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I'm sorry you feel that way, seriously. There is no reason to. I think it bears repeating ... the only time someone should be concerned whether or not a dog works livestock is if the dog is being considered for breeding. Period.

Your two cents and a lot of other people's too. We all love these dogs, and for most of us, these guys are pets first. If someone is trying to make you feel 2nd rate because your pets don't work livestock, tell them to get bent.

Absolutely! It has been said over and over again that a good home is the most important aspect of a dog's life, and folks here have offered that they'd rather see a pup they produced or a dog they owned go to a good pet home than to a poor working home.

 

Don't feel second-rate - any person who tells you are is out-of-line.

 

As jdarling said, it is only *breeding* for something other than working ability that goes against the philosophy of this board and is detrimental to the breed.

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I'm just asking a question here because I don't know anything about agility. Are the dogs allowed to think or do they only do what they do on command? Like in obedience the dogs are not supposed to anticipate?

 

I ask that because the working dogs can think. They cover their sheep. I've seen them react to situations and cover their sheep before the handler even knows there is a problem out there. They can work completely out of site of the handler.

Alert - I have only taken some agility classes as a recreational pursuit, not "seriously" or with competition in mind.

 

In agility, the handler knows what the course is and must be able to communicate to the dog which obstacle is next and, to a degree, how to get there. The dog follows the handler's body language and signals to execute the course correctly. Anticipation would be a mistake, I think, because sometimes the obstacle that "appears" to be next is not the next obstacle, and a dog that anticipates and heads to the next apparent obstacle will sometimes find itself off-course.

 

Someone who really does agility can correct me on this, but I don't believe anticipation is encouraged in agility (except the anticipation that goes along with getting ready to run :rolleyes: ).

 

My dogs read sheep and cattle better than I do. Most of the mistakes made in their training and work are really handler mistakes. They were bred for this and I certainly wasn't! :D

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I'm just asking a question here because I don't know anything about agility. Are the dogs allowed to think or do they only do what they do on command? Like in obedience the dogs are not supposed to anticipate?

 

Even in obedience, the dog is "allowed" to think. The dog always has a choice to respond to a cue or not and there are distractions to handle, etc.

 

Agility is, I think, more of a thinking game for the dog. Granted, the course is set by the judge and the handler is directing the dog. At the same time, the dog often needs to make decisions in order to respond correctly. There is a lot of thinking for the dog in Agility. Not to be uppity (I'm hardly an expert), but honestly I think one would actually have to play the game to really see how that works. It's rather surprising. It's much more complex than it looks.

 

Remember, the dog is running and is reading handler body language, verbal cues, and physically doing what is necessary to execute each piece of equipment correctly. Throw in difficult skills like weave entries and contact behaviors, and the dog is multitasking like crazy - all while running.

 

In Agility anticipation can be an asset. In fact, it's very difficult to play Agility with a dog who is not anticipating to some degree. While you want your dog to remain stationary at the start line (unless you are doing another kind of start), you really want the dog to be eager to get going. There are no points off for the dog to be leaning forward, eyes on the first obstacle, ready to GO!

 

There is some leeway in how much a handler welcomes creative input on the part of the dog in Agility. Personally, I appreciate it even if it costs me a Q. Some handlers get very nasty about it. That's really handler's choice. Most people do regard Agility as a game and the world doesn't end if the dog makes a mistake.

 

I ask that because the working dogs can think. They cover their sheep. I've seen them react to situations and cover their sheep before the handler even knows there is a problem out there. They can work completely out of site of the handler.

 

The fact that the dog is thinking to achieve a different task in stockwork does not mean that the dog is not thinking when doing something unrelated. And even when working with the handler in any context, the dog is thinking.

 

While it is true that we never send an Agility dog out to complete a course on his or her own, that's actually totally irrelevant. That's not the point of the activity.

 

In fact, one of the challenges of Agility is that the dog must be able to mentally process handler cues while running all out. That takes some brain power.

 

And Border Collies tend to excell at using their brains in that way.

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Someone who really does agility can correct me on this, but I don't believe anticipation is encouraged in agility (except the anticipation that goes along with getting ready to run :rolleyes: ).

 

It's a balance, really.

 

There is nothing more frustrating than a dog who is out there with an "I don't care" attitude. You might be able to convince the dog to get into it and get moving, but you can't get much done unless the dog musters up some interest.

