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Why, Why, WHY? do Big Hats sell pups to these people?


Lenajo
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I'll not pull punches on this one. I'm SICK of it. I'm sick of dealing with unprepared, uncaring, un-suited to owning a frisky chihuahua mix, pet owners who get sold Border Collie pups out of top herding lines by Big Hat trialers/trainers/breeders.

 

Is it just about money? Does these guys (gals) not give a flying cr*p about what happens to these pups?

 

Do they think breeding is going to supercede unprepared owners who have neither the skills, nor the time, to deal with a smart, active puppy? much less a smart active adult dog....

 

We know were puppy mills come from, where backyard breeders are going with this, so what's up with those breeders that should know better?

 

It's not like these guys/gals don't have homes for their pups that will work them. And even if they have surplus to that there are sport homes slobbering for a well bred working dog, even on that spay/neuter contract. And *good* pet homes, again willing to spay/neuter - who want the dog that pup will become, who will give it time, energy, *training* and love it for life.

 

If you want to point a finger at who's ruining this breed by dilution into poor, non-working breeding programs, we need to look hard and long at the Big Hats who sell our best genetics to anybody with the cash. Those are the dogs that go on to grandparent the sport lines, mill lines, and even straighten up the <insert your fault of conformation here> the show lines as a little dash of outcross.

 

Have a look online if you don't believe me.

 

What is it going to take to stop it? Or is it stoppable at all?

 

Or as usual, are these guys/gals going to continue to get the golden pass because they win trials and produce more?

 

Bah! and Humbug.

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I shouldn't bite on this one but will, what would be worse, for a buyer to struggle and have a tough time with a well bred one or not sell them one and have the buyer that wants a border collie purchase from a mill, sport breeder or byb? Either way they are going to learn how to train, atleast with a well bred one if they get through it, they still have a well bred dog, with the lesser bred, it don't matter it's still just a dog with papers saying it might work.

 

May as well put a well bred one out there, atleast if they think it is the worlds best, end up breeding it the offspring will be less diluted (working bredy wise) then if they ended up with a dilute and further dilute it.

 

It don't matter how well bred the dog is, or who it comes from, if you mess it up you mess it up. So they give up and rehome it with it's blue blood papers, that next person breeds it. Better to have pups from it then a lesser bred one.

 

In regards to the dog that I think is triggering this rant, if I remember correctly the big hat culled it from his program due to it's color, alot of white. I guess he could kill it instead of offering it to a pet home, since he does not have enough faith in it to train it himself or to represent it to a working/trial home.

 

Personally, I'm glad that a big hat sold us a border collie, we were not prepared for one, did not understand how to train it, but he stated straight away that sending his dog into our area would improve the breed in our area. It didn't matter if we never got anything done with him, if we bred him to pet border collies or if we got him proven and were able to breed him to better females, it sounded like it was his opinion that he was offering an upgrade and doing his part to improve and preserve the breed. Supply people who are willing to purchase a border collie the chance to purchase a working bred dog that was of different lines then in their area and quite possibly better then they could have found in their area.

 

There already is the belief with some border collie sport/pet people that the big hats and other working dogs breeders will not sell them a dog. When I was up at a clinic in MN the other participants, all AKC people were dumbfounded as to the level of work I was getting out of Jake compared to their dogs, then they could not believe that we could just go and buy one, let alone only for $500 already exposed to stock as opposed to what they spent. They were told that they would not be suitable owners, no stock, not USBCHA trialers, so they just go and keep buying within the sport community, trying to work with substandard working wise dogs trying to test instincts, because in many cases that's as far as the dogs can go. Sell these people dogs, dangnit!!! Or scream from the mountains that they can get one, most don't want to breed they just want to have fun with their dogs and get off on seeing what the dog can do. Keep renewing the sport/pet community with first generation well bred working dogs and they will have no need to breed their second and third generation dilutes, or atleast less of a reason.

 

Flame away, don't really care!!

 

Deb

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In regards to the dog that I think is triggering this rant, if I remember correctly the big hat culled it from his program due to it's color, alot of white. I guess he could kill it instead of offering it to a pet home, since he does not have enough faith in it to train it himself or to represent it to a working/trial home.

 

I'm still thinking about this whole issue and don't want to comment much right now, but the above quote...Seriously, the color is what made a "big hat" cull it from his program?

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I think it's dificult to judge who's "worthy" and who's not. You know what I mean maybe more than anyone here, when I say I certainly can't claim, with my years of experience and good intentions, that I feel awesome about every single foster dog I've ever placed. :rolleyes:

 

You are right that there are plenty of working breeders who don't take anymore care with where their pups go, than the "free to good home" dudes I see in the Walmart parking lot.

