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Why did you choose a border collie?


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Okay. I take your point, Sue. A border collie is right in his element working stock.

 

So I guess that means the rest of us just have to work extra hard to keep our BC pets happy. And if we do work extra hard, as I think you seem to agree, we can also have content dogs.

So we went all around and about to find out we agree? Great! I'm all for agreement.

 

Well, with one addendum - not all Border Collies are interested in stock so some would not be in their element working stock. Hopefully good breeding minimizes the chances of dogs that have no stock sense or interest.

 

And, yes, I believe that as pets and companions, as performance dogs and active dogs, a smart and energetic dog like the Border Collie takes a bit more effort but is so worth it for those who wish to try.

 

End of discussion?

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I got my first bc because I wanted a good active dog to go hiking/swimming/camping with, etc. and a bc seemed the breed to be up for the task. I knew someone with a bc and the biggest trait I admired in this dog was loyalty. This dog would do ANYTHING for it's owner, this guy wanted to this or that and his bc was up for it, as long as he got to be with his owner. I had never seen a dog completetly ignore other dogs, people, it was just this man and his dog.

 

I have that and more with my border collie, he tries at anything I ask of him. We got into working stock and I have to admit after all the activities we have enjoyed there is no deeper satisfaction than working sheep with my dog all day, then seeing him sit by the gate wanting to go right back in. It's a different kind of satisfaction that my dog gets, you can see him beeming...in a serious way of course :rolleyes: He gets an extra gleam in his eye anyway. Thats not to say he didn't enjoy trying agility and obedience, like with the other bc he would try anything I asked. It was just different. Working stock has taken a WHOLE lot more study on my part! It has been by far the hardest thing I have ever tried to do, and I work at it constantly! But the rewards is worth it!

 

I belive somone else in this thread brought up that the bc's devotion was in a way it's pitfall and I would have to agree with this statement. There total loyalty to there handler, there drive and there "try" to do whatever we ask of them has contributed to there popluarity and success as agility/obedience/flyball whatever!!!!

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I like to compare the instincts for herding to musical or artistic talents in humans (both are genetically encoded behaviors). Can a human who has a very strong musical or artistic talent be happy not satisfying the desire to express themselves? Will these people be happier when they express these talents?

 

I think this in one of the best analogies that's been offered in this thread, and also gets to TCs original question. The problem with analogies is that I always want to take them further, which often makes them useless, but here I go...

 

Assuming stockwork would be analogous to a "creative outlet" for the hypotheical person here, the question then becomes, is that the only activity that fulfills such a creative desire? Or, is stockwork more like traditional painting, while agilty is like dealing in mixed media, etc. I feel like some of the arguments presented here, including perhaps my own, is that w/o an outlet for stock, then agility, flyball, or _____ can become the outlet for some of the same drives and abilities that have been genetically selected for. I like Kristine's point about willingness to work with humans closely. That is something that is bred-in AND contributes directly to stockwork, and would also contribute directly to, and benefit sports performance. So, are agility collies like the artist not allowed to practice ANY art, or are they more like the narural artist prevented from pursuing one form of art, only to find outlet in another media?

 

And where to draw such a line? Can my dog fulfill his "artistic desires" without our own farm and without real work to do, or could lessons/trials accomplish the same thing? In actuality, I am working towards the goal of actually having a farm someday, with stock and real jobs to do, but that is as much for my happiness as for my dog's. And I must, no matter what I argue, believe something of the hardline analogy here...my own feeling is that stockwork, especially now that I know Odin has the drive and ability, is going to be our thing, not agility. Because that feels right, while I don't personally care if he walks over an A-frame or not. Odin took to some things, including herding, very very naturally, but he has repeatedly shown me he actually would rather not walk over that A-frame, and I can keep the #$%^ treats, thanks! :rolleyes:

 

Great discussion!

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Something Danielle (chesneysSLUgirl) said just last night (paraphrased):

When Chesney gets home from a day doing SAR, he's really tired and sleeps. When he gets home from working sheep, he's like a crack addict that has just had his fix--he's somewhere beyond just plain physically tired and sleep.