 

On the other hand, a dog who is running out ahead doing whatever with no mind to the handler at all is just as big of a problem.

 

What you really want is a dog who is mentally anticipating - looking ahead, sizing up the game, but is also tuned in to the handler's directives.

 

Part of the handler's job - one of the hardest parts for me - is making sure that you are in the right place to help the dog anticipate correctly!!!

 

Honestly, if I have to have one extreme or the other, I'll take the dog who is anticipating any day of the week. It's easier for me to learn new handling skills and better ways to communicate with my dog than to try to spark interest in a dog who would rather sniff or lie in the sun. (I did make an Agility dog out of one of those and I love her and I'm proud of her, but the one who tends to anticipate is progressing way faster than she ever did!!)

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My dogs are pets, not working dogs. And I've always felt 2nd rate because of that. I come through and read posts all the time, but it's rare that I actually say anything, or even ask questions anymore. I always feel like I'm getting the whole "you mean your dogs dont work? Bad you. You're poor dogs" routine and so on.

 

 

Thant's too bad. You should stick around and ask questions if you need help. No one should feel bad just because they don't do an activity with their dog, it's your dog, you love them, who cares what others think!

 

The problem I have with the OP is that she said

If you are looking for a pet that you can take to social events, or to a dog park or to agility events - etc, etc, etc. Why on earth would you choose a border collie? Aren't there a million breeds out there that would fill those niches a whole lot better? If you like to jog five miles a day there must be 50 other breeds that could do that and be good in social situations at the same time.

 

I feel sorry for so many people that post here. They get a border collie and then try to force it into a role that the dog was never meant to fill. Its like trying to put a round stick in a square hole. Of course you are going to have trouble. And you and the dog are both going to be miserable.

and then come to find out she has basically no knowledge of Agility and has been out of the dog loop for about 10 years.

 

My question, that has been asked upon just about every page of this thread - "What do you do with the working pups that will not work? Do you cull them, place them in sport homes or pet homes, and why? TC so far refuses to answer it, is it that she can't? Or that she feels no Border Collie belongs anywhere unless it's working stock? That can't be though as she is a pet home herself? Why should someone who loves the breed not be able to have one because someone else thinks that you are trying to put a "round stick in a square hole"!

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Root Beer: So what is the difference between say a Hob Nob dog and a Jack Knox dog? Are they faster, structurally different, different temperments? What is there about the Hob Nob dogs that makes them so desirable to sports people? Or is part of it just marketing the name as a stand out sport dog?

 

This is not a trick question. What I am getting at is if agility becomes the major activity of border collie owners - which over time that may happen - is there something in the very essence of the border collie that may be changing in order to accommodate the demands of the new sport?

 

And if that is the case then what do we need to do to be sure the original working border collie is protected.

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I'm just asking a question here because I don't know anything about agility. Are the dogs allowed to think or do they only do what they do on command? Like in obedience the dogs are not supposed to anticipate?

 

I don't know anything about stock work so it's hard for me to compare.

 

Border collies seem to pick up on minute handler changes, so often just the slightest change of shoulders can send the dog in another direction. If my dog takes a wrong obstical I always stop in my tracks and look at what he is reading off my body.

So where the stock dog is "reading" sheep, the agility dog becomes an expert at reading the handler.

 

Running a Border collie in agility isn't as easy as you would think. Yes, they are game for it. But imagine trying to direct a dog through complicated manuevers at a very high rate of speed and often with the dog at a distance. Maybe this isn't as natural as working stock, but there is much, much more to this than commanding "teeter", "Jump", etc, etc, etc.

I actually trained with my own dog for 3 years before I began to trial him.

 

So maybe this isn't as natural as stock work but What are you saying? I shouldn't own a Border collie unless I'm willing to work stock with my dog? I don't get your beef? Yes, it's sad that many breeds no longer are doing the jobs that they were originally bred to do.

This isn't so easy to do in our changing society. I probably am not meeting all my dog's needs when it comes to his hard-wiring, However, I'm doing the best that I can with the resources that I have available to me.

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Root Beer: So what is the difference between say a Hob Nob dog and a Jack Knox dog?

 

Do you mean as Agility prospects or working prospects? I can't speak to the working aspect except that I know that working folks on this board would get a dog from Jack Knox, but not from Hob Nob. Individual dogs from either might make fine Agility dogs, or (equally) might not be suited to Agility.

