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Ooky
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Ok, you guys, I am HOOKED. Seriously seriously. I handled Odin for the first time today and after I got even 1/10 of 1% of the hang of one small part of it, it was literally like driving a Corvette. :D

 

Today we had 3 nice little helpful sheep in a small round pen. We have not put names on flanks yet but using body language and the pole I had both flanks happening reliably. Actually, he already had them, so there was a bit of adjustment at first where I just confused the heck out of him. But by the end he was anticipating my movements. I have a good down (most of the times on the 1st command, bringing the pole horizontal really gets his attention), and at the end of the 3rd run we started putting a walk up on him. But it turns out he already KNOWS that command. What the heck???? I just had to say, Odin, walk up, and he got up and came walking up, nice and in control. Of course I am a dolt and let him walk the sheep past me every time - note to self, stop doing that. But how does that instacommand happen?? I guess body language?

 

Ok, those aren't my questions, although feel free to comment on the "genetic herding command cannon" which apparently may also include "stop!" and "that'll do" (GHCC, I think classes on it should be offered in the online school :rolleyes: ). Here are my questions:

 

1. When I finally figured out what to do with my clumsy self enough to ask for a flank in any sort of a situation where it made sense, we discovered that he does not like to go counter-clockwise as much as he does clockwise. Maybe this has something to do with the OCD in his right shoulder (the flanks he likes puts the "bad" shoulder on the inside)? In any case, I know for a fact he can run any which way he wants so I had my first training challenge, how to force him to take that flank. If I got "tough" and banged on the ground emphatically, I could sometimes get him to switch and take that flank (I guess that would be away side?), but then he would come in close and split the one black-bellied barbados away from the other two dorset sheep. Then, it would devolve into some fast action until I could get my head back enough to lie him down.

 

So the trainer was yelling at me to "come at him" when he came around too close on that flank. I tried a few times and she yelled "Too LA-ate!!" each time. Then, I got it in my head to lunge at him sort of pre-emptively, and after that he went around just great! I was still conscious he liked the clockwise side better, but no problems getting him to take either side anymore and the splitting off stopped. I would sometimes encourage him a bit like "be sure and get everyone, now" feeling totally ridiculous, but he would swing out a bit wide, and, well, be sure to get everyone. So my question is, how does the correction I gave have any bearing on him changing his behavior on both willingness to take that flank and taking it correctly? My trainer knew he would respond if I could get it right, and it obviously made sense to Odin. I'm the only one left wondering how the two actions even relate, because "coming at him" wasn't anything like him circling behind the sheep (his immediate reaction was to take off way back and circle again to a comfy clockwise flank), and it happened in my mind out-of-context from the moment that comes later, after the turn of the flank, where he would split one off. Any thoughts? Sorry I am so clueless.

 

2. Are there different types of eye? If so, might you describe some of the different types? He has not had much eye yet (very upright and loose, looks like a little sphinx in his downs rather than the normal border collie "crouch"). But today, I swear I noticed that the way he looked at the sheep had great effect on them, even if he wasn't crouching. I noticed this on some sheep across a field from us while we were just out getting water. I had to take him away from the water dish, where he wanted to stare at those sheep and not drink, because it was making them stop and they weren't paying attention to the dog that was working them. Could this be a form of eye? Also, in the walk-up he was staring very, very intently, although still not crouching.

 

Thanks in advance for any insight! Wish I had pics or video but I was way way too busy trying to pull my thumb out of my nether regions and keep up with a keen 16 month old. :D

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Ok, you guys, I am HOOKED. Seriously seriously. I handled Odin for the first time today and after I got even 1/10 of 1% of the hang of one small part of it, it was literally like driving a Corvette. :D >>

 

Congrats- it is kinda like that. If by driving a Corvette you mean one that might sometimes run you over :rolleyes::D

 

I'm not an expert- but you have great questions that I think you should also put up in the Ask an Expert section, but since it's here, I'll have at them .

