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Why, Why, WHY? do Big Hats sell pups to these people?


Lenajo
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Is there really not enough demand from qualified work/trialling/sport/pet homes that one would need to take an "all money is good money" approach here?

 

I think, in the absence of the cumulative diluting effects of PMs and BYBs, this would not be as big of an issue. I guess it's just so maddening because it seems like these people should know better.

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  • 3 months later...

I see very valid points in this post and have been battling people's opinions about the pup I just bought. She is a wonderful pup, I watched the parents work sheep, I played with the parents, and each pup over the time of a few weeks before I decided on one. The breeders and I still talk and have play dates with my little girl and their dogs. They guaranteed me that if she has any health problems within 3 years they will take care of any vet expenses along with another pup if I so choose. She is ABCA registered, healthy, smart and perfect for what I wanted.

 

Now sounds great right? and I think it is, but I met a gal at a local pet store (was scoping out competition, since I work for a competitor, hehe) and had Rose with me. One of the workers who has a border collie rescue was petting her and asking where I got her. I told her a breeder from (my small hometown) and she says "Oh.. They're a regular little puppy mill." And I look confused. "Excuse me?"

She goes on to tell me they "Tried, but can't make it in the herding world" and that they "Breed dogs that shouldn't be bred." Now I saw their property, their dogs, their sheep, cows. ect. Everything looked great, healthy, well cared for, I saw no signs of puppy mill, they didn't have a lot of dogs, and the ones they had were well taken care of. A good friend of mine who trains dogs also, told me she is probably just upset that I bought one from them instead of getting one of her rescue dogs, and that a lot of people are hard on people who do herding, and if your not in the top, they snub you.

 

I felt a little better after talking to her, I love my puppy and I watched the breeders turn down people they didn't see as a fit match for the pups, so I didn't understand why they were being dissed. Their dogs slept in the house, they were not 'big name' people, but they were sincere about finding the best homes for their puppies. They had many pictures of past pups in new happy homes as well.

 

I chose to get one from them and not a few other breeders that are close, who's pups are $1300-2500, because of a few reasons, for one, the expensive pups were AKC and ABCA, they were pretty, but looked to have very little herding drive. Also, a gal asked "Why do they charge that much?" I had no idea how to answer.. "Because they can." Crazy! Not gonna drop names (but I will if you really wanna know. haha not slandering anyone, just weren't the right pups for me.) but there are 3 breeders close to my area that charge SO much for puppies, and for some reason I imagine yuppies buying them thinking they'll look classy in their backyards... doing nothing. Ugh.

 

Anyway! I totally agree with you!

 

 

 

Patrick took over sheep watching so I'm back.

 

I do what I can by being honest to people who come to me looking for breeders. One of the most important thing I tell newbies to look for is someone who considers a puppy sale, a mentoring relationship. I don't know whether that makes sense. I know breeders who do sell many litters a year, but will back up every puppy and is happy to keep up contact for the lifetime of the dog.

 

It's a troublesome question, because there are certainly breeders who will sell a pup to anyone, just about. But not all of these are hands off if the buyer takes the trouble to keep up a relationship, themselves. It's tricky. Where's the line? And what exact action should be taken by us, other than raging against the wind? :D

 

As to buying pups from these people ourselves. I follow my own advice - I consider a pup a buy-in to a total philosophy - I have already considered type of farm, training style and methods, and followed relatives or most likely, the parents themselves, from early training to maturity. That way, I have a context for future questions that I'll be pestering the breeder/trainer with. :rolleyes:

 

So I'd be unlikely to want a pup from a "Here's the pup, where's my cash" person, no matter how big their hat is. And really, I just realized that I have NEVER felt that trial success was of any importance - notice it's absence from the list of considerations above. Given a choice from a litter bred by a multi-national winner, or international winner, or someone local who shows competance at training and handling but whose name doesn't necessarily come up in a discussion of "top contenders" - I'd still look first at handling/training style and what they raise on their farm and how they handle their stock.

 

I'd tell a pet buyer to look for someone who raises pups in the home and has at least some of their dogs in the house with them. Or else someone who has a very long track record of successful pet placements. I can make an excellent pet of a dog born in a barn, from total farm dog parents - but a novice owner might be more disappointed in the results if they didn't make more of an effort to find a breeder with a dog raising philosphy similar to their own.

 

Like you say, it's fine to get pups from good breeders who frankly consider their dogs to be "stock" - but it's a bit more iffy to send a novice buyer to that sort of person.

 

Finally, good breeders realize that stupid placements will eventually come back to bite them. Gone are the days when the only thing you knew about a handler/breeder, were the trial results and an occaisional Working Border Collie article or profile.

 

I do think we are too reluctant to name names. If someone badmouths a breeder without good reason, there will be many people able to counter this. Similarly, if your pup is doing well, I don't see why we have to veil the source. It's not name dropping - but for some reason the working Border Collie (sheepdog) culture is oddly reticient about names. I lurk on cattle forums, and of course the kennel club type communities, and it's all about, "Thanks to So and So for the great pup!"

