Re: training: What about this one?

[Tommy Coyote]

Jack Knox said this over and over at the clinic I went to in December:

 

Make it very difficult for the dog to do it wrong. Make it very easy for the dog to do it right.

 

I have been trying to do that with my dog but she is such an easy dog that I very seldom even correct her. And she is soft.

 

But I was reading the discussion on pressure and how dogs need to be able to take pressure. Tommy can't take pressure. She just folds right up - and that is my fault. So we are starting to work on that.

 

Baby steps. I don't want to overwhelm her but she has to learn to be able to take corrections.

[juliepoudrier]

TC,

If you don't already use voice corrections, start. I believe when you posted about Tommy not coming to you when called, I probably mentioned a drag line. I might have left out the part that I do naturally, which is to give a voice correction when the dog doesn't come and before issuing the command again or reeling the dog in or walking it down. So for example, if you say "Tommy, come!" and she ignores you. The very next thing out of your mouth is a voice correction, something like "Hey!" Then you ask her to come again. All my pups learn voice corrections early on, and it comes in handy for things like this. A simple voice correction shouldn't send a dog into a tailspin.

 

You may also have noticed that Jack will sometimes put *more* pressure on a dog that's reacting badly to pressure. You have to be expert at reading a dog to do this, but the point is to not let the dog learn that if it acts all scared or falls to pieces it will be *rewarded* by a release of pressure. That may be the problem you're dealing with if you've been reacting to Tommy's responses by backing off. It's hard to describe, but I'm sure you've seen Jack do it.

 

J.

[Tommy Coyote]

I am using the drag line and we practice the come everyday. She does great as long as she knows she is on the line. She just runs right up and sits down.

 

This sounds impossible but she is hard to catch even on her line. She knows exactly where to run so that she doesn't get snagged and she just goes flying by. I can't catch her at all on a 20 foot line. I think her line is about 40 feet now. It keeps getting shorter.

 

Tommy the flying border collie. She's really little and has these really long legs so she is just faster than the devil.

[Lenajo]

This sounds impossible but she is hard to catch even on her line. She knows exactly where to run so that she doesn't get snagged and she just goes flying by. I can't catch her at all on a 20 foot line. I think her line is about 40 feet now. It keeps getting shorter.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm terribly confused. In a prior thread you wanted a second puppy, and when I said you had problems training the first to even recall and should concentrate on her you told me, in short, that everything was well and no more problems.

 

So when did you start having problems with the recall again?

 

Lack of ability to take corrections/pressure is something that results more often from a general situation rather than a specific one. For example, letting a puppy entertain herself as a primary means of entertainment/exercise sets a puppy up to have the attitude that the least pressure, and the most fun, comes from being away from you.

 

Not only then, do you need to look at the immediate pressure you are applying and show her how you want her to handle it, but you also need to look at lifestyle. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy indeed....and all play and no work makes Jack a Brat.

[Tommy Coyote]

I'm sorry, but I'm terribly confused. In a prior thread you wanted a second puppy, and when I said you had problems training the first to even recall and should concentrate on her you told me, in short, that everything was well and no more problems.

 

So when did you start having problems with the recall again?

 

Lack of ability to take corrections/pressure is something that results more often from a general situation rather than a specific one. For example, letting a puppy entertain herself as a primary means of entertainment/exercise sets a puppy up to have the attitude that the least pressure, and the most fun, comes from being away from you.

 

Not only then, do you need to look at the immediate pressure you are applying and show her how you want her to handle it, but you also need to look at lifestyle. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy indeed....and all play and no work makes Jack a Brat.

 

Sorry, pushed the wrong button.

 

I think I said we were getting there and we are. It's not like we are getting ready to compete in some big competition. She mainly just needs to know to behave herself and come when she's called. And we are getting there. She is so good in the house and with the other dog that I rarely have to say anthing to her. But she needs to be able to take a correction without getting her feelings hurt.

[Journey]

I put Tommy out four or five times a day and just let her run her little feet of in the back yard. She is a puppy and needs activity.

 

Yep, simply letting them go like this will turn them into brats. Lack of supervision, structure, and inconsistent if any training. She has to be able to "learn" before she can learn to take corrections, training, not simply putting her in the yard alone.

