Proposal - Non BC Related or Off Topic Chat

[Genie]

Originally posted by Alaska:

I would like the ability to avoid wading through O/T posts, not always but sometimes. A separate section would do that.

I would like that too. The free time I have to read these boards varies widely and someimes I just want to see what's new with the regulars.

I've posted to other boards and have seen what was a good, informative board (not this one) change completely. That board has so many off topic posts that there is very little of substance or that relates to the original purpose of the board.

Creating an OT section will probably reduce the OT posts and those that enjoy them may be diappointed. Unfortunately, there is no ideal answer to please all. Still, I would have to vote for the OT section.

 

I would like to also propose, for discussion purposes, whether it might be worth having a section titled something like "New to Border Collies". There are days I feel like reading and maybe helping respond to those kinds of posts, and there are days when I just want to skim for new topics that haven't been addressed many times before but can hardly find them amongst all the repeat topics. Creating a section for "New To Border Collies" posts would not only allow some of us to skim that section lightly when we felt like it, but perhaps more important would make it easier for newbies to do focused searches for the answers to "basic" questions. At present, that sort of information is spread across at least 3-4 sections.

I really like this idea.

[ShoresDog]

I could go either way on the proposed OT section. I suspect that it would go a long way to killing off the OT topics, since fewer people would look at them. I kind of like them, since I feel like I'm really getting a sense of various people's personalities from them. But I can understand how longer term members might tire of them. Eileen does such a great job running these boards that I think we should just let her choose.

 

On the other hand, as to the possibility of a "New to Border Collies" thread, I would vote a strong NO. I would be afraid that the experienced BC owners might not look at that thread so often, and it would end up being a bunch of us novices misleading each other. Since signing up for this board, I have been deeply impressed by how much serious and useful advice and feedback is given to newbies by the knowledgable longtime members. I have learned so much from reading these exchanges. I would hate to see any change that might reduce this. It's just too good!

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I am not in favor of a OT section. I am ok with using the O/T in the General section.

 

I belong to other boards ...dogs and horses....and on the horse boards they have a OT section and it gets spams, political, religious, racial etc...and after a while it detracts from the original intent of the boards.

 

At least here is it not a bunch of O/T and somewhat stay revelant to dogs.

 

IMHO

Diane Pagel

[Deacon Dog]

I'm with Kim on this. Either get rid of the off topic stuff or segregate it.

 

For someone primarily interested in working dogs, the signal-to-noise ratio on this board has become increasingly faint over the past several years. A good example is I really enjoy seeing trial and farm photos but no longer look for them in the gallery section because I'm unwilling to wade through the inumerable photo essays of dogs laying around the house, going for a walk, etc.

[Black Watch Debatable]

[nancy]

Luisa, I like that graphic. But where would the "off topic" stuff be?

[Eileen Stein]

Luisa, that is a beautiful and elegant design, and I'm sure you know how much I appreciate your contributing it. I do believe it would help ensure that working dog people could be insulated from what the pet dog people are talking about, and pet people could be insulated from what the working people are talking about. And I KNOW that would make a lot of people on both sides happy, because I've heard it again and again over the years.

 

But that is not my vision for the Boards. I know that what I'm about to say will sound stubborn and arrogant, and I apologize in advance. In fact, I know it's going to turn off if not infuriate people on both sides. But I might as well be up front about it, so here it is.

 

My core beliefs: The border collie is a breed bred to work livestock. That is its essence. To the extent it ceases to be that, it will change. It will cease to be the kind of dog it has been up to now, and that will be a great loss. The integrity of the breed is hurt by the AKC's recognition of the border collie and threatened by its popularity as a pet (in which I include its use for dogsports).

 

Almost none of the people coming new to border collies as pet owners understands this, believes this, or has ever even heard this. They think they know border collies because they know dogs, and border collies are dogs. I want these Boards to be a place where they hear it, and perhaps even come to understand and believe it. That won't happen if the working dog people and the pet dog people are in separate enclaves.

 

It is not a palatable message. At first hearing, it's a total turnoff. It sounds snobbish and elitist, as if these people think they're better than I am and their dogs are better than my dog, and I don't even understand what they're talking about, and I'm not a farmer so why should I care? There are some people who will never give it a fair hearing. But there are some people who will try to understand it if working dog people make the effort to explain it and answer their objections, and and even more so perhaps if they're exposed to working dog people's discussions among themselves on the hows and whys of dogs working livestock. And the more people who come to understand it, especially border collie owners, the better for the breed and even for the wellbeing of their individual dogs.