 

But I don't see that we can change that. What would you suggest? Bad mouthing them every time their names come up? Refusing to go to a trial where they are competing?

 

I'm not being snotty - I'm kind of in a huge hurry and I apologize if my post is not very diplomatic.

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Flame away, don't really care!!

 

So why answer then? Or is it like the breeding program you describe. The "at least it's better than the mill" one? Yippee. That'll help the breed out. I think that's why its so easy to find a decent working dog in the Aussie genepool now. Not!

 

I suppose you would think that someone here is triggering it, but I hate to tell you that I actually see more Border Collies with problems in person than online.

 

I made it pretty da*n clear that I don't have a problem with pups being sold to any home that has the means and time to create a non-breeding sport dog and/or pet. People can be ignorant, that's not crime as long as they have the willingness to learn and make it work.

 

Not all homes have that. There are some near absolute failure set ups - no time, no interest, no effort type homes - that are quite easy to spot. Why would selling one of those people a good pup just so they don't get a mill one be a solution?

 

How about saying "NO"? Is the fact that somebody else might get their money a justifcation for selling one of your dogs down the road?

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Good questions Rebecca, even in a hurry.

 

Who's "worthy" ? well the first part of that would be to stop defining it by who has a valid check or cash in hand. Anything has got to be an improvement over that.

 

What to do about those that don't care? I don't know. If I had the answer to that I'd be more than willing to share it. And there is the hypocritical part - these people do have good lines, so do you bad mouth if you might want a pup one day? Ahhhh...the plot thickens.

 

Can we have a culture improvement, and not change the basics of the culture? Keep the dogs livestock, but at least make them well cared for, well sold, livestock?

 

 

 

 

I think it's dificult to judge who's "worthy" and who's not. You know what I mean maybe more than anyone here, when I say I certainly can't claim, with my years of experience and good intentions, that I feel awesome about every single foster dog I've ever placed. :rolleyes:

 

You are right that there are plenty of working breeders who don't take anymore care with where their pups go, than the "free to good home" dudes I see in the Walmart parking lot.

 

But I don't see that we can change that. What would you suggest? Bad mouthing them every time their names come up? Refusing to go to a trial where they are competing?

 

I'm not being snotty - I'm kind of in a huge hurry and I apologize if my post is not very diplomatic.

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Patrick took over sheep watching so I'm back.

 

I do what I can by being honest to people who come to me looking for breeders. One of the most important thing I tell newbies to look for is someone who considers a puppy sale, a mentoring relationship. I don't know whether that makes sense. I know breeders who do sell many litters a year, but will back up every puppy and is happy to keep up contact for the lifetime of the dog.

 

It's a troublesome question, because there are certainly breeders who will sell a pup to anyone, just about. But not all of these are hands off if the buyer takes the trouble to keep up a relationship, themselves. It's tricky. Where's the line? And what exact action should be taken by us, other than raging against the wind? :D

 

As to buying pups from these people ourselves. I follow my own advice - I consider a pup a buy-in to a total philosophy - I have already considered type of farm, training style and methods, and followed relatives or most likely, the parents themselves, from early training to maturity. That way, I have a context for future questions that I'll be pestering the breeder/trainer with. :rolleyes:

 

So I'd be unlikely to want a pup from a "Here's the pup, where's my cash" person, no matter how big their hat is. And really, I just realized that I have NEVER felt that trial success was of any importance - notice it's absence from the list of considerations above. Given a choice from a litter bred by a multi-national winner, or international winner, or someone local who shows competance at training and handling but whose name doesn't necessarily come up in a discussion of "top contenders" - I'd still look first at handling/training style and what they raise on their farm and how they handle their stock.

 

I'd tell a pet buyer to look for someone who raises pups in the home and has at least some of their dogs in the house with them. Or else someone who has a very long track record of successful pet placements. I can make an excellent pet of a dog born in a barn, from total farm dog parents - but a novice owner might be more disappointed in the results if they didn't make more of an effort to find a breeder with a dog raising philosphy similar to their own.

 

Like you say, it's fine to get pups from good breeders who frankly consider their dogs to be "stock" - but it's a bit more iffy to send a novice buyer to that sort of person.

 

Finally, good breeders realize that stupid placements will eventually come back to bite them. Gone are the days when the only thing you knew about a handler/breeder, were the trial results and an occaisional Working Border Collie article or profile.