[OurBoys]

Yep, simply letting them go like this will turn them into brats. Lack of supervision, structure, and inconsistent if any training. She has to be able to "learn" before she can learn to take corrections, training, not simply putting her in the yard alone.

I agree.

 

Sounds like Tommy might have trained you into playing her game. What does she do if you turn your back on her and start walking away from her when she tries to engage you in her catch-me-if-you-can game?

 

Making yourself more fun than the game will work too. Does she like balls? If so, keep one in your pocket (at least out of sight). When she starts running from you, take the ball out, stand there and start bouncing it.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Wow. My pup gets five minutes of free play at a time (ETA: YARD free time - he's free to do whatever inside as long as he's in eyeball range) - usually playing with one or the other of my dogs that like to play wrestle/run games. And I keep a fairly close eye on him during these times (but I make sure he doesn't necessarily see me watching). Every so often I have to correct him for something (his latest favorite is starting to chase the neighbor's golf cart, along the fence), so I consider even this one of the more important learning times.

 

Puppyhood should be, in my feeling, all about learning that Mom Is the Most Interesting Thing Ever. They start out with this instinct when they are wee pups, but during the next year they go through phase after phase where you'll feel like you are waking up and you never know whether it will be the puppy that listens, or the puppy with the active middle digit, that will start the day with you THIS time.

 

I've learned not only to accept these phases, and not let them make me mad, but to welcome them as signs that maturity is on the horizon. Every time your pup disobeys, congratulate yourself that you have another chance to reinforce what you are trying to teach her.

 

Jack wants a dog that follows him around as a default behavior and does not seek out "self-entertainment." If you leave the room, or walk around the corner in your yard, your dog should get up and follow because they are curious about what you might do.

 

This is, in fact, what most working trainers want. I haven't yet accomplished this thoroughly in a pup since I only figured this out about halfway through raising the last pup. Ted definitely found sheep more attractive than anything I might do to stop him, for a long time.

 

I have a couple of games you can play to rehab your pup at this point, if you are interested. But you have to promise no more long periods of free play. Keeping up with you and wondering what you are about to do, blows off enough mental steam for a pup - truly. You'll have to take care of stretching her muscles with nice walks, or supervised play, but again that's of secondary importance at this age.

[Tommy Coyote]

Yep, simply letting them go like this will turn them into brats. Lack of supervision, structure, and inconsistent if any training. She has to be able to "learn" before she can learn to take corrections, training, not simply putting her in the yard alone.

She is so not a brat. I just take her out and say Tommy, run. And she just runs and runs. And then I tell her its time to come in now. If I don't have ahold of her line she runs to the back door and waits for me. If I have her line she comes up to me. I am working on getting her to come directly to me all the time.

 

I want to be able to take her up to Smithville Lake this winter so she can just run full out and play. There are miles and miles of grassy areas up there. I need to be sure that she will come everytime before we ever try that.

[Tommy Coyote]

Wow. My pup gets five minutes of free play at a time - usually playing with one or the other of my dogs that like to play wrestle/run games. And I keep a fairly close eye on him during these times (but I make sure he doesn't necessarily see me watching). Every so often I have to correct him for something (his latest favorite is starting to chase the neighbor's golf cart, along the fence), so I consider even this one of the more important learning times.

 

Puppyhood should be, in my feeling, all about learning that Mom Is the Most Interesting Thing Ever. They start out with this instinct when they are wee pups, but during the next year they go through phase after phase where you'll feel like you are waking up and you never know whether it will be the puppy that listens, or the puppy with the active middle digit, that will start the day with you THIS time.

 

I've learned not only to accept these phases, and not let them make me mad, but to welcome them as signs that maturity is on the horizon. Every time your pup disobeys, congratulate yourself that you have another chance to reinforce what you are trying to teach her.

 

Jack wants a dog that follows him around as a default behavior and does not seek out "self-entertainment." If you leave the room, or walk around the corner in your yard, your dog should get up and follow because they are curious about what you might do.

 

This is, in fact, what most working trainers want. I haven't yet accomplished this thoroughly in a pup since I only figured this out about halfway through raising the last pup. Ted definitely found sheep more attractive than anything I might do to stop him, for a long time.