 

Are they faster, structurally different, different temperments? What is there about the Hob Nob dogs that makes them so desirable to sports people? Or is part of it just marketing the name as a stand out sport dog?

 

I'd say it's the marketing. Go to an Agility trial and go around and ask people if they even know who Jack Knox is and I'd bet that most of them will never have heard of him. It would be interesting to ask those with Border Collies in particular. I'd be willing to wager that at least half either would not have heard of him or have heard his name, but know nothing except that he runs sheepdog clinics.

 

Why would people desire a dog from someone they have either never heard of or really know nothing about?

 

Now, seriously, I doubt most run of the mill folks at an Agility trial will have heard of Hob Nob, either. I never heard of them until the recent thread.

 

But, again, people who only know dog sports and have no awareness of the working stockdog world (and honestly if they aren't memebers here or aren't personally acquainted with someone who does stockwork, they just won't have that awareness), are going to go to a sport breeder for a sport dog. I'm not saying they should, but that finding a working breeder on purpose is just not something that many of them know about.

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I don't know anything about stock work so it's hard for me to compare.

 

Border collies seem to pick up on minute handler changes, so often just the slightest change of shoulders can send the dog in another direction. If my dog takes a wrong obstical I always stop in my tracks and look at what he is reading off my body.

So where the stock dog is "reading" sheep, the agility dog becomes an expert at reading the handler.

 

Running a Border collie in agility isn't as easy as you would think. Yes, they are game for it. But imagine trying to direct a dog through complicated manuevers at a very high rate of speed and often with the dog at a distance. Maybe this isn't as natural as working stock, but there is much, much more to this than commanding "teeter", "Jump", etc, etc, etc.

I actually trained with my own dog for 3 years before I began to trial him.

 

So maybe this isn't as natural as stock work but What are you saying? I shouldn't own a Border collie unless I'm willing to work stock with my dog? I don't get your beef? Yes, it's sad that many breeds no longer are doing the jobs that they were originally bred to do.

This isn't so easy to do in our changing society. I probably am not meeting all my dog's needs when it comes to his hard-wiring, However, I'm doing the best that I can with the resources that I have available to me.

Oh, please. I couldn't any more do agility than fly. I would have the dog racing into the next county in about 2 seconds flat. And I would be laying there flat on the ground where I tripped over my own feet.

 

I can't see where it hurts anybody - dog or handler - to do stuff with their dogs. I play with mine. You do agility with yours. Someone else goes hiking with theirs. If its fun for you and your dog go for it. I can't see where my having two border collies as pets bothers anybody. We are completely out of the gene pool. And we don't bother our neighbors.

 

My concern is what happens to the breed as a whole - not individual dogs and owners - if there get to be more border collies out there in sports and whatever than there are in any other venue. When those people are breeding for specific attributes for each venue. Where the very essence of the working dog may be at risk.

 

If that is happening then it becomes very important for the working people to step up and protect the existence of the working sheepdog. Maybe that isn't even a real concern - we can always bring the dogs in from Scotland.

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This post is actually one of the reasons I dont post much on here. My dogs are pets, not working dogs. And I've always felt 2nd rate because of that. I come through and read posts all the time, but it's rare that I actually say anything, or even ask questions anymore. I always feel like I'm getting the whole "you mean your dogs dont work? Bad you. You're poor dogs" routine and so on.

 

You know, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I've been on this forum for nearly a decade [ETA: oops, I guess it has been a decade] and I've never gotten the sense that the people on this forum look down on pet owners or consider them second-class citizens. In fact, over the years ISTM that most working dog folks bend over backward to make it clear that they don't consider pet owners second-class citizens. And yet, regularly someone comes along and cries the "I feel second rate because I don't work my dog on stock" cry. I think it's a cop out, personally. The people on this forum who work their dogs pretty much never tell pet owners that they shouldn't have border collies or take a "your poor dogs" tone with them (or anyone else). Those who do feel that way generally don't join in on the general discussions, so they certainly can't make anyone feel second class.

 

The OP on this thread is a newcomer to the forum and certainly not someone who works her dogs on stock. How could anything she says or implies bother you? She's a fellow PET owner!

 

The people who have brought up working dogs in this thread have done so in the context of asking the OP how she can take the stand that pet ownership, sports, etc., is bad for the breed when she herself is a pet owner. I don't see how that could be construed as insulting to all pet owners. It's simply folks pointing out the inconsistencies in someone else's thinking.