 

I do think we are too reluctant to name names. If someone badmouths a breeder without good reason, there will be many people able to counter this. Similarly, if your pup is doing well, I don't see why we have to veil the source. It's not name dropping - but for some reason the working Border Collie (sheepdog) culture is oddly reticient about names. I lurk on cattle forums, and of course the kennel club type communities, and it's all about, "Thanks to So and So for the great pup!"

 

I'm feeling a bit like maybe I'm orbiting Debbie's Planet, or possibly that other place that TC lives - I'm not sure what I'm saying here. And I used up way more than three inches to do it. Low blood sugar - I haven't eaten lunch yet. :D

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I shouldn't bite on this one but will, what would be worse, for a buyer to struggle and have a tough time with a well bred one or not sell them one and have the buyer that wants a border collie purchase from a mill, sport breeder or byb? Either way they are going to learn how to train, atleast with a well bred one if they get through it, they still have a well bred dog, with the lesser bred, it don't matter it's still just a dog with papers saying it might work.

 

Not necessarily. You are "assuming" they will train the pup. Will they? Or will they get so upset with the dog and simply give it away or turn it into rescue? Will the breeder take it back? Is said well bred pup beyond repair? Do you even know if the pup will/can work?

 

May as well put a well bred one out there, atleast if they think it is the worlds best, end up breeding it the offspring will be less diluted (working bredy wise) then if they ended up with a dilute and further dilute it.

 

I don't even know HOW to answer this one.......so you don't care if the pup turns into anything it's fine for them to breed it? Regardless? And how are they to know it's breed worthy much less the dog/bitch they bred to? Seems a sure fire way to get a BYB, PM'er started i.e. Sw****** - he had some well bred dogs, none of them worked, but damn the pedigree look fantastic on paper.

 

It don't matter how well bred the dog is, or who it comes from, if you mess it up you mess it up. So they give up and rehome it with it's blue blood papers, that next person breeds it. Better to have pups from it then a lesser bred one.

 

They all will be "lesser" as chances are neither parent has been proven on stock. However, you will be glorified as to being the breeder of the said "blue blooded papers" after that it's ........down the road for this poor dog, either a brood bitch or stud dog but still not breed worthy imo.

 

In regards to the dog that I think is triggering this rant, if I remember correctly the big hat culled it from his program due to it's color, alot of white. I guess he could kill it instead of offering it to a pet home, since he does not have enough faith in it to train it himself or to represent it to a working/trial home.

 

Nothing wrong with a pet home, as long as it's on NB papers. Which I doubt many are using and know some personally (dogs that is) that are not on NB.

 

Flame away, don't really care!!

 

I am beginning to see this.

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I think Deb has a point..I actually think most good breeders need to loosen the reins. I have seen way to many awsome people go to BYBs and Mills because they were turned off by how rightly controlled the "good" breeders were. I cannpot tell you many many times I have heard great people who would make awsome homes for life, tell me how turned off they are about playing 20 questions followed by a super strict contract. the most recent in fact, is a great person, she feeds her dog an awsome food, crate trains, takes her dog to classes, is looking into retreiver training, she goes home every day at lunch to take her puppy for a walk, takes him to the dog park a couple times a week, plans to neuter him etc...etc.. she she heavily researched her breeds and breeders and was willing to drive as far as 8 hours to meet the breeder. guess what? she was completly turned off by the 5000 questions and crazy screening the good breeders were doing. she was one of the lucky ones..I explained to her WHY the screening tend to be so tight and she understood and she got her pup(a lab) from a nice hunting kennel a few hours away. she is the only and only person that I know who has stuck it out. every single other person similer to her that I have talked with, has been so turned off by the tight reins that they turned around and went to a BYB or PM, and they have never looked back they wont even consider "good" breeders now.

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Slight tangent...

 

she was completly turned off by the 5000 questions and crazy screening the good breeders were doing.
This is the same complaint that I hear all the time about rescues. "No one," wants to go through strict screening to get the dog, but people are appalled when dogs wind up in not so ideal situations. It is a catch 22. Would you rather the "reins," are loosened up and aknowledge that without tight screening a percentage of these dogs will go to those seriously less than ideal households, or would you rather take the risk of aleinating a few good homes to insure that you are doing everything you can to place the dogs in a good home?

 

Personally, I prefer tight screening no matter if a dog is a rescue or is a well bred pup. IMHO the concern is not about how the person feels about the process. The concern is the welfare of the dog. I would think that the responcibility of good placement would weigh heavier on a breeder than a rescue because the breeder brought that pup into the world. You become responcible for that dogs life, and since the dog cannot decide who it will wind up with, you must.