 

I have a couple of games you can play to rehab your pup at this point, if you are interested. But you have to promise no more long periods of free play. Keeping up with you and wondering what you are about to do, blows off enough mental steam for a pup - truly. You'll have to take care of stretching her muscles with nice walks, or supervised play, but again that's of secondary importance at this age.

She may do 10 minutes at a time. I do let her sit outside and squirrel watch sometimes. She just sits under the trees and scans the sky for squirrels.

[Debbie Meier]

I am using the drag line and we practice the come everyday. She does great as long as she knows she is on the line. She just runs right up and sits down.

 

This sounds impossible but she is hard to catch even on her line. She knows exactly where to run so that she doesn't get snagged and she just goes flying by. I can't catch her at all on a 20 foot line. I think her line is about 40 feet now. It keeps getting shorter.

 

Tommy the flying border collie. She's really little and has these really long legs so she is just faster than the devil.

 

I have a feeling that your are trying to catch her which is putting pressure on her from behind actually sending her away from you. When you want to catch her up first get her to stop, I would suspect that she is like most dogs that have a path and is predictable, when she runs off go to where she is going to be, your presence will put pressure in the spot making her intentions difficult. She will momentarily stop, if you time it right you can quietly say here. If she starts to come take a step back, this pressure release will reward her thought of coming. Build on that until either she makes it to you, reducing your pressure release each time or until she decides that she can't take it and runs off on a new path. No big deal, just go to where she is going to be again. With out working hard you will be able to block her into a place, maybe a corner, at that point the easiest option will be to come to you. Go slow, I don't talk except in a real quiet almost whisper voice and only at key times, note, be careful that you don't lean into her when you talk, if your words are meant to sooth lean back, if they are meant to correct square and tip just a touch forward. Pressure on, make the action difficult, pressure off, give her the path and make it easy.

 

Also, anytime my dogs are dragging a cord I am aware of their response as I bend down (especially the pups), some will start to move off taking my lean down toward them as a cue to move, with those dogs, rather then making a quick run for the cord, I stop, settle them and start over showing them that I don't want them to move right now, this pressure change is not for them. Others may run to me when they feel me bend down, I don't want that either, I want them to stay put until I apply the proper recall pressure, either a here to me or a little pressure on the cord.

 

One way to look at it is teaching a foreign language, you don't want the dog to put just any response with any action or word. One different letter changes the meaning of a particular word, much like suttle changes in my body position may change what I want from move off to do nothing, I'm not talking to you. I'm not saying to be tricky, be aware of your body position and actions so that you can be a clear communicator to the dog who's already understands the language of pressure and release.

 

Story...last fall a friend of mine stopped over after working with one of the top trainers out west, not someone I've ever worked with. The problem was that the dog would start a short outrun and then slice in. The trainer watched what was happening, watched how the handler and dog communicated. Here was the suggestion, when you send your dog, consciously rock your shoulders back as you give the command. The dog went off on his outrun and rather then slicing right in he stayed out in the right place. One little change in our body can get a different result from the dog, it is really wierd. As she and I talked about it the only thing we could come up with is that the dog was taking the initial direction from her voice but then changing to go to the stock when the handler focused or rocked toward the stock. We chalked it up to miscommunication, the dog was not trying to be wrong, just misunderstood what he was supposed to do.

 

Deb

[Root Beer]

This is a left field suggestion, and you might not be interested, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

I just purchased a DVD of a very, very simple program to teach a dog a solid recall to a whistle.

 

I'm not officially recommending it because I only got the DVD yesterday and have only started Step 1, but it seems like it will be extremely effective. I don't have firsthand results to report, though.

 

I'm actually testing it out on my 10 year old dog on whom we never bothered to train a solid recall!!! OK, so I can be a very bad dog trainer when I have zero interest in training something in particular, but the cool thing is that I can now test this program on a dog who is really, really, really set in his way of only coming when called when he feels like it! If it works on him, I will recommend the program!!

 

Anyway, you might not like it because it is a reinforcement based program and it does require the use of a lot of treats to teach the recall.