 

If it can be unpalatable for the pet dog people to hear this, it can likewise be tedious for the working dog people to talk about it again and again, and to read and even partake in discussions that some of them regard as "cutesy poopsy." But why should any pet person be open to the views of anyone who is not willing to engage with them, help them where help is requested, and earn their respect?

 

Pet dog people: I'm glad you're here, and I'm glad you're willing to listen to what I have to say. I understand and share your love for your dogs, and I feel a sense of community with you because we share this breed. I've learned things from many of you, and I appreciate it. I know there are border collie boards you could go to that are "all pet all the time" and you wouldn't have to interact with people whose perspective is different. I appreciate your coming here anyway.

 

Working dog people: I'm glad you're here. I know you could just blow these Boards off as not worth bothering with. If you do, they will die, and I think an opportunity will be lost. I know there is at least one other border collie board that is "stockdogs only" and probably others as well where you wouldn't have to interact with people whose perspective is different. I appreciate your willingness to participate here.

 

There are a number of separate forums here, and nobody has to look into any that they don't choose to. There are subject lines for each thread, and nobody has to click on ones they don't choose to. But I'm not willing to in essence divide this into two separate boards -- I'm trying to broaden communication, not narrow it.

 

If anyone wants to take issue with anything I've said here, please either email me privately or start a separate thread. I'd like this thread to continue on the subject of whether there should be a separate "Off Topic" forum, about which my mind is still open and I still welcome feedback.

[PSmitty]

I hope I'm allowed to respond to your post, Eileen, since I'm not taking exception to it.

 

I agree totally. As a pet dog owner, I have learned soooo much here, and have gained an understanding of border collies that I never had before. I was just telling Laura that yesterday, believe it or not. I hate to think if the working people and pet people were segregated, how much valuable knowledge and experience would be lost to the people who need it the most.

 

I understand Tony's point, even though I'm one of those people who've posted pics of my dogs laying around or playing at the beach. But again, I'd hate to see the working photos not mixed in with the "pet" photos, since again, the pet people *need* to see what border collies were born to do. Make sense? I think most people who post threads of working photos usually identify them pretty well, and those uninterested in Rover playing frisbee can skip right to the working threads. Photos are photos, I think they belong together.

 

All that said, though, I still think the OT or non-dog related stuff belongs in a separate place. For lots of reasons already stated.

 

Thanks for considering it, Eileen.

[Kyrasmom]

Thank you very much for your post Eileen. I am a pet owner, and a show Border Collie pet owner at that, and I know that I probably would never have known the difference if the board had been completely seperated between working dog owners and pet dog owners.

 

Personally, an off topic forum for knitting/recipes/world peace/politics/whatever would be nice, simply because some of those discussions are bound to get heated (especially the knitting ) and a new person coming in looking for help may get the wrong impression and that squabbles is what it's all about.

 

My preference would be to not have a section only for newbies, not everyone enters every forum on the board, at least I know I don't, on a regular basis and a new person looking for help should be able to post in a busy and active section of the board.

 

There's already a working dog section (which is great) so I don't really see the need for further board division when it comes to basic border collie chat.

 

As for the photo gallery ( I believe someone mentioned that as well) if it's so difficult to wade through pet photos, perhaps the working dog section can have its own but it would be a shame to not share photographic evidence of what the BC should be with the rest of us. I personally very rarely visit the working dog section as I don't work my dogs on sheep....and the spirit of the working dog owners is generally present in the normal BC discussion.

 

Again, if a topic isn't of interest, don't click on it. All the cutesy photos of pet dogs on couches don't open on themselves upon entry to the gallery. If I'm not in the mood to respond to a basic newbie question, I don't click on the post, but I'm always glad to see that there are many always ready to help and answer the same questions over and over.

 

My dollars worth.

Maria

[nancy]

Eileen, I completely agree with your post. I liked the design, but I did wonder about "cross-over".

 

I am a pet owner. But I already knew about form's following function. And I knew how stuff like AKC and breeding for the wrong characteristics had seriously changed Labs, German Shepherds, and Cocker Spaniels. I'd been tought on trips to Yorkshire.

 

And I would regularly check the working dog boards, even with a dog who, in her one time with sheep, walked up and greeted them. That was it.

 

But I care about the breed, so I read the working information. But I'm like that. I even subscribe to the - other - working stockdog forum. Heck, I hope to be reincarnated as a 1950s Yorkshire sheepman. And I know how tough that would be.