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Personally I look for a breeder that ask 5000 questions. If they don't I go elsewhere to look. Why? Because anyone who asks 5000 questions of me is going to answer my questions truthfully. They have nothing to hide and want only the best possible home for their dog. They will honestly try to match you with the right dog or puppy.

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^^Exactly. Using the "too intense" screening process of the good breeder (or rescue) as an excuse to go to a BYB or other less-than-stellar breeder is just plain lame.

 

Sometimes, people just don't know any better when it comes to buying a pup. But is the argument here that it's better to sell puppies to anyone who can pay the asking price than to possibly turn away good pet owners because of a screening process? Even if that means selling the puppies to people who will neglect, mistreat, drop off at the pound or use for indiscriminate breeding?

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Within the next 12 months, I am planning to look for a well bred working BC. I currently do agility and obedience with my barbie collie and ACDS so am technically a sport home and will continue to do this. I am planning to move onto some acreage and running some sheep and would like to think about herding but am a total beginner as far as herding is concerned although I do know a fair bit about sheep.

 

Training dogs has become my passion in life and my dogs are well trained and loved. I would like to plan my next dog which I have determined to be a working BC. I could no doubt likely pick up a dog from a local farmer (is this an option?) as they often give surplus pups away, but would quite like to explore a dog from someone who is responsibly breeding working bred BCs. I am more than happy to go through strict screening process and will do the same to the breeder.

 

I have also been worried that maybe a breeder of working bred collies wouldnt consider selling me a pup if there was any chance I would also do agility with it which is what I may indeed do. I have zero interest in breeding and my dogs are all sterilised around 12 mths old.

 

Despite all this training for competition my dogs are technically my pets first and stay with me to the end regardless.

 

Would a breeder of working breds be interested in me and how do I go about finding one? Do I go to herding venues and look around? this is easier said than done because I currently live at such vast distances from these activities!

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Deb would have a point if (1) it were possible to flood the market with well-bred pups, which by their very nature, it is not possible to do and (2) the good breeder in question actually doesn't give a shit what happens to the pups she sells, which, by the nature of good breeding, is not possible to do.

 

People who give a shit and do a good job will never outcompete the BYBs and mills in terms of numbers. It makes no sense whatsoever to sell pups indiscriminately, nor is it a valid excuse for lazy buyers to patronize bad breeders.

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But is the argument here that it's better to sell puppies to anyone who can pay the asking price than to possibly turn away good pet owners because of a screening process? Even if that means selling the puppies to people who will neglect, mistreat, drop off at the pound or use for indiscriminate breeding?

 

If a breeder has an intensely screened process for buying one of their dogs, these "just a check," people wouldn't be able to make it through the screening process. If all the breeder was concerned about was a check, the pet home would have no problem either with just their check. I am not quite sure I understand what you were getting at? A screening process is in place to weed out those that would neglect, mistreat, etc...

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Would a breeder of working breds be interested in me and how do I go about finding one? Do I go to herding venues and look around? this is easier said than done because I currently live at such vast distances from these activities!

Some won't, others will, especially given that you're an active experienced home that will be sterilising the dog. If you want to PM or email me I can give you a list of breeders as well as trials and training days you can attend to talk to a few people and see some dogs.

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I don't care if you write your dogs in your will and build them their very own gourmet kitchens complete with Francois the canine nutritionist cum master chef. If one can't be bothered to "jump hoops" for a pup from breeder with their head in the right place, and compromise to the extent of supporting BYBs and millers, that person is de facto too self-centered for me to deal with.

 

But the fact is that the 5000 questions approach with the contracts and co-ownership deals tend to be more of a kennel club thing anyway. I find more "relationship" centered puppy dealings in the working world. Breedings are "advertised" though word of mouth, puppy buyers aren't "grilled" so much as counseled (if unknown and a first-timer), and handshakes replace contracts. There's seldom co-ownerships, but breeders (the right kind) are happy to take back their pups anytime, as they believe in what they do.

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oh I am not talking about the reins being dropped completly, I just mean loosened a little, when you are talking about Becca actually sounds just right, a happy medium. councalling and getting to know your buyers is GOOD, a questionair to help you get to know them is GOOD, but a contract stipulating how your are alowed to groom your dog what you are allowed to feed your dog, how you are allowed to train your dog etc.. all assuming you were approved based on your 500 word essay on the breed..thats too much. and yes those are real examples of breeder requirements I have come accross. unfortinatly its the ones like yourself that are few and far between, the ones I find comming up the most often are the ones like I descibe, and the one that hand a puppy to anyone with cash.

