Neutering herding dog

[ejano]

Just curious....Is the value (dollar wise) of a herding dog in their own ability or in the prospect of them being able to pass on the trait to offspring?

[Pam Wolf]

Just curious....Is the value (dollar wise) of a herding dog in their own ability or in the prospect of them being able to pass on the trait to offspring?

 

 

Depends on how good he is. And if he is just a piece of training or if he has lots of natural talent

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

In general, there's enough really good dogs out there that a novice doesn't need to worry about taking potential greatness out of the gene pool. When I had females, that was my rule of thumb. I let them mature and then took care of the whole heat/breeding question - it was a no brainer for me.

 

With the males, there is the fact that they can breed until a very late age. Also, sex hormones seem to be helpful in the later growth of a male where it doesn't seem to matter much for a female.

 

My male who is three, won't be neutered unless there's some health issue that requires it (or if he really bombs as an open dog). I am unlikely to take him to a level where I'd be comfortable breeding him, myself. But if anything happened to me, there's a few open handlers who I know would take him.

 

I guess that's kind of the thing. If one has a reason to go ahead and neuter, then do it. Resale value shouldn't, in my opinion, be an issue - it's the good of the dog and what YOU need. There's plenty of good homes available for a useful dog, regardless of breeding status.

[juliepoudrier]

I would think that a great working dog's value would be in his prepotency or at least in the consistency of his/her particular line to be good producers.

 

ETA: But as Becca said, most folks don't have to worry that they're taking the next best thing to sliced bread out of the gene pool by neutering. My answer above was based on your question and not the subject line of your thread. In the case of my anwer, the value would be in the actual ability to pass on those traits, and not just the prospect.

 

J.

[Lane Campbell]

I have had a few good dogs but I have never really had a GREAT one so I guess I can only

offer a limited opinion. I feel like I need my dogs in my operation so the work is the most

important thing. If I had to replace my dogs today I would try to find ones that can do the

work and really would not care that it were spayed or castrated. I have days I work more

than one dog and really don't have the desire to worry about females at home so I have

spayed females.

 

 

Lane

[ejano]

Well, I know there's enough of Robin's relations around so that he won't be missed. I have no intentions of offering him for breeding and would prefer to have him neutered but several BC people who have seen him have suggested that I not because he demonstrates innate ability and is a handsome, healthy, (red tri-colored) pup who is very eager to learn what you want him to do and picks up his lessons quickly.....I made his "appointment" for the end of August and then had second thoughts, but I really don't intend to train him for livestock, since I don't have any and wouldn't be able to complete in trials due to some recent and possibly reoccurring health issues. Someone else would have to take him over and I wouldn't want that unless I couldn't keep him (again for health reasons), but then, as you say, there's always a good home for a good dog. I'm planning to work at obedience and agility. Having summed up all of that, I'm keeping the appointment.

 

Thanks,

Liz

[Smokjbc]

Well, I know there's enough of Robin's relations around so that he won't be missed. I have no intentions of offering him for breeding and would prefer to have him neutered but several BC people who have seen him have suggested that I not because he demonstrates innate ability and is a handsome, healthy, (red tri-colored) pup who is very eager to learn what you want him to do and picks up his lessons quickly.....I made his "appointment" for the end of August and then had second thoughts, but I really don't intend to train him for livestock, since I don't have any and wouldn't be able to complete in trials due to some recent and possibly reoccurring health issues. Someone else would have to take him over and I wouldn't want that unless I couldn't keep him (again for health reasons), but then, as you say, there's always a good home for a good dog. I'm planning to work at obedience and agility. Having summed up all of that, I'm keeping the appointment.

 

Thanks,

Liz

 

 

If you do not intend for him to work stock, I think it is an excellent idea to neuter him. Personally, I feel that most of us (the really, really Big Hats not included) need about 3-4 years to properly evaluate a TRAINED dog before deciding if it is breeding quality. I started out wanting to breed more, and I did produce two litters- one when I was completely clueless and another I feel wasn't too bad. The last one was 9 years ago, and while I really like the dogs I have now, I haven't had one since my Rhett that I thought was breeding quality. We have two young intact dogs here now, but it's too soon to tell for Jet (1 1/2 years) and for Brice, I think he needs to get a little further training wise before any verdict is made. There are intact dogs right now with the same breeding of both of them that are or will be trialing, so unless we want something for ourselves, they may never be bred.