 

<<and at the end of the 3rd run we started putting a walk up on him. But it turns out he already KNOWS that command. What the heck???? I just had to say, Odin, walk up, and he got up and came walking up, nice and in control. Of course I am a dolt and let him walk the sheep past me every time - note to self, stop doing that. But how does that instacommand happen?? I guess body language?>>

 

I've never met any dog that didn't take a walk up the first time they are asked for it. It might not resemble the end product (i.e slower and straight), but the command itself is usually motion-motivating, "upbeat" as opposed to down which has a more negative tone to the dog's ears. As far as walking past you- don't worry about it- turn it into a few steps of a drive- it sounds like your dog already has some pace so don't get too worked up if he moves sheep past you as long as he's listening to you.

 

 

<<1. When I finally figured out what to do with my clumsy self enough to ask for a flank in any sort of a situation where it made sense, we discovered that he does not like to go counter-clockwise as much as he does clockwise. Maybe this has something to do with the OCD in his right shoulder (the flanks he likes puts the "bad" shoulder on the inside)? In any case, I know for a fact he can run any which way he wants so I had my first training challenge, how to force him to take that flank. If I got "tough" and banged on the ground emphatically, I could sometimes get him to switch and take that flank (I guess that would be away side?), but then he would come in close and split the one black-bellied barbados away from the other two dorset sheep. Then, it would devolve into some fast action until I could get my head back enough to lie him down. >>

 

Just keep at it- most dogs are one sided or another, with or without a medical issue. Work on that flank when he's fresh and try to set up more situations where it makes sense to him to go that direction. Don't get too "tough" , you could sour him on that side. And most dogs do exactly what you describe because by forcing them to switch, you've changed your position so that he feels that he's not in control anymore. Just take what he gives you on that side for a while, if you have to work on half flanks instead of full, accept that and reward him by letting him have his sheep. If you do force him to switch, you have to be quick to be back "where he lands" on balance to prevent the splitting.

 

 

 

<<2. Are there different types of eye? If so, might you describe some of the different types? He has not had much eye yet (very upright and loose, looks like a little sphinx in his downs rather than the normal border collie "crouch"). But today, I swear I noticed that the way he looked at the sheep had great effect on them, even if he wasn't crouching. I noticed this on some sheep across a field from us while we were just out getting water. I had to take him away from the water dish, where he wanted to stare at those sheep and not drink, because it was making them stop and they weren't paying attention to the dog that was working them. Could this be a form of eye? Also, in the walk-up he was staring very, very intently, although still not crouching.>>

 

Eye develops more as they get older and have more experience. Very useful dogs range from loose to strong eyed- they just take a little different handling. Having a looser eyed dog puts you at a little more of a disadvantage as a beginner- a dog with eye is more likely to feel the right place to be on their own, while a looser eyed dog needs the handler to have good timing. If there is a trained dog you can practice with AND any livestock handling experience you can acquire, without the dog, will make up for this.

 

Eye and presence are very different things- the youngster I have know is the lower end of medium eye- that means she will flank very freely, will sometimes overun the balance point, but will come in and hold pressure. She doesn't have alot of eye but sheep seem to respect her, probably because she is a very confident tyke and not afraid of coming in to the bubble. My first good dog- who was perfect for a beginner- had very strong eye but she often could not shift sheep without gripping- the eye would draw sheep into a fight and she didn't like to grip sheep (she loved getting after a cow though!). The sheep would pick up on her hesitation and especially if I let her get too close, she would "stick".

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1. I'm not sure I quite understand your first question. Many dogs start out "one sided." His response when you gof the correction right was because, well, you got the correction right. If you were too late with your timing to begin with and your "pre-emptive strike" worked, then I'd say you got the timing right and you got the correction in when he was just thinking about slicing, rather than waiting until he was actually in the act of slicing (which would be when your trainer was yelling "Too late!").