 

I thought it was nicely put,

A

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Of my own personal dogs. My observations, my opinion based on my ability to read my dog's feelings. So take it for what it's worth. Seth is most definitely much happier when working stock. As a young dog (before working) I used to think he just acted unhappy. After he started working stock he looked and acted much happier. Now he's not working he never seems all that happy anymore. I made the mistake yesterday of saying a working term in relation to play and he looked around for sheep then looked at me, not happy. Meg was so obsessed with working sheep that after I sold my sheep she acted very lost for a long time. Not that she was that great a stockdog, but something in her pushed her to only think about working the sheep when she was outside. The other dogs would be playing here or there at something, even Seth who I worked the most. But Meg was always out watching the sheep. My two younger (not young) dogs are just as happy playing frisbee or running with each other. All have been worked extensively although some more than others. Of my dogs, Seth is different. Not just because he was my first Border Collie. Actually as a working dog he has given me way more grief than the others ever have. Seth has heart though. My other dogs, while they work sheep and do it well, just don't have that extra something that Seth has.

Kajarrel said

Like others, I'm not so sure that working dogs are happier, but what I've noticed (in about 30 years of owning working and non-working border collies) is that a working relationship is more "natural" than other relationships with my dogs. What I mean by this is that when you work (stock) with your dog, things fall into place - they seem to understand their relationship to you (and the stock), and you to them, and this makes other things easier (i.e., the working relationship is the foundation of the bigger dog-owner relationship). My non-working border collies are great dogs; but training and owning them has been different because I can't/don't tap that built in "understanding" and motivator.

Having been in various dog activities for many years, I never felt truly a working partership with a dog until I did stockwork. Things do fall into place.

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Something Danielle (chesneysSLUgirl) said just last night (paraphrased):

When Chesney gets home from a day doing SAR, he's really tired and sleeps. When he gets home from working sheep, he's like a crack addict that has just had his fix--he's somewhere beyond just plain physically tired and sleep.

 

I thought it was nicely put,

A

 

While I haven't really noticed that distinction with Kipp yet, I have when I work Missy on search problems around home. She loves it so I'll let her work them just for fun. They satisfy her need to do something and make her a happy dog. But I don't quite see the look of deep satisfaction afterward that I see after doing sheep chores.

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After reading this thread I am being to doubt I have border collies. Mine are all quite friendly, get along well with people and other dogs. Do not bounce off the walls. they aren't snarky. And basicly live for one thing. working sheep. If they are not working sheep they sleep. Yes sleep.

 

Sometimes I think that owners tend to think their border collies must have none stop hyped up exercise for hours on end to keep their dogs calm when in fact it just revs them up.

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Something Danielle (chesneysSLUgirl) said just last night (paraphrased):

When Chesney gets home from a day doing SAR, he's really tired and sleeps. When he gets home from working sheep, he's like a crack addict that has just had his fix--he's somewhere beyond just plain physically tired and sleep.

 

I thought it was nicely put,

A

We noticed that with Jake even when we took him for his eval. Jake never likes to sleep in the truck but driving back home that day he sacked out! AND we noticed he had more self confidence after getting home. I/we marked it up to him being worked mentally and physically at the same time while doing something that came naturally to him.

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I dont think BCs are for everyone, I believe that they need a bit more socialzation. working in a kennel I have noticed that many random pet people get BCs and they treat them they way they would treat the family pug. they keep them in the house, maybe the odd walk now and then and thats it. those BCs that have come to the kennel are all petrified wrecks, they are so terrified of the world that the larger area with a 1 acre feild completly overwhelms them, (I have run across only 1 breed worse then BCs for this behaviour and thats Dalmatians every last dal that has walked through our doors has been a nervous wreck.) then you see the others BCs that come in..the ones that people actually DO stuff with even if its just agility once a week, and the difference is not even comparable, they are some of the most happy, social, fearless dogs that walk through those doors. there is nothing unfair about keeping BCs for things other then stock work as long as you provide some kind of outlet I have found that they are in general very well and easily adusted dogs.