[juliepoudrier]

Liz,

Good for you for keeping the appointment. Robin may be handsome and a fast learner, but of course that could describe a lot of border collies. If you don't plan to prove him on stock, then you are right to go ahead and neuter him. He'll still be as handsome as ever and a great ambassador for the breed, but no one will be tempted to use him for breeding just for his color or good looks, and that's a good thing!

 

J.

[ejano]

Personally, I feel that most of us (the really, really Big Hats not included) need about 3-4 years to properly evaluate a TRAINED dog before deciding if it is breeding quality.

 

 

....And therein lies the rub....it's somewhat of a guessing game if you prefer to spay/ neuter early (i.e. six months) as I do, because I think its easier on the animal....so off we go to the vet, as I know there are several relatives in his line that are or will be available for breeding -- one or two of them share his beautiful red coat as well.

 

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

Liz,

Red is recessive, so it's entirely possible that any B&W relatives of your pup can also produce a red coat. You don't have to have a red dog to produce a red dog (and that's why red is as common as it is, given that it was not--and still is not in some cases--viewed as desirable among shepherds, but it was carried along as a recessive gene in B&W dogs and so could pop up at any time). And of coourse, breeding for color isn't a good reason to breed anyway....

 

J.

[Pam Wolf]

The fact that your friends think he iddesirable as a stud because of his looks and colour says you should seek new friends (just kidding!)

 

If your friend's desire to breed based as much on looks as ability, I question their knowledge of ability and due to that fact, I would have to question the necessity of his being used for breeding.

 

Now, if colour was just an 'extra' and he was already out working the ranch well and/or running well in Open then YES, I'd say do not neuter.

 

As for early neuter, I am one who believes in waiting til about 18 mos as a min due to growth factors, both mental and physical

[ejano]

The fact that your friends think he iddesirable as a stud because of his looks and colour says you should seek new friends (just kidding!)

 

 

 

As for early neuter, I am one who believes in waiting til about 18 mos as a min due to growth factors, both mental and physical

 

 

Not friends exactly but those who breed and work dogs who have seen him are suggesting I hold off until he's a little older to see what he's really made of....yes, his color is attractive, but even more so are his physical soundness, intelligence, easy manners, temperament, and willingness to work at what he is asked to do. He's just an all around good pup --- even if he does like wallowing in the mud , but as others have said, there are many, many good pups - probably too many as our rescue board indicates.

 

My underlying concern that prompted the question was, as I've said, a health concern that might in the future necessitate me giving him up and I wouldn't want to do anything now that might impact his chances for a good home, but I've been reassured on that point.

 

I will have another conversation with the vet about an appropriate age for the procedure.

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

If he's a great dog, you should have no problem finding him a home should you need to give him up. Frankly, it probably would be better for him to already be neutered should that come to pass because then at least you'd know he wasn't going to be used just to produce puppies. He's wonderful now, but if he's not yet six months and hasn't hit adolescence, don't be surprised if he becomes a little booger when he hits his "teenage" period. That's not to say he won't come out the other side all sweetness and light, but don't be surprised if you also go through a trying period with him as he gets a bit older.

 

Do discuss with your vet the best age for neutering. If you're planning to do sports or any other similar activity, it's probably best to wait to neuter until his growth plates have closed. Of course that means you'll have to be diligent that he doesn't go out and breed stuff while you're waiting, but it may be best from a healthy growth point of view to wait beyond 6 months.

 

J.

[Cody & Duchess]

One - an admirable question.

Two - my grandson loves pitbulls. His family does not believe in spayed/neutering because they have such great pitbulls (mix). I showed him on petfinder the number of dogs looking for a home. Many people think they have the best dog out there - problem is, there are many dogs out there that desire the best homes possible. They are good, reliable, loving, etc - there are just more dogs than homes. Unless you are really knowledgeable, have lots of experience, and great herding dogs - look at the rescues and shelters, it will make you realize that this world does not need one more great bunch of puppies.

[Amelia]

Cody and Duchess, thanks you for your insightful post. You are exactly right and a visti to PetFinder always makes me sad. There are millions of dogs that will be killed this year for want of a home.