 

2. There are different degrees of eye and it sounds like Odin may be more upright and with less eye. Of course, you can bring out more eye in a dog, just as you can work to reduce the effect of a strong-eyed dog (that is you can "break" a dog's eye to some extent). As for the water dish story, it's possible that the sheep simply sensed Odin's presence (how great a distance are you talking about?) and stopped to assess the situation (Is that dog going to come after us?). Sheep are very good at reading a dog's intent as well. Even loose-eyed dogs still use eye to control sheep.

 

J.

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Thanks for the responses!

 

Julie - I'm afraid my question about the correction is even more basic than that - it just seemed like what I wanted was pretty complex, and when I ran at him, I don't know how that translates in his head to "take that flank when she tells me and take it right". Because I only had to get the timing right *once* and then he understood, but running at him was nothing like my actions that are actually supposed to signal the flank, which are shift of weight and tapping the ground with the pole in the direction I wanted to go. But doing this (to me) seemingly unrelated act of running at him fixed it! I asked my trainer too and she had no idea what I was asking either. I think it's possible I'm just so clueless this question makes no sense. The two things are clearly related, I guess I just have to figure out how!

 

Part of what's so cool about this though is that Odin knew what "right" was - unlike trick training or whatever there is no need for me to explain the basic idea/objective as he clearly gets it way better than I do!

 

As for the water dish story, the sheep were about 75 ft away, I guess? Maybe more. But they were being "herded" by a corgi at the time, so that's something. Possibly it had nothing to do with eye and it's just a bc, even on the other side of a fence, is more concerning to them than a corgi on the same side? :rolleyes: Sorry, that was unnecessarily mean to corgis. The little guy was trying his best.

 

Very interesting reading what you both have to say about eye, and eye vs. presence.

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Thanks for the responses!

 

Julie - I'm afraid my question about the correction is even more basic than that - it just seemed like what I wanted was pretty complex, and when I ran at him, I don't know how that translates in his head to "take that flank when she tells me and take it right". Because I only had to get the timing right *once* and then he understood, but running at him was nothing like my actions that are actually supposed to signal the flank, which are shift of weight and tapping the ground with the pole in the direction I wanted to go. But doing this (to me) seemingly unrelated act of running at him fixed it! I asked my trainer too and she had no idea what I was asking either. I think it's possible I'm just so clueless this question makes no sense. The two things are clearly related, I guess I just have to figure out how!

 

 

What I believe you are experiencing here is an example of what Jack Knox calls "Correct the wrong and let right happen." After going to a Jack Knox clinic and hearing this repeatedly it still took a while for it to make sense to me but it seems right.

 

Your running at him while he was doing wrong was the correction which told him slicing was wrong and he should try something else. His natural instincts took over and his next choice was right and you stopped running at him thereby releasing the pressure and rewarding him. Pressure on (correction) for wrong behavior and pressure off (reward) when he does it right. It's the fact that the release of pressure is a reward that is the concept we humans sometimes have trouble grasping (I know I did). The learning what is right comes when the pressure is released. Remember a "correction" is supposed to "correct" what is wrong. And - as my current trainer (herself a big hat) says repeatedly - "Stop correcting when he does it right"

 

Anyway I'm just a newbie passing along what I have been told by several top trainers - including the catchy phrase from Jack Knox. My best advice is since you are obviously working with a trainer - listen to your trainer and do what your trainer tells you. While it is nice to understand why something works at this point at least it is more important that it works. And your timing will get better. But YOUR trainer who observes you and your dog interacting with each other and with the livestock is in far better position to offer help than any of us (and Jamie and Julie both had good insights BTW).

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Ooky,

 

Was that you in Santa Rosa? If so we arrived just as you finished up........we had all the half grown puppies out on leash? Mine was the "unrelated" one. :rolleyes:

 

It just sounds too coincidental once you mentioned the corgi in the other working area........

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Yes, that was us! Good to see you here too! :rolleyes: Your pup is adorable.

 

Thanks for the great explanation, MagRam. I have read that quote or a version of it many times, but I don't think I really understood what it meant. I think I still need to experience it some more.

 

It's pretty magical, what they just "know" out there.

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Yes, that was us! Good to see you here too! :rolleyes: Your pup is adorable.