 

I'm feeling a bit like maybe I'm orbiting Debbie's Planet, or possibly that other place that TC lives - I'm not sure what I'm saying here. And I used up way more than three inches to do it. Low blood sugar - I haven't eaten lunch yet. :D

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I've said this before, but I'll say it again, and I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but to me anyone who puts lots of puppies on the ground each year is a mill. Someone who breeds a bitch on every, or nearly every, heat is a mill. The dogs can be quite well taken care of, but if the breeder is pumping out multiple litters year after year, then they are a mill in my mind. Just because we have an image of dogs stacked in cramped cages, with urine and feces raining down from above and puppies and dogs in poor health and horrid conditions doesn't mean that someone who doesn't keep dogs in those sorts of conditions *isn't* a mill.

 

It's entirely possible that the rescue person has the same (or similar) definition of a mill as I do. It's also possible that the rescue person has placed pups produced by these folks and so has an opinion based on experience. And remember that many people get border collie pups and then decide they can't really handle them about the time they reach adolescence and so dump them in shelters, where they are picked up by rescues (and the breeder is never contacted by the original owner).

 

I once told a friend that she had gotten her dog from what I considered a mill, and she was as offended as you are. As she gained more experience in the working dog world, she came to understand my point of view--and that I hadn't said what I said out of elitism, jealousy, competitiveness (I've bred all of one litter in nine years), or even just plain ugliness. That friend came to know that I was speaking from the heart, with the best interests of the dogs in mind and nothing more. So don't be so quick to judge why people made the comments they did to you.

 

It is entirely possible that they aren't a mill, but it does sound rather like they are a backyard breeder. Owning livestock, letting the dogs live in the house, and screening potential buyers doesn't necessarily make then good breeders of working dogs, FWIW. Oh, and I agree that paying more than a $thousand for a pup is ludicrous, but then it's not difficult to find well-bred working pups for much less than that.

 

J.

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Oh I entirely agree with you. The people I got my pup from I have kept in contact with and so far they don't have anymore litters planned or anything, so I have not seen sure fire signs that they breed on every heat cycle or things to that nature, *so far* anyway, I've only known them for about 9 weeks now, so not to say they don't. I hope they are not, but if they ARE, what do I do? Not recommend people to them? I really hate that there's nothing stopping people from just breeding, and breeding and breeding poor dogs that have no choice.

 

<rant>

-on a personal note-

My old 4-H leader had 13 German shepherds when I met her, that was.. 10 years ago, at least half of those dogs should be alive today, but none are. They all one by one slowly starved to death. I had even called the sheriff before, she convinced them they were "kennel' dogs and were supposed to be that thin, they believed her and let it go!! So more dogs died. They killed each other out of hunger, hung themselves on choke collars and so on. It breaks my heart that I couldn't have saved any of them. What can people do to help stop backyard breeding? Not that good dogs can't come from it, but honestly shouldn't. Just because you are a reputable littler you shouldn't charge thousands for a pup. that's why some people turn to backyard I think, same breed, lesser price.

 

I work in a grooming salon and as a dog trainer, and the thing in the grooming salon I see a lot of that makes me sooo angry, is the $850+ GOLDENDOODLES and LABRADOODLES and these people strut around like they're purebred!! If you want a lab, get a lab, if you want a poodle, get a poodle, why do you have to cross them?! They are "Designer" breeds and some sell for far more than purebreds! They have nothing to judge them against, they have no standard of perfection! Ugh, its infuriating, its not a 'new breed' its more mixed breeds to fill the shelters.

 

*sorry about the rant* And why does every other person I meet for training own an unsocial 9month old Pitt bull or Pitt cross... why can't people gets labs, or something less likely to massively injure someone?

</rant>

 

Anyway, I'm sure they've probably had some pups from them come through the rescue, I asked her if she had and she beat around the bush. "I don't know that they came from there for sure." I always recommend people that are getting rid of their BC to contact a rescue first so they can at least properly place the dog to a hopeful permanent home.

 

 

I've said this before, but I'll say it again, and I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but to me anyone who puts lots of puppies on the ground each year is a mill. Someone who breeds a bitch on every, or nearly every, heat is a mill. The dogs can be quite well taken care of, but if the breeder is pumping out multiple litters year after year, then they are a mill in my mind. Just because we have an image of dogs stacked in cramped cages, with urine and feces raining down from above and puppies and dogs in poor health and horrid conditions doesn't mean that someone who doesn't keep dogs in those sorts of conditions *isn't* a mill.

 

It's entirely possible that the rescue person has the same (or similar) definition of a mill as I do. It's also possible that the rescue person has placed pups produced by these folks and so has an opinion based on experience. And remember that many people get border collie pups and then decide they can't really handle them about the time they reach adolescence and so dump them in shelters, where they are picked up by rescues (and the breeder is never contacted by the original owner).

 

I once told a friend that she had gotten her dog from what I considered a mill, and she was as offended as you are. As she gained more experience in the working dog world, she came to understand my point of view--and that I hadn't said what I said out of elitism, jealousy, competitiveness (I've bred all of one litter in nine years), or even just plain ugliness. That friend came to know that I was speaking from the heart, with the best interests of the dogs in mind and nothing more. So don't be so quick to judge why people made the comments they did to you.

 

It is entirely possible that they aren't a mill, but it does sound rather like they are a backyard breeder. Owning livestock, letting the dogs live in the house, and screening potential buyers doesn't necessarily make then good breeders of working dogs, FWIW. Oh, and I agree that paying more than a $thousand for a pup is ludicrous, but then it's not difficult to find well-bred working pups for much less than that.

 

J.

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