 

That said, I think it has great potential to give you exactly the kind of results that you want to do this:

 

I want to be able to take her up to Smithville Lake this winter so she can just run full out and play. There are miles and miles of grassy areas up there. I need to be sure that she will come everytime before we ever try that.

 

Now I know you might not want to use a whistle for recall if you are going to do stockwork, but you could replace the whistle in the program with a recall word - or another audible signal like a bell or something.

 

If you are interested, let me know and I will PM you the name of the program and where to get it.

 

Some things I like about this program:

 

1. It's very simple. There are only 5 steps. You do spend significant time on each step, but there are only 5 steps.

 

2. The steps are easy, easy, easy to do.

 

3. You can absolutely do this with dog of any age - from puppy to senior

 

4. In addition to being a potentially life saving skill, this is a great bonding exercise

 

5. The whistle can be heard over long distances and you don't have to shout!

 

I'm no help with pressure or corrections, but if you are just looking for that solid recall and you want to give this a shot, let me know and I'll get you the info.

[Caroline Reichard]

She is so not a brat. I just take her out and say Tommy, run. And she just runs and runs. And then I tell her its time to come in now. If I don't have ahold of her line she runs to the back door and waits for me. If I have her line she comes up to me. I am working on getting her to come directly to me all the time.

 

I want to be able to take her up to Smithville Lake this winter so she can just run full out and play. There are miles and miles of grassy areas up there. I need to be sure that she will come everytime before we ever try that.

 

 

How old is this dog now? I'm assuming that she is over 6 months.

 

From the way that she is being described, it doesn't sound as though she can't take pressure; it sounds as though she won't take pressure and thinks that you won't make her.

 

IMHO, a dog that sizes up a situation, knows whether or not it is on a line and decides whether or not to come accordingly, and shuts down when you try to tell her to do something she doesn't want to is being a brat. It is normal for a young dog to try out being a brat every now and then, but you have to answer it correctly. I agree with the all the advice that says that this dog has WAAAAYYYYY too much freedom. Assuming that she is already a big girl, I would suggest thinking about crating or kenneling her for a few weeks or months and making her earn her freedom and privilages.

 

A decent recall is not a training goal that should take many months, but if she has learned that she can beat you then you have to get really serious about wanting to fix it. On the good side, it will be a training opportunity in which you can clearly clarify some fundamental issues about who is in charge.

[juliepoudrier]

TC,

Do you want suggestions on how to improve your pup's recall, etc., or are you just starting these threads because you want to make conversation? I'm not being a smart ass here; it just seems that when you post something like this latest thread and people start making suggestions, your responses are all "yes, but" type answers, which says to me that you don't really want any advice.

 

And if you do actually want advice, then how about telling us what you're doing to "make the wrong difficult and the right easy"?

 

J.

[Jedismom]

I just purchased a DVD of a very, very simple program to teach a dog a solid recall to a whistle.

I'm no help with pressure or corrections, but if you are just looking for that solid recall and you want to give this a shot, let me know and I'll get you the info.

 

 

Kristine,

 

Would you post a website to this so I can look into it?

 

Thanks,

 

Georgia

[Lenajo]

What do you want from this pup? A black and white yard rabbit that runs and runs and runs? or do you want a companion?

 

You don't get a companion when you raise them like a yard rabbit, much less a working dog that can take training in a normal manner.

 

She may not genetically be a brat, but you are raising her to be one. Hence what you saw when you tried to train her on sheep a little with Jack Knox.

 

 

 

She is so not a brat. I just take her out and say Tommy, run. I am working on getting her to come directly to me all the time.

 

I want to be able to take her up to Smithville Lake this winter so she can just run full out and play. There are miles and miles of grassy areas up there. I need to be sure that she will come everytime before we ever try that.

[Tommy Coyote]

How old is this dog now? I'm assuming that she is over 6 months.

 

From the way that she is being described, it doesn't sound as though she can't take pressure; it sounds as though she won't take pressure and thinks that you won't make her.

 

IMHO, a dog that sizes up a situation, knows whether or not it is on a line and decides whether or not to come accordingly, and shuts down when you try to tell her to do something she doesn't want to is being a brat. It is normal for a young dog to try out being a brat every now and then, but you have to answer it correctly. I agree with the all the advice that says that this dog has WAAAAYYYYY too much freedom. Assuming that she is already a big girl, I would suggest thinking about crating or kenneling her for a few weeks or months and making her earn her freedom and privilages.