 

But I can see that ohters would accept the segregation. And it might even lead to the kind of disconnect we are trying to avoid: the idea that there can be border collies bred for work and border collies bred for pets and sports.

[sandra s.]

If it's a choice between having an OT section or p*ssing off more of the working people, then by all means make an OT section.

 

I'm a pet owner (unless you count my pretty new attempts at hobby herding ), but the way "working dog people" interact with their dogs often seems a lot more natural and "sane" to me than what large parts of the pet dog culture have become. I'd hate to lose their advice.

 

BTW, why is the Working Stockdogs section so inactive? I do read the training discussion, but there's not a lot going on there. I'd think that's where the working dog people could go, to discuss the stuff that matters to them without "dilution" by pet folks, and newbies like me could peek around the corner and learn.

[WyoBC]

Well as a BC owner now I know there's so much I have to learn, but there's so much I have learned from both "pet" owners, and "working" owners. Without either of them I wouldn't have known what to do when I got him. I'm thankful for both kinds of owners for helping me wit hany question I have. Newbie or not. I think that's part of what this board is, and why I love it. You can own a BC or just love them and your welcome to come in and talk. I hope with this topic the boards don't get torn apart by different kinds of owners. JMO. I would hate to see that. That being said I am a "pet" owner in a way. No I don't herd (yet) or do other sports, but that doesn't mean that I'm not supposed to, or shouldn't own one either.

 

 

Oh, Smileyzookie I agree. That would be freaking awesome.

[Allie Oop]

Sometimes I wish I had sheep -- but I don't. My dog is a pet and companion, not a working dog. I may never get the opportunity to train or work Allie as BCs were bred to do, but I admire those who do. I have great respect for the Border Collie as a breed and for its heritage. However, as there are many more BCs out there than there are working homes, I will be content to give a worthy dog the best home I can.

 

The best thing about these Boards is that they are a place where people who are interested in the Border Collie as a breed can share and gain information. I'm not offended by the view that Eileen put forth in her post and I can certainly understand the working dog folks who hate to wade through posts that seem frivolous or off topic. However, I think that there is room here for both groups. Thanks to all who patiently share their expertise and knowledge - please don't segregate us.

 

I think that the "Border Collie Companion" section does not get utilized much because the working dog folks do not usually view these posts and their experience is very valuable. This area would probably be better utilized as an O/T area. Although I don't usually have time to view many O/T posts, I do sometimes enjoy checking them out, sometimes even post one and I don't think they should be eliminated.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[ShoresDog]

Eileen's eloquent explanation of her philosophy for the board explains why I like it so much! Thanks, Eileen.

 

I suggest that all posters, especially in the Photo Gallery section, make a good effort to give their threads descriptive titles that clearly explain what the subject will be. Let's make it easy for busy people to wade through. I am sympathetic to the longtime member who would like to see more working farm pictures, and to all busy members.

[Anda]

O/T request( )

 

Would it be possible to increase the resolution of the avatars, as other boards allow a better display of the pictures? It might not be faisable, but if possible, could someone please look into this?

 

Chat room would be super, but it would make it hard or rather impossible to monitor it for the administrator.

[Sue R]

BTW, why is the Working Stockdogs section so inactive? I do read the training discussion, but there's not a lot going on there. I'd think that's where the working dog people could go, to discuss the stuff that matters to them without "dilution" by pet folks, and newbies like me could peek around the corner and learn.

That's a good question and maybe a bit off-topic for this thread, but I'll risk a guess.

 

I think it's very dicey to get good stockdog training advice over the internet from folks who can't see your dog working or see the problem in the work, so people rarely ask in this venue. If they have problems, I think they'd sooner talk to their trainer or other handlers who are familiar with their dog, etc., and do it privately. But, it's great to have this option for those who want to use it, and I'd hate to see it lost. Some really helpful discussions have been posted.

 

Many posts to the training section under Working Stockdogs are from new folks who want to learn. Experienced handlers may rarely begin a post there but often are willing to share ideas with the new folks, which is great.

 

As for O/T, I just don't open what doesn't interest me but I do think the boards lose something when they become overwhelmed by irrelevent topics. I like Julie's "Coffee Break" idea if folks really want to discuss these O/T issues with friends on the boards.

 

One thing that I believe would help almost all sections of the boards would be good, descriptive titles for threads. That would allow those perusing each section to easily determine if a topic is of interest to them and, for someone like me with slow dial-up, save time in locating topics I'm interested in or able to contribute to.