 

As Jodi said, for many of us who work our dogs, they are still pets. I don't have enough work on the farm to keep my working-age border collies busy all the time. So what do they do in their off time? They're pets! Several sleep on the bed with me. They all live in the house. I take them jogging and for long walks. We visit friends' farms and although we work stock on those visits, if there's a pond available I also bring my bucket of balls and everyone goes for a swim and a nice, long, muddy, messy game of "fetch the balls in the pond."

 

So, I'm sorry if you don't wish to post because you feel second rate, but to push that off on the rest of us is just wrong. And sorry if this is a bit strongly worded, but after all this time, I do get rather tired of this particular lament because I see no evidence that it's founded on any real truth.

 

J.

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Yes, agility dogs do think, but there is absolutely no comparison to the level of mental input and equal partnership required of a dog working stock.

 

Work the same dog for an hour in each discipline and you'll see.

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Yes, agility dogs do think, but there is absolutely no comparison to the level of mental input and equal partnership required of a dog working stock.

 

Work the same dog for an hour in each discipline and you'll see.

Someone once described the difference as stockwork being like trying agility where the obstacles have minds of their own and can move at will. It's a case of three species interacting and with environmental influences. versus two species interacting on a flat, good-traction surface and immobile obstacles (well, except the teeter, and it's movement is limited).

 

Nevertheless, agility is great fun, good exercise, and something that promotes a good partnership between dog and handler, and I think it is a very worthwhile endeavor - I wish I was in the position to do it again with Megan, just for the enjoyment we both shared.

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If that is happening then it becomes very important for the working people to step up and protect the existence of the working sheepdog. Maybe that isn't even a real concern - we can always bring the dogs in from Scotland.

 

It seems to me that this is the topic of many conversations on this board. And it's not only the working people. There are actually (gasp!) sports people on the board who also care about this!! OK, that was a little snarky. My bad.

 

The fact of the matter is, though, that Border Collies as pets and as sport dogs are here to stay. Those of us who love training them and competing with them aren't going to get rid of them and get other types of dogs just so there will be less Border Collies in sports. That's simply not going to happen!

 

And it's also a fact that there are scads of very happy Border Collies who are playing Agility, playing other dog sports, doing SAR, doing all sorts of things, and who are just companions. These dogs aren't sitting around pining and feeling unfulfilled because they aren't doing stockwork. They aren't sad all the time or plotting rebellion because they don't get to use their brains in the exact same manner that their ancestors did.

 

That said, I think there is a link between some (nota bene: some, not all) behavior issues in some Border Collies that can be linked to a shift of some of the traits that have been genetically developed in Border Collies over the years due to breeding. But by and large most of the behavior issues that I see in Border Collies are really quite typical dog behavior issues that are just as common, if not more so, in most other breeds.

 

Preserving the Border Collie as a working stockdog is important.

 

But Border Collies in sports are here to stay. Somehow there must be a reconciliation between the two because Border Collies in sports are simply not going anywhere.

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Yes, agility dogs do think, but there is absolutely no comparison to the level of mental input and equal partnership required of a dog working stock.

 

Work the same dog for an hour in each discipline and you'll see.

 

I don't think anybody would say that it's the same.

 

It is not the case, however, (and I'm not saying that you said this, Melanie - you didn't), that the dog thinks in stockwork but does not think in Agility. It is absolutely very, very different. Still, in both endeavours, the dog's brain is engaged, it is functioning, and the dog is thinking. The dog is making decisions, as well. One could argue that the dog is making "more important" decisions in stockwork, but that does not cancel out the fact that there is a decision making element in Agility. There absolutely is - a considerable one.

 

The level of mental input differs, but there is absolutely mental input in both stockwork and dog sports. It's not like sport dogs are robots or something with all of the thinking ability somehow trained out of them.

 

Train and compete in dog sports with a high level of commitment for several years and that is very clear. :rolleyes:

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Just a thought after the Knox/Hob Nob question, the difference is selection and what the dogs are being selected for. As long as folks are willing to sacrafice working ability for other attributes people will be breeding with a willingness to sacrafice working ability to give those buyers what they want. It really does not matter if there is a kennel club or anything else, it's people. Either way, if you breed for other attributes you will have some that come up short, just like if you breed for working ability you will have some that come up short, you will also have some cross overs, your just selecting for a higher percentage yield of the type of dog you want to produce.

