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Why did you choose a border collie?


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TC, I hope you won't mind me answering about your 'farm' It is the "Funny Farm" :rolleyes::D:D

 

Been away from the Computer for a day and missed alot. Catching up. I've had BC's since 1979 and at that time many were used as 'watch' dogs on the farm-at least in the States. Today I know probably as many/more farmers (the ones who actually make a living off farming) who use BC's as watch dogs, strongly discouraging any stock abilities in the dogs. So, at least in this part of the country they are used/have been used as watchdogs.

 

Additionally, 30 years ago it was difficult to find a BC, even working bred dogs. you first had to find a farmer with one. I remember showing my first BC in obedience and it was unusual, even in VA.

 

There were few training clinics (Louis Pence died about that time and Jack Knox immigrated). The majority of BC owners/trialers were farmers/ranchers. The sport trialers were the minority.

 

Things HAVE changed with the BC, the dogs have changed-not all for the bad, but definitely more problems as more people get these dogs without considering what a BC is. The farmer I got my first dog from bent his rule of having to have at least 5 acres before he would sell a dog when he saw the training I had done with our old mutt. In those days you did obedience if you got a BC and didn't have a farm, you didn't 'get' a BC to do obedience (substitute that with agility, flyball or whatever sport). If you bred, you bred to a working dog.

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In fact, I'm on "messed up" Border Collie #2. The issue is different, but it requires almost as much study, trial and error, and patience. It's frustrating, heartbreaking, and downright difficult. But we'll get there - wherever "there" turns out to be exactly. And I love him and wouldn't trade him for anything. I'm in it with him 100% for the rest of his life.

 

I've never adopted a purebred rescued Border Collie, so I could be way off base, but from what I've read on these boards it sounds like many of them are not "messed up" (some are) but rather just in need of a much more appropriate home than they were previously in. My rescued dogs have ranged from lots of issues that I had no idea how to address (I was 10 but he was still a fantastic dog) to about the best performance dog a person could ask for whose only issue was over-exuberance.

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I do believe that you are a great owner, so that is not at all what I meant. I was refering to the work vs. WORK argument that I read into the posts. One point that I thought you were trying to make was that border collies were bred to work, and issues arise when they are not worked. I think that you have stated numerous times that your collies are just companions. Nothing wrong with that- but it seems odd to me that you would be making such a strong case for the breed's "sole purpose". Maybe I was mistaken, and if so, I am sorry.

 

Also, I have a border collie rescue that struggles with issues, as well, so I absolutely understand what you are saying. But I think *any* dog with issues can be potentially hard to fix- not just BCs.

No, what I was trying to say, probably badly, was that not all working dogs are social. A lot of mine have been shy. They just do better in a familiar environment and don't do very well if you try and push them to be outgoing and out there in public.

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I have no problem with the question "what to do with the working bred pups that will not work - cull them, sport homes or pet homes?" That is a fair question. What I have trouble with is the assumption built into your first question that "pet home" = "do nothing" and "sport home" = "have a life." That is a question I would object to and direct a client not to answer, because it "assumes facts not in evidence." :rolleyes: Facts which could not be proven because they are not true.

 

In the material you quote here, I don't think the OP made any distinction between pet homes and sport homes, did he?

No I probably didn't but I do think there is a difference. I can't see where dogs in a pet home - as long as the owner is not a back yard breeder - do any harm to anyone.

 

But I can see where the idea of the "sports dog" could do a whole lot of damage to the border collie as a breed. Just because it seems to be so huge and so popular and "sports dogs" are being bred specifically to do well in that arena.

 

People say that the bought a working dog but what do they mean by that? Did they go out to the farm and meet the parents and watch the dogs actually work? Or does that mean that a breeder just told them that the dog is from working lines? Most border collies go back to working lines eventually but that doesn't mean they can work any more.

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No I probably didn't but I do think there is a difference. I can't see where dogs in a pet home - as long as the owner is not a back yard breeder - do any harm to anyone.

 

But I can see where the idea of the "sports dog" could do a whole lot of damage to the border collie as a breed. Just because it seems to be so huge and so popular and "sports dogs" are being bred specifically to do well in that arena.

 

People say that the bought a working dog but what do they mean by that? Did they go out to the farm and meet the parents and watch the dogs actually work? Or does that mean that a breeder just told them that the dog is from working lines? Most border collies go back to working lines eventually but that doesn't mean they can work any more.

 

 

Yes, Eileen, now she has made the distinction....I wish it wasn't hot, then I wouldn't be on the PC wasting bandwidth.

 

TC, when did breeding come into this conversation? You are changing your tune ONCE AGAIN. Now it's obvious that you know nothing about Agility or the people I spoke of. OK, do you want names, not happening, you may like to flaunt where your pet came from but it really doesn't matter, she's yours and she's simply a pet. How about a pup out of Scimgeours' Sweep? Yep, the owner not only saw both parents work she also works her dog on stock when she can. Crap, I forget, he's quite nice for the little she does with him. Oh and she has worked with Derek a couple of times....You may want to actually "speak" with the some agility people, quite a few are not as stupid as you seem to think. Talk about assuming facts not in evidence.......

 

Once again I will ask the question (they way Eileen likes it :rolleyes: ) "What do you do with the working bred pups that will not work" Do you cull them, place them in a sport home or place them in a pet home? And Why?

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But I can see where the idea of the "sports dog" could do a whole lot of damage to the border collie as a breed. Just because it seems to be so huge and so popular and "sports dogs" are being bred specifically to