 

I used to open many threads to see what they were about but now, if the title doesn't interest me, I don't waste my time. Being specific, particularly when someone is asking for help, would be very beneficial to all who either have the same or a similar problem, or who might be able to advise.

 

An example might be something like "Sheepdog Clinic Photos" versus just "Clinic Photos" (which could be from an agility, obedience, or any other clinic) to let folks know what a gallery thread is all about, as an example.

 

JMO

[juliepoudrier]

I don't see any reason to separate the boards into working vs. pet sections any more than it already is. I just take issue with the increasing number of OT posts and would like to see them have a section of their own. And then I'd like everyone to pledge to use that section for the OT stuff.

 

I heartily second everyone else's requests for more descriptive subject lines. Subjects like "Help!" or "Did you know?" or "A question for you old timers" could mean a whole lot of things and when I'm busy I often just skip over those, and that means I may not be contributing to threads where I *could* contribute.

 

Oh, and Sue's pretty much right about the training discussion. When I have a training issue, I usually discuss it with another handler I know and who knows me and my dog(s) rather than post to a forum. But that shouldn't stop new folks from asking questions, as I think all the working dog folk here are more than happy to offer help when they can.

 

J.

[Nik]

I like the idea of an O/T section myself. The reason is mainly because this is the only board on the internet that I go to on a regular basis, and it's nice to get to know all of you great people "outside" of BC's also. We all have a common interest here already, and many have become extremely close friends outside of the boards also. It would just be nice to have a section where we can discuss other things w/o cluttering up the general board for those who don't really want to have to weed through the O/T's. I agree w/ Eileen about NOT segregating the boards. Too many people would miss out on too much valuable information from both sides.

 

I say at least give the O/T section a try and if it doesn't seem to be working out then it can always be taken off, right?!?!

[nancy]

I guess I didn't understand the distinction between the General and Companion sections. That's why I put my OTs under General. I thought Companion was for those of us who have posts about dogs that are companions rather than co-workers. I thought that whole other area was for those with stock-working dogs.

 

Sorry.

[Meg's mum]

The question on this thread as I understand it has to do with the 'dilution' of the general discussion forum by a proliferation of O/T posts. There have been roughly 120 O/T posts to the General Discussion in the past year. That is roughly 1 post every three days. Ten percent of those approx. 120 O/T posts have happened in the past week.

 

Perhaps all we need to do is suggest a bit of restraint to our collective self-indulgence. If we wanna chat with each other we can either use Microsoft Messenger, which has collective chat features in an ad hoc fashion, or throw up an IRC channel. But that is a separate topic in of itself.

[Shetlander]

Is anyone else having trouble getting page 2 of this thread to open? My computer keeps going into a sort of autistic mode this morning when I try to open it and can not seem to completely load that page.

 

ETA Never mind. Now page 3 is gone and page 2 works fine. Weird.

[nancy]

Heidi, I may have earned my living in the computer business, but I'm not up to your suggestions. I have no idea what and IRC channel is our how I would toss one where. And I don't do "messaging". I rather like the idea of posts that can be read when someone has time and answered at leisure.

 

I feel like we have become a group of friends. So we do use OT to talk.

 

I'd hate to have lost the recent discussion of depression. It takes a lot to bring up that subject, and a lot of trust. I would not give my experiences in some chat room.

 

I rather like coming across an OT to which I can contribute while scanning for actual border collie information.

 

I belong to a number of Lithuanian Yahoo groups. But I hardly go there because they are so segregated by topic.

[Eileen Stein]

This thread is not about whether people have a right to judge what others do with their dogs, or whether working dog people should offer more training help to newbies. Kelpiegirl, for that reason I have removed your posts and the responses to them. Please keep to the topic.

 

Liz, your post showed up on page 2 fine. Hope you can read this one.

[Catu]

Independant if we end having a O/T section or just labeled O/T post:

 

I've often open threads to topics related to dogs, but not to BCs, they are O/T or not? Until now, I've marked them as O/T, but I feel that most of those topic can be applyed to Borders too.

[KrisK]

If there is a section that is truly O/T where questions about horses, kennel design, etc.(all questions I have posted, btw) AND leave the rest of the board the way it is now, I think we could all 'get' what we're looking for.

I absolutely agree that the title description is very important! "Help" can certainly mean a lot of things!

As for "other dog" posting, I think I usually post O/T with my question (often it's a health issue).

Eileen, I think your post was excellent. As a companion dog owner (but wannabe working dog owner), I didn't find any of what you had written offensive. It was clear, and concise and written with a lot of thought.