 

The folks that purchased Dora were more interested in having a good pet for their kids then having her be a good working dog, the sad thing is they have work for a dog. Their expirence with working dogs from other breeders has been not good on the people/kids front. When they were here to see the pups they could not believe that Jake was willing to lay at their sides and be around the kids as the pups played, and that Bea was friendly and easy to be around. They were really sold when I flipped Jake's switch and sent him off to work, flipped it again and he was back to sucking up to the company while the stock he was just handling quietly grazed within 50 feet of us. Now they realize that they don't need to sacrafice and can have both, but also to get both they need to be willing to train.

 

Unfortunatly, too many breeders don't have a concept of what it takes to be a good working dog, how can they select when they don't understand what makes them tick? To top it off, there is not such thing as knowing it all, your always learning, tweaking, would like to see alittle more of this or a little less of that, oh look at that, that dog has something ours don't and it's really useful where does that trait come from? In reality isn't that the root of trialing, getting people together to test dogs, see what other breeders are producing, learning from each other and testing to see if they are on the right track based on a standard?

 

It's a lot easier to breed for color, speed, health through DNA testing or other tests, etc. Besides, people have been told that some of those things are more important, the easy things to breed for. I love it when you run across a buyer that says, "I want a dog that will not end up with HD, I'd like to trial or that can help out on the farm but if they don't work that is ok as long as they don't have HD". No different the buyer that wants an agility prospect, do they care if the dog works? So what is that buyer telling breeders, work is a bonus not the Holy Grail what are the breeders going to do, what ever it takes to sell their puppies and breed for the easier to achieve requirement.

 

Personally I think there are alot more issues then meets the eye, such as some people in society have forgotten how to teach/train or never have been taught themselves, they have forgotten that a dog is just a dog. They bite, they will obsess if allowed, they chase, bark and howl. We can't breed that out, well, change that I suppose we could but then what is left? Hmm, would there be anything useful left, heck they would not even be good sport dogs then, nope, not good at guarding, boy but they would be nice lap dogs that you can pet and say how "pretty".

 

Harnessing the nature of the dog is the owners responsibility, train the dog so that those traits are not a liability, it is the breeders responsibility to try to produce something that is trainable, whoops there another trait to factor in that is not an easy on to keep your thumb on.

 

For the most part Border Collies are still being bred with heighted reactions, those traits need to be harnessed through training, meaning that if they end up in a home that lacks boundries there is libel to be a wreck. Some people just naturally have boundries and expectations set up, they are self disciplined and just make working dog ownership look like a breeze. It's not that Border Collies don't make good pets, it more that they don't make good pets for people that should not have pets and think a dog should be preprogrammed out of the box to be the perfect pet. I also feel that Border Collies are great at making owners good trainers/teachers and listeners, but so are other breeds that still have traits that are being selected for heightened reactions.

 

Anyway, Planet Deb signing off!!

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Hey, the thinking deal, just some thoughts. The ability to multitask and factor things in, both agility and work dogs need to have that ability, in reality it's a biddablity trait. Just, with the working dog the dog, it is basing it's location on something that if always changing, not so much with the agility dog that dog is going to a specific place but is able to factor in and read the handlers body language to help find it's place, to me that difference is related to pressure sensitivity and response. The ability for the agility dog to be pushed out or brought back in by the handler and when they look to body position for their next obstacle (postition at a distance) is in tune with the working dog indexing their location as referenced by the stock or also knowing which direction to look for and take stock based on where and how the handler is positioned. So both disciplines can benefit from a dog that thinks, or rather responds to stimuli. I guess in my book, thinking is a form of response, just internal vs. external.

 

I hope I'm not muddying the waters, just trying to add a little different perspective.

 

Deb

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I'm going to try to respond to the OP. I've read everything and am kind of confused about exactly what the question is but since I'm definitely not a working home and have decided on a border collie for my next dog here goes....

 

If you are looking for a pet that you can take to social events, or to a dog park or to agility events - etc, etc, etc. Why on earth would you choose a border collie? Aren't there a million breeds out there that would fill those niches a whole lot better? If you like to jog five miles a day there must be 50 other breeds that could do that and be good in social situations at the same time.