 

Thanks for the great explanation, MagRam. I have read that quote or a version of it many times, but I don't think I really understood what it meant. I think I still need to experience it some more.

 

It's pretty magical, what they just "know" out there.

 

Thanks on the pup comment!

 

Sorry I missed your session. Next time you are going to be there, let me know. If I am free maybe I can snap some pics. I don't go there often but only live a few miles away.

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Very interesting reading what you both have to say about eye, and eye vs. presence.

I agree. I know Jake has some eye because I've seen him use it on JJ but he has yet to use it on the sheep in the round pen. Because the sheep will move just because Jake is behind them made me think his presence was what was moving them and he didn't need to use any eye. (Will a dog do that???) I'm very curious to see how he reacts the first time he comes across a stubborn sheep.

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Hello all,

 

'I just had to say, Odin, walk up'

 

Just a suggestion, but I ask people not to say their dog's name before a command, as it pulls the dog's attention away from the stock. Not such a big deal in the beginning, but it's a bad habit to get into and hard to break. Just give the command, so instead of the dog having to disconnect, wait for you, then take the command, he can just take the command. More efficient, more fluid, better.

 

"genetic herding command cannon"

 

Border collies have been selectively bred for hundreds of years for specific abilities on livestock. What you see in your dog is the resulting success. Your dog should have natural balance, the desire to flank. He should be keen with the desire to walk up on his own. You are seeing the precise reason it is so important to breed border collie dogs for work and nothing else. Now that you have experienced the benefits for yourself, imagine if your dog had ignored the stock and walked around utterly disinterested, sniffing the ground, like the one that was brought to me the other day. Spread the word that when you breed for anything except exceptional working ability, you lose it. It can happen in as few as 2 generations.

 

Regarding the correction, "running at him." He had the instinct to flank and go to balance. The pressure of your body movement didn't tell him to stop or go, it told him to find another route. Your dog can't wait to get to balance. You allow him to with a flank, then use your body position to shape the direction of travel.

 

There are all types of eye, good and bad. The Corgi-sheep were probably just reacting to the presence of another nearby threat, but loose-eyed, even upright dogs can be effective. It's possible that with experience and maturity your dog could develop style, what you call "the border collie crouch."

 

A word of caution. In your post you mention "running at your dog" and "the pole." In our interest to get it right in the beginning we can overcompensate by being too harsh, and chill an otherwise enthusiastic dog. We all had poor timing at first and that coupled with what the dog may consider as being picked on can make him sour. Let up on him a little while you and he figure it out. It can't be perfect at first because neither of you know perfection. As long as he's not trying to hurt the sheep, don't be afraid to make mistakes, let him be messy and both of you have some fun.

 

Cheers all,

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Hey, WTG! I handled Blaze for the first time Saturday, too. It was awesome! :rolleyes:

 

Sweet! It'll be fun to keep hearing about each others' starting mistakes and successes - and Brenda and dracina too.:D

 

Amelia, thanks for your insightful comments. I had not considered the name thing but it makes sense. And now I'm beginning to understand that what you all are telling me is that my amazement at his insta-walk up is the same thing behind why that correction worked so magically. I have been happily toeing the party line here about bred-in behaviors but I didn't even understand what you all meant - these fully formed complex abilities and even commands! The word sounds must make some difference rather than any random sound you could choose, but probably the most important part is that they were bred to recognize the human intent behind those commands. I never realized specialized artificial selection was quite that powerful before - it is a whole new way of looking at it.

 

Anyway, I also understand what you mean, and many others have said this too, about being careful not to sour a young dog by insisting on too much at first. I would hate to have him lose any little part of what I've seen so far. He wanted completely to work with me and as soon as I made sense, and we hammered out the trouble with the away flank, we were zooming all over that pen wherever we wanted to go like we shared a brain. I'd hate more than anything to stress him until we lost that feeling - that was exactly what I was going for in the first place and he gave it to me on our first try together. And it's just a plain fact that his timing is way better and he does know better than I do what's going on.

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