no aggression. That is where I feel the owner is always responsible thing doesn't apply. Which logically says to me, stockwork may be the key to less aggression (for Jack, at least). Or maybe it is not just stockwork that is helping him- maybe it is that he is out of the constant stimulation.

On the other hand, he is often in areas that are open and unpopulated, playing frisbee or hiking or whatever, and I still have noticed this posturing.

 

I feel this need to clarify every time I mention the word "aggression": When I speak of Jack's aggression it's not necessarily about biting humans (Jack has bitten before, but the one incident was isolated, and under questionable circumstances). It is really about the aggressive posturing (lip-licking, glaring, jumping up, barking)- which always seems to me to be a reaction to pressure. He is now great with other dogs (actually, rather disinterested); but did go through a period of attacking my other pup when he was pressured (that also has ceased).

 

Anyway, I wanted to see if anyone else with a dog that was previously aggressive has noticed a change since/if they started working stock.

 

For the record, I did grow up in a rural area around lots of animals, and we had loads of different dogs growing up. Just not border collies.

 

Thanks for replying, Pam; I think that you always have something relevant to say!

 

Karrin

[Pam Wolf]

To some extent, but I feel it is still mainly owner related-because they don't understand how to observe and direct behaviour problems when the very first signs come up. Dogs are VERY subtle in their behaviour. yes, additional stress of an urban life could lower the threshhold for SOME dogs, but mainly it is because the owners somehow missed or mismanaged some early behaviours.

 

Yse, some dogs are nuts, but they are very few and far between and I deal with alot of aggressive dogs in training, but most are caused (maybe not by the present owner) by the owners ignoring (usually out of not knowing) the beginnings of problems and not doing preventative measures. Sometimes the aggression is a dirrect result of poor obedience training techniques.

 

You ask if I have (and others) seen any changes in aggression since dogs start working, yes, but it is because I educate owners who often come to me for 'herding' because someone referred them to me for their dog's is aggression. I FULLY believe it is the structure they are given and the increased knowledge of their dogs behaviour that help these owners. I also give htem techniques on handling/preventing and correcting the aggression issues they already have, by giving the dog more structure and guidance in it's daily life. And frankly I could do it without 'herding' and often do for the same behaviour problems with other breeds.

 

When Jack is on the farm, his interest lies elsewhere. Dogs are not great at generalizing and while he may not be aggressive on the farm, when he is at home it is a different situation in his mind. The 'aggression' you mention are ALL signs of stress which is not being handled (just an observation, not a critism of you). Yes, the physical activity, probably greater tahn when in the city and the mental activity of stock work do help allieviate stress, much in the same manner of a 'runner's high'. Unknown to you, you have become more aware of his signs and are probaly now responding to them faster which helps the aggression

 

It is great that you have helped him overcome his problems, keep up the good work

[dracina]

Those are very good points that you brought up, Pam. I never really thought of it like that. I am going to really consider what you've said- we're going to a clinic this weekend, and I will really try to look a bit closer at his situation. Thanks for your input!

 

Karrin

[mbc1963]

Karrin and Pam... interesting points!

 

I got Buddy when he was nearly two, so had no control over how he was influenced by environment when he was young. The nature/nurture debate certainly applies here: had I gotten Buddy as a puppy and spent time on correct socializing and structure, might he be much calmer and more independent? Maybe. Maybe not. I know some people on thess boards end up with reactive dogs despite raising them from puppyhood.

 

My dog could be labeled "aggressive" in that he does the same sort of posturing that Jack does; he does not want strange dogs moving to meet too quickly. In a bad situation, he'll pin the other dog and do some direct-stare snarling until he releases them. (This has only happened maybe three times - but I've been happy to note that after the pin, Buddy shows no signs of trying to bite or harm; he is just very serious about cussing the other dogs out.)

 

Buddy has no "work," but like Jack, he's a different dog when he's in an environment that makes him comfortable: in his house with people he loves, on a walk with dogs he knows, out in the woods away from other dogs, or even roaming the flea market, which is gigantic, noisy, human chaos punctuated by friendly folks dropping pieces of hot dogs, hamburgers, and donuts.

 

As Pam said, it's the lack of generalizing that creates Buddy's problems, I think. He can meet 1,000 friendly dogs, but that doesn't mean the next one might not be out to get him, as he seems to expect. He knows the people at our specific flea market are friendly and drop hot dogs, but if I took him to a different one, I suspect he'd show signs of fear and reactivity again.

 

I like the idea that it's the "knowing of purpose" and the structure involved in herding that helps with the aggression - plus the acceptance by the owners that they have to purposefully work with the dogs.

 

Mary

[Pam Wolf]

I don't think that stock work in itself fixes aggression, but the structure and mental stimulation that does the trick.

 

It is innately rewarding, so may bring the endorphins up quicker, something for a study perhaps. It would also bring the endorphins up because it is a primary reinforcer, and doesn't rely on learned reinforcers.

 

I still adhere ot the theory that it is the structure and the physical/mental activity that does the trick, otherwise, why would mental/physical activity and structure work on ALL breeds?

 

Following the logic that it is the herding, then other breeds should not respond so well unless they met with their 'genetic' purpose. Sure, the original purpose can help, but it usually involves physical activity (geeze, sound like CM!) and often mental stimulation, something lacking from most pet dogs (not necessarily members of this board)

[juliepoudrier]

Pam,

Your last post clarifies what I was trying to say earlier. And it's funny, because I thought about how much what I was saying was very CM-like as well. Structure, activity, and mental stimulation can go a long way to relieving issues, I think. I personally think that while physical exercise is important, it's the mental stimulation--being required to think about a situation and react in real time that can make a big difference. It's why Karrin has seen the change in Jack that she's seen, but like you, I think that it doesn't have to be so much a dog living out its purpose (in Jack's case stockwork) as it does a dog being required to think, react, deal with situations as they arise (figure out cause and effect and use it to the dog's advantage), exhibit control, etc., all in a larger framework that involves structure and clear right and wrong, that makes a difference.

 

I also agree with the thought you had regarding the fact that for the *human* stockwork is just as important for developing the ability to read even the most subtle signs that indicate what an animal (dog or otherwise) might be thinking of doing in the next moments. I think it's safe to say that working stock improves the skills of the human half of the equation, which translates into better management of the dog.

 

Like I said in my original post, jogging makes me feel better about life in general--that is, it helps me find mental balance. I am generally not exhausted when I finish a day's workout, so that's where my thinking on the subject might depart from CM's, because I don't think you need to physically wear an animal out in order to help it find self-control. It's the mental workout and the physiological changes that come from both mental and physical (structured) exercise that make a difference, IMO.

 

 

J.

[dracina]

I just returned from an awesome clinic, where I just about tripled everything I thought I knew (which was not much) about stockwork and dogs. It was truly amazing, and I am totally in awe!

 

However, my dogs acted like little hellions. They acted as if they run wild on a daily basis through the streets like a nasty little gang of border collie thugs. It was ridiculous; and I realized that although I *thought* I was giving them enough of what Julie and Pam describe (mental enagement, structure, consistency, and firmness), I am not even coming close. So you guys are all right. In my case, this type of aggression and poor behavior definitely are an owner issue, and it is up to me to get it under control now, or risk humiliation (or worse).

 

I have so much to learn!

 

Thanks!!

 

Karrin