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Based upon your line of argument I surmise that you underestimate the power of selective breeding in "programming" these behaviors in dogs. Well bred working pups will instinctually go to balance without any training.

 

If you are right (and for all I know you are) that is truly incredible.

 

There's a video link in this post which shows a 12-week-old border collie puppy's first exposure to sheep. You might find it interesting to see how the pup, without being given any commands and with no previous training, first goes around the sheep and balances them to his handler, and then works at keeping them together and to his handler as the handler moves around, shifting the balance point and occasionally scattering them a bit.

 

Another series of video links in this post might also be of interest. They follow the training of a border collie from 8 months to 23 months of age, and I think illustrate how much of the training consists of setting up situations where the dog's instinctive abilities are called forth and honed as the dog learns what works and what doesn't, as opposed to the kind of training used in agility or obedience. Training a sheepdog is difficult -- they don't train themselves, however well-bred -- but the trainer is working with qualities in the dog that were bred into him/her through generations of selection for this specific work. Without those qualities, and the keen desire for this work that was also bred into them, training to the level these dogs achieve would be impossible.

 

ETA: As regards the happiness question, it should be noted that bad herding training -- where the dog is never allowed to cover his sheep, for example -- can lead to such a build-up of tension and frustration in a well-bred border collie that the dog is actually UNhappy when brought to sheep, and may show that unhappiness by reluctance, avoidance behavior, or seemingly trying not to see the sheep. This is the other side of the coin from the deep satisfaction and happiness that the dogs derive from actually working livestock.

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Sometimes I think that owners tend to think their border collies must have none stop hyped up exercise for hours on end to keep their dogs calm when in fact it just revs them up.

 

I stayed away from the breed because I thought they were always as intense and wanting to go as I saw at agility trials. It was only after I got to know some friend's wonderful Border Collies that I saw the other side of the coin. Quinn can be intense (about sheep, training, play, squirrels, etc.) and is always ready to go, but he is one of the easiest dogs to live with. Just a marvelous companion at home and happy, mellow guy when he accompanies me to work. I do think once in a while there are Border Collies who just aren't born with an ability to settle and relax, but thankfully I believe they are in the minority.

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There's a video link in this post which shows a 12-week-old border collie puppy's first exposure to sheep...Another series of video links in this post might also be of interest. They follow the training of a border collie from 8 months to 23 months of age,...

Thank you, Eileen, for creating this new section of the boards. That will be a great resource for folks to find and refind those helpful videos (and more to come, I'm hoping).

 

I'm assuming that videos of Border Collies working as cattledogs and not just sheepdogs are welcome, too! :rolleyes:

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I'm assuming that videos of Border Collies working as cattledogs and not just sheepdogs are welcome, too!

Thanks, Sue. I was thinking/hoping the same thing :rolleyes:

 

A

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Anna - Eileen said it was an oversight and it's being changed to "Border Collies". No matter what, we know those sheepdog people still love us cattledog girls and our dogs. Right? Even if we smell funny and don't have those baby soft knees and hands from all the lanolin - wait, you have sheep, too. No fair. You fit in anyway.

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:rolleyes:

 

Actually, the word "sheepdogs" was an inadvertent error recognized almost immediately, and changed to "border collies" within a few hours of the new video section's first going up. If you're still seeing "sheepdogs" in the description of the section, it's because your computer is using a cached version of that page.

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I see "sheepdogs," too, when I go to that section and it can't be a cached version, since today is the first time I've visited that section. Looking forward to watching the videos. Unfortunately, I can't open them from my work computer (probably a good thing!), since video sites are blocked.

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I don't know. I'm just throwing the question out. Is the sport big enough that it is really big business? Are the people who are really into this breeding border collies just for the sport and not worrying about the breed at all? I don't know. Is this sport a danger to the breed? Is it the cause of a whole lot of breeding by people who are just interested in getting a good sports dog? Is the end result of all this breeding a whole lot of poorly bred border collies ending up in rescue?

 

Hi Tommy.