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Shayna,

What types of breeders are you finding these requirements from? I have to say that my experience with working breeders has been more what Becca describes, so I'm a bit confused by the previous comments that equated working breeders with being too demanding and now your most recent comments. It sounds to me like the breeders you (or your acquaintances) have encountered are not typical working breeders.

 

ETA: I went back and read your first post and see that you weren't necessarily talking about working breeders (at least not of working border collies), so I'm not sure how your comments apply to a discussion of big hat working border collie breeders selling indiscriminately.

 

I agree that breeders who insist on co-owning and controlling what you feed and how you groom are a bit over the top, but like Becca said, these sound much more like KC-type breeders, and we all know what many of us think of them (I recognize that folks looking for dogs of other breeds have limited choices there, but since this is a border collie forum, I don't know that experiences with other breeds really apply, since at least with border collies--and a few other purpose-bred dogs--there are still working breeders to be found.

 

J.

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I am not quite sure I understand what you were getting at? A screening process is in place to weed out those that would neglect, mistreat, etc...

 

Yes, but in response to the OP "Why do Big Hats sell pups to these people?" one answer was it's better they buy the pup from a Big Hat than a BYB or PM. Then another response was that some breeders drive away good owners with too many questions and screening. So my poorly worded question was are they saying giving the pup to anyone (with all the perils that implies) is preferable to driving away some good (but impatient?) owners in order to protect the pups from bad owners. I didn't see how the screening process issue was fitting into an answer for why would Big Hats sell to poor owners.

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I'm in the screen to much camp. But I have a question...

If a byb'er who's been around the block a bit or a "sport" person looking to breed some good blood, had all the right answers to all the screening questions because they were prepared for the questions..... Then what? I tend to err on the side of trusting people way to much and would/could be douped if someone tried hard a little bit.

I think things happen that some don't know or understand till after the "sale" but the OP question is a good one. What about the ones that know exactly who they are selling to and don't care? Guess it boils down for me to: they have to get in bed with themselves each night and live with what they know they are contributing to...then, that ones on them.

 

I think selling to a person who is willing to learn and maybe not quite know exactly what they're getting into would be ok, as long as I felt the person was going to try and could see the love on the outside. I think that was me when I first started. :rolleyes:

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Yes, but in response to the OP "Why do Big Hats sell pups to these people?" one answer was it's better they buy the pup from a Big Hat than a BYB or PM. Then another response was that some breeders drive away good owners with too many questions and screening. So my poorly worded question was are they saying giving the pup to anyone (with all the perils that implies) is preferable to driving away some good (but impatient?) owners in order to protect the pups from bad owners. I didn't see how the screening process issue was fitting into an answer for why would Big Hats sell to poor owners.

 

Gotcha. :rolleyes: I was just unclear which responce your question was directed at. I agree that the screening process dilemma does not answer the original question posed.

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lol, I am actually refering to working breeders I have run accross in my area. I am not being exlusive to BCs just because they are such a dime a dozen around here, and we dont have any real working breeders in the area(they are all up north) just dime a dozen ranchers. lol. but in other breeds of working dogs that we have up here, I have seen stupidly strict and unflexable breeders, breeders that wont even speak to you if you dont fit perfectly into the slim mold they have concocted.

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I know lots of people up your way I'd take a pup from, in a heartbeat, who I know approach puppy placement with the same philosophy I do. Maybe not in a thirty minute drive of you, but I don't count on that for the right pup. Again, it's about the investment. It's a dog, not a plasma TV set. I don't expect to find exactly what I need at the local Big Mart.

 

If a byb'er who's been around the block a bit or a "sport" person looking to breed some good blood, had all the right answers to all the screening questions because they were prepared for the questions

 

Sure, that happens. In ten years of rescue I was fooled twice by people with all the right answers. But again, it goes back to the goals of the relationship. Both of those times, I was in too big a hurry to see that these guys were telling me exactly what I wanted to hear. If I had simply done a bit of usual background checking, or even followed my usual process, it would have been obvious that they had agendas other than what they were sharing.

 

Generally these are the same people who are impatient of extra steps like meeting you at YOUR place, having a meetup on neutral ground with other pets, making sure everyone in the family meets the prospective pet, ect. Good breeders don't typically do that kind of stuff, but they want you to see their dogs working, talk to you about your goals and expectations, want lots of contacts and references, and they insist on knowing where you are in the future.

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