 

I have found that I can buy better dogs than I can produce and I have never bred a litter of my own. Price is in tact and I feel he's good enough to remain that way. At the request of others, he has sired some successful working and trialing dogs that are at least as good as he and has only been bred twice.

 

I have sold pretty talented dogs for good money that I cut for various reasons and found there was no hesitation on the part of buyers. I had more than one interested party to pick from, so I would have to say that there is no less value in working dogs that have been neutered.

 

I am a little bothered in this thread that there is discussion about color being a possible reason to leave a dog in tact. I understand that Liz is choosing to keep the appointment and that is a sound decision imho, but we are what we talk/think about, so I prefer discussions about working ability being the only good reason to breed. For me there are other deciding factors, but everything flows from that.

 

Cheers all,

[juliepoudrier]

I am a little bothered in this thread that there is discussion about color being a possible reason to leave a dog in tact.

Actually, speaking for myself, I have tried to point out the exact opposite--that is, color isn't a good reason to keep the dog intact. In fact, only the OP has suggested that his color is of any importance. Maybe I was being too subtle....

 

J.

[mjk05]

My underlying concern that prompted the question was, as I've said, a health concern that might in the future necessitate me giving him up and I wouldn't want to do anything now that might impact his chances for a good home,

I've found in doing a bit of rescue/rehoming that an already sterilised animal is actually a selling point for a lot of people, because they don't have to worry about getting it done. That's working homes as well as pet homes- we've placed a number of dogs in purely working farm homes where all their dogs are routinely sterilised so they don't ever have to worry about seasons/unplanned litters/visiting dogs with bitches or their own males getting into trouble. I'm always happy to hear that attitude, because it's usually one marker of the sort of working home that takes good care of their dogs.

 

I'd say the value of a working dog depends on who's considering buying it- for some people it might be in the likelihood of them winning trials, for another it might be in having a dog to get them reliably and safely around a trial course and teach them something, for others it might be in having a great mate who is good to have around and will also help them at work. And for some people part of the value might be in potential for breeding. But not everyone will consider breeding.

[ejano]

Actually, speaking for myself, I have tried to point out the exact opposite--that is, color isn't a good reason to keep the dog intact. In fact, only the OP has suggested that his color is of any importance. Maybe I was being too subtle....

 

J.

 

No --- Color was never the issue -- as I posited in my original question, it is the potential innate ability for herding that made me hesitate. He comes from excellent herding lines, one one side hard working farm dogs and on the other top trial dogs so the potential is there, but as I said, I can't trial him myself. We'll play instead and have fun with the local agility club and maybe some obedience trials and work at language. If he gets bored and frustrated, I'd give him over to someone who would train him for herding, but I think we'll be okay.

 

Though you couldn't tell from the silly picture in my avatar, he is a handsome red and color is important in the sense that some people like red dogs but not everyone (I'm still a fan of the traditional tuxedo markings myself) , so his red coat could impact his rehoming if that day should come and I sincerely hope it doesn't, but I wouldn't keep him intact for the color -- I've seen too many websites already that are advertising and breeding designer dogs for color . In fact, a breeder contacted me privately to ask if there were any red dogs left in the litter...thankfully they are all gone and the breeder we purchased Robin from isn't planning another litter for some time.

 

Thanks all for your help in making the right decision.

 

Liz

[ejano]

One - an admirable question.

Two - my grandson loves pitbulls. His family does not believe in spayed/neutering because they have such great pitbulls (mix). I showed him on petfinder the number of dogs looking for a home. Many people think they have the best dog out there - problem is, there are many dogs out there that desire the best homes possible. They are good, reliable, loving, etc - there are just more dogs than homes. Unless you are really knowledgeable, have lots of experience, and great herding dogs - look at the rescues and shelters, it will make you realize that this world does not need one more great bunch of puppies.

 

 

There's a tv show on animal planet where the lady drives up in a fancy sports car to retrain pets and owners....can't remember the name, but she did illustrate on one show the potential prodigy just one dog and offspring allowed to breed can produce. We've always had pound pups or rescue dogs....this is my first puppy since I was ten years old....(forty years ago!)

 

Liz