 

A decent recall is not a training goal that should take many months, but if she has learned that she can beat you then you have to get really serious about wanting to fix it. On the good side, it will be a training opportunity in which you can clearly clarify some fundamental issues about who is in charge.

She's 10 months.

[Root Beer]

Would you post a website to this so I can look into it?

 

I don't want to hijack this thread on such a different topic. I PM'ed it to you.

[Lenajo]

She may do 10 minutes at a time. I do let her sit outside and squirrel watch sometimes. She just sits under the trees and scans the sky for squirrels.

 

That is not a productive habit. Why oh why, would you encourage it?

[Journey]

He told me to get a 20 foot line. Let the dog go out to the end of it. Call her name and then jerk the line. If she doesn't come jerk it again. Never go to the dog. The dog must come to you.

 

What about this? You said it a while ago. Did you try it? Does it work?

[martySQ]

Now I'm a little confused because I have read many times on the boards here if the dog doesn't do right, walk it down and make it do right.

[Sue R]

Now I'm a little confused because I have read many times on the boards here if the dog doesn't do right, walk it down and make it do right.

Walking it down is what you do when the dog will not recall and you don't have a line on him/her.

 

If you have a long line, then the dog has to choose when you make it "uncomfortable" for it by /tugging/jerking (and this can be gentle to start, and more firm for a dog that "knows better") - wow, I am not saying this well. As long as the dog does not come, you do the jerking - it's made uncomfortable by the jerking, which stops when it chooses to come, at which time you also praise.

 

When you have the long line, the dog must choose to come to you (or you can increase the jerking, again dependent on what the dog already knows and understands, if it doesn't respond appropriately - to the point of reeling the dog in if it chooses to not come at all).

 

When you don't have a long line, and you have given the recall command, the dog ignores it, you give a verbal correction ("aght!" or "hey!) and it ignores it, and then you walk the dog down, quietly and calmly but with presence and persistence - and don't punish the dog when it stops and/or lies down, and allows you to take hold its collar. Put the lead on, and without any further display of displeasure, take the dog on to where you were and whatever you needed to be doing when you recalled.

[Maralynn]

I want to be able to take her up to Smithville Lake this winter so she can just run full out and play. There are miles and miles of grassy areas up there. I need to be sure that she will come everytime before we ever try that.

 

I get the sense that you're interested in getting Tommy to the point where she is able to entertain herself when outside. I would train her to do something with you so when you go out to an open area, she is looking to you to provide the fun and entertainment. I'd want the attitude that when she gets out of the car, she turns her focus right to you. She will come everytime if it is drilled into her that you are the source of everything best outside. She will not come if she finds squirrels a great source of entertainment.

 

I would still not let Kipp entertain himself and just run and play. He is an active, curious, high drive dog - he will get into trouble. He is fine being off leash at a variey of places while working serches and training. He has a purpose and knows his job. I'll let him out a variety of places to play ball and frisbee with me - I'm directly involved with the game and will incorporate obedience into it. I want a dog that gets out of the car thinking "what's the activity that we are going to do here?" "not "whee - I can run and run and run"

[Shetlander]

I want a dog that gets out of the car thinking "what's the activity that we are going to do here?" "not "whee - I can run and run and run"

 

That's a really good point. The more you interact/play/train/keep in touch with your pup, the more she will look to you for adventure and fun. That builds the bond that makes her want to stick around or return as soon as she is called. Like Maralynn and others, I don't just let my dogs out to run and entertain themselves. I used to do that but I've learned that dogs easily practice behaviors I don't like when not supervised. Management is extremely helpful in preventing problems while training the behaviors you do want. Every time Tommy practices running off and playing keep-away, her recall is going to be that much harder to fix.

 

I'll add my vote to using the walk-down to correct ignored recalls. It is especially easy to do in a fenced in yard and dogs do not like it. The first time I did it with Quinn, he initially thought it was a game and leaped around like a goofball. Somehow I kept from laughing at his antics and kept following him. All of a sudden, you could see it was no longer fun for him and he came running to me. It is really a great technique.