The sport is becoming popular, but I'm not sure that sports breeding is a big business. A lot of people, including myself, are not willing to fork out that kind of money for a dog. Maybe those that compete somewhat professionaly would be more likely to buy from that sort of breeder, but these professional types of handlers are not that many. The majority of us are doing this as a weekend hobby.

 

There does seem to be a structure type per breed that makes the dog a better agility competitor. If the dog does not have the right structure, the dog is having to compensate in other ways, and in time this can cause injury.

 

I think that this structure needed for agility can be found in working lines, so there shouldn't be a need to go to sports breeders.

 

 

 

You mentioned that there should be a lot of other breeds that should be able to run, chase balls, do agility, etc. just as well. Actually, no. Statistically there is no other breed that does as well. Your only chance of beating a Border collie is competing in a jump height where there is no Border collies (statistically speaking).

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After reading this thread I am being to doubt I have border collies. Mine are all quite friendly, get along well with people and other dogs. Do not bounce off the walls. they aren't snarky. And basicly live for one thing. working sheep. If they are not working sheep they sleep. Yes sleep.

 

Sometimes I think that owners tend to think their border collies must have none stop hyped up exercise for hours on end to keep their dogs calm when in fact it just revs them up.

I was going to say that but was afraid everyone would go crazy. My dogs are fine at home. I put Tommy out four or five times a day and just let her run her little feet of in the back yard. She is a puppy and needs activity. Ellie could care less.

 

I think you can create a dog that needs to be busy all the time just by keeping it busy all of the time. People hear that border collies need to run five miles a day and have jobs to do, etc. And they try to make that kind of environment for them. Its like a self fulfilling thing. You create your own monster.

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A border collie is still a dog right? And dog's can be trained right? I dont see any problem with having a border collie as a pet. My two dont work sheep every day. They dont work sheep at all. They are with me. They walk with me, they are with me when I'm working in the yard. They go with me when I go to the neighbor's house. I have no issues at dog parks. Basically my point is that all border collies are not the same. This post is actually one of the reasons I dont post much on here. My dogs are pets, not working dogs. And I've always felt 2nd rate because of that. I come through and read posts all the time, but it's rare that I actually say anything, or even ask questions anymore. I always feel like I'm getting the whole "you mean your dogs dont work? Bad you. You're poor dogs" routine and so on. Sure I've had a few problems with them. Getting used to the leash, getting used to the crate, but it's all basic dog stuff. All dogs through this, and with proper training any border collie can be a great pet. Just my two cents. Thanks.

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Hi Tommy.

The sport is becoming popular, but I'm not sure that sports breeding is a big business. A lot of people, including myself, are not willing to fork out that kind of money for a dog. Maybe those that compete somewhat professionaly would be more likely to buy from that sort of breeder, but these professional types of handlers are not that many. The majority of us are doing this as a weekend hobby.

 

There does seem to be a structure type per breed that makes the dog a better agility competitor. If the dog does not have the right structure, the dog is having to compensate in other ways, and in time this can cause injury.

 

I think that this structure needed for agility can be found in working lines, so there shouldn't be a need to go to sports breeders.

You mentioned that there should be a lot of other breeds that should be able to run, chase balls, do agility, etc. just as well. Actually, no. Statistically there is no other breed that does as well. Your only chance of beating a Border collie is competing in a jump height where there is no Border collies (statistically speaking).

I'm just asking a question here because I don't know anything about agility. Are the dogs allowed to think or do they only do what they do on command? Like in obedience the dogs are not supposed to anticipate?

 

I ask that because the working dogs can think. They cover their sheep. I've seen them react to situations and cover their sheep before the handler even knows there is a problem out there. They can work completely out of site of the handler.

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And I've always felt 2nd rate because of that.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way, seriously. There is no reason to. I think it bears repeating ... the only time someone should be concerned whether or not a dog works livestock is if the dog is being considered for breeding. Period.

 

... with proper training any border collie can be a great pet. Just my two cents.

 

Your two cents and a lot of other people's too. We all love these dogs, and for most of us, these guys are pets first. If someone is trying to make you feel 2nd rate because your pets don't work livestock, tell them to get bent.

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