 

I guess my question is why not? I know plenty BCs that do that just as well or better than other dogs. I want a bc because quite frankly I like them. I started getting interested in bcs 2 years ago when I started working in shelters. We get them in frequently for no other reason than the fact that they are bcs. I found that I took to the bcs a lot better than the other dogs. I can't explain why, I just 'get them' better. I am not on a farm remotely, I live in the suburbs and the dog will never see livestock. However, I know for sure I can provide those unwanted bcs with a better life than most pet people. I did not get into agility until after I'd decided a bc was in my future. I got into agility because one of my current dogs really needed that outlet. Agility has done a lot for our relationship and helped her gain confidence. It's just a bonus that the breed I love so happens to be the best at the sport I enjoy.

 

I also think many sports people are just the kind of home border collies thrive in. They do things with their dogs and enjoy an animal that loves the sport as much as they do. They are drawn to the breed imo because they are very dog centric people that value many attributes the border collie has. If they're like me, my life practically revolves around my dogs, so what better breed for that type of person than a border collie? Many agility people I know started agility because they had a border collie, not the other way around. Also, if you're involved in agility even to the small extent I am, you will be around a lot of border collies. I wanted one before I started but it has been further proof to me that I really do want a border collie and all they entail. Anyways, agility is a fun sport and I personally love to see people participating in it with their dog regardless of breed.

 

As far as bcs having more behavior problems than other breeds... I know several bcs with behavior problems but I can't say I haven't known dogs of other breeds with those same problems. I have had dogs with many problems mentioned on this thread and none have been bcs. You see these issues on all dog boards regardless of breed. I see them on the all breed board and the sheltie board. People come here for help and generally the people on these boards care a lot about their dogs' issues. I also talk more about my two 'dogs with problems' than my non problem dogs because there's just more to discuss.

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You know, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I've been on this forum for nearly a decade [ETA: oops, I guess it has been a decade] and I've never gotten the sense that the people on this forum look down on pet owners or consider them second-class citizens. In fact, over the years ISTM that most working dog folks bend over backward to make it clear that they don't consider pet owners second-class citizens. And yet, regularly someone comes along and cries the "I feel second rate because I don't work my dog on stock" cry. I think it's a cop out, personally. The people on this forum who work their dogs pretty much never tell pet owners that they shouldn't have border collies or take a "your poor dogs" tone with them (or anyone else). Those who do feel that way generally don't join in on the general discussions, so they certainly can't make anyone feel second class.

 

The OP on this thread is a newcomer to the forum and certainly not someone who works her dogs on stock. How could anything she says or implies bother you? She's a fellow PET owner!

 

The people who have brought up working dogs in this thread have done so in the context of asking the OP how she can take the stand that pet ownership, sports, etc., is bad for the breed when she herself is a pet owner. I don't see how that could be construed as insulting to all pet owners. It's simply folks pointing out the inconsistencies in someone else's thinking.

 

As Jodi said, for many of us who work our dogs, they are still pets. I don't have enough work on the farm to keep my working-age border collies busy all the time. So what do they do in their off time? They're pets! Several sleep on the bed with me. They all live in the house. I take them jogging and for long walks. We visit friends' farms and although we work stock on those visits, if there's a pond available I also bring my bucket of balls and everyone goes for a swim and a nice, long, muddy, messy game of "fetch the balls in the pond."

 

So, I'm sorry if you don't wish to post because you feel second rate, but to push that off on the rest of us is just wrong. And sorry if this is a bit strongly worded, but after all this time, I do get rather tired of this particular lament because I see no evidence that it's founded on any real truth.

 

J.

 

Wow did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? I'm entitled to my opinion. And regardless of what you say, it doesn't change how I've felt. I've gotten a lot of good information from these forums. I've never said that I didn't. I've actually gotten good information from you personally, and I respect the knowledge you have. Doesn't change the fact that I feel some of the posts I've read on here have also come with a look down their nose to those that are asking the questions. I realize that most of the folks on here feel that maintaining the working skills in these dogs is the priority. Good for you, but not everyone looks at it that way. It's a matter of opinion. But I've also seen how some new people come in here asking questions about a puppy they saw, and more often then not they receive the typical "Run do not walk away from that puppy" reply. As if they'll bring it home and it's just going to explode on them and become the anti-christ of puppies. I was going to get my first puppy from a woman who had border collies as pets and they had puppies. I don't even want to debate her perceived irresponsibility in allowing this to happen. As far as everyone on here was concerned it was the end of the world. This woman was the devil, her puppies were all going to be horrible monsters. Now I didn't get the puppy I looked at, but I'd be lying if I don't wonder what happened to him. Did he find a good home, or is he in a shelter/foster somewhere looking for a home. It wasn't his fault being born where he was, but I still feel these animals deserve a good home. To this day I cant help but feel bad about that. It's as if those dogs don't deserve a chance because they didn't come from working lines, or have the proper registration. And then people that might have been considering giving them a good home are scared off in the process. Perception is a powerful thing. You're already aware of my uneasiness with how people reply to others on here, yet you made it a point to put me in my place with your reply. Way to make me, or any others feel like we can voice our opinion on matters, or on how we feel without then being put down for it. Your reply may have had good intentions, but all it did was reinforce they way I've felt on here.

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So what is the difference between say a Hob Nob dog and a Jack Knox dog? Are they faster, structurally different, different temperments? What is there about the Hob Nob dogs that makes them so desirable to sports people? Or is part of it just marketing the name as a stand out sport dog?

 

I know if for some reason all I could do with my dogs from this day on, was sports, I'd go to Jack and Kathy in a New York minute. We have an Ettrick dog and his athleticism and his combination of team spirit and "go" is incredible. He'd been taught to jump fences on command and can still do it at over eight years old. Nearing nine years old, he's learning a whole new way to work sheep (with signs), and loving it. And they stand behind their breeding 100% - though it's not certain that Gus' hearing loss was genetic, the lines are culled. Jack took special care to place Gus (at the age of six) with someone he knew would treat him like family - though he's also still darned proud of the way Gus works! :rolleyes: And Gus can go back ANY time, for ANY reason, I know. And he'll get another home just like ours. All that without fancy contracts or co-ownership. Heck, I don't even have Gus' papers.

 

Gus comes from hard core working lines. But he's the most fun dog I've ever lived with. I've said so often that he's got a fantastic sense of humor. Regular walks, and knowing he's got a place here, are plenty for him, though he's always ready to help with chores. Gus is probably my ideal of a working bred dog. He can fit into any life, from total couch potato to 12 hour work days on stock. He can do it the same month, even.

 

He's got some faults as a stockdog but he would have been fine as an Open trial dog if it weren't for the hearing thing. He could probably still be trained to Ranch and to run in easy Open trials (short range, sheep and course not requiring a lot of "handler help").

 

He's not really that special, either. I know several retired couples who go to clinics, who have dogs who see sheep basically only at the clinics. I know one couple with an incredible imported dog, that spends all the rest of his time hanging out, and going for trail walks.

 

A well bred Border Collie can fit in anyhere.

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I was going to get my first puppy from a woman who had border collies as pets and they had puppies. I don't even want to debate her perceived irresponsibility in allowing this to happen. As far as everyone on here was concerned it was the end of the world. This woman was the devil, her puppies were all going to be horrible monsters. Now I didn't get the puppy I looked at, but I'd be lying if I don't wonder what happened to him. Did he find a good home, or is he in a shelter/foster somewhere looking for a home. It wasn't his fault being born where he was, but I still feel these animals deserve a good home. To this day I cant help but feel bad about that. It's as if those dogs don't deserve a chance because they didn't come from working lines, or have the proper registration.

Scotimus: the difference is that when you *buy* a dog that was bred only because it was a nice pet, you are supporting that kind of breeding. You are telling that breeder that breeding for those reasons (or lack thereof, actually) is OK. And it's not. The reason everyone on here likes BCs is because they have been selectively bred for many, many years for their working ability alone. So that's what makes them the way they are and capable of doing the things we like, whether that is working stock, sports, being a cool and fun companion, etc. That's the issue. So, once again, the chorus to the song is this (can we all sing along?):

 

Nobody gives a a rip what you do with your dog. Just don't breed it for any other reason than a very high level of stockworking ability. And do not support breeders who breed for anything else, either.

 

A

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I see "sheepdogs," too, when I go to that section and it can't be a cached version, since today is the first time I've visited that section. Looking forward to watching the videos. Unfortunately, I can't open them from my work computer (probably a good thing!), since video sites are blocked.

 

You all are right. And here I thought I was only blind on the trial field. The problem was a "too many cooks" one, with Heather setting the forum up while I was out of town, and not quite being on the same wavelength with me.

 

I just fixed it. Please tell me it's okay now.

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It is--I just pm'd you,

A

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Wow did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? I'm entitled to my opinion. And regardless of what you say, it doesn't change how I've felt. I've gotten a lot of good information from these forums. I've never said that I didn't. I've actually gotten good information from you personally, and I respect the knowledge you have. Doesn't change the fact that I feel some of the posts I've read on here have also come with a look down their nose to those that are asking the questions. I realize that most of the folks on here feel that maintaining the working skills in these dogs is the priority. Good for you, but not everyone looks at it that way. It's a matter of opinion. But I've also seen how some new people come in here asking questions about a puppy they saw, and more often then not they receive the typical "Run do not walk away from that puppy" reply. As if they'll bring it home and it's just going to explode on them and become the anti-christ of puppies. I was going to get my first puppy from a woman who had border collies as pets and they had puppies. I don't even want to debate her perceived irresponsibility in allowing this to happen. As far as everyone on here was concerned it was the end of the world. This woman was the devil, her puppies were all going to be horrible monsters. Now I didn't get the puppy I looked at, but I'd be lying if I don't wonder what happened to him. Did he find a good home, or is he in a shelter/foster somewhere looking for a home. It wasn't his fault being born where he was, but I still feel these animals deserve a good home. To this day I cant help but feel bad about that. It's as if those dogs don't deserve a chance because they didn't come from working lines, or have the proper registration. And then people that might have been considering giving them a good home are scared off in the process. Perception is a powerful thing. You're already aware of my uneasiness with how people reply to others on here, yet you made it a point to put me in my place with your reply. Way to make me, or any others feel like we can voice our opinion on matters, or on how we feel without then being put down for it. Your reply may have had good intentions, but all it did was reinforce they way I've felt on here.

 

Hi scotimus:

 

Did you read the WELCOME TO THE BC BOARDS: READ THIS FIRST post? If not, I think that you should, so that you might have a better understanding of what these boards are about.

 

It is not just most of the people on these boards that believe that maintaining the working ability of the border collie is a priority, my understanding is that it was the entire reason why these boards were created.

 

I am not trying to be harsh, because I realize that you think you and others are being attacked. I just think that you might be misunderstanding the purpose these boards are serving. Preserving the working ability is the philosophy here, and everything that Julie said is correct.

 

I certainly do not need to defend Julie, because she is highly capable of doing that herself, but she is an extremely knowledgeable and generous person, and a fantastic ambassador for the breed. Please try to understand what she is saying, rather than taking it defensively.

 

That said, after reading the "WELCOME" post, I hope that you choose to stay and participate in discussions.

 

Karrin

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The fact that the dog is thinking to achieve a different task in stockwork does not mean that the dog is not thinking when doing something unrelated. And even when working with the handler in any context, the dog is thinking.

 

Yes, the dog is "thinking" in a sense, but agility does not set the dog a task that requires him to do think to the degree that a working border collie must think. Not just "in the same way," but "to the same degree."

 

Look at it this way -- who is thinking more when you run a dog in agility, you or the dog? I would say that you are thinking more. You have to translate the course for the dog in a way that makes it clear to him what he should be doing. But you have already taught him THIS is how you have to exit a contact obstacle, THIS is how you have to enter a weave, THIS is what you have to do when I say "tunnel." The dog has to do the thinking necessary to understand your cues on the fly. But then he just has to perform the things you've taught him those cues mean, and it is his actions that are judged and determine his score.

 

The sheepdog also has to do the thinking necessary to understand his handler's commands on the fly, but he has to interpret those commands in a broader way. There is no one particular right move that goes with a particular cue -- the command "go left" can never tell the dog how wide left or how fast left or how far left with the precision that "tunnel" or "weave" can tell the dog the exact, previously-trained moves that he should make. The dog has to exercise judgment in making moves in a situation that will rarely be the same twice.

 

But even more important, the sheepdog is not just playing the role of the agility dog in understanding and executing cues, he is also and simultaneously playing the agility handler's role in giving commands to the animals he is running -- the sheep. His score does not depend directly on the moves he makes, it depends on the moves the sheep make. So a good sheepdog is actually trying to understand, through the commands he's given, not just the moves he should make, but also where you want the sheep to go and what you want them to do, and he has to think how to affect the sheep in order to bring that about. That's thinking of a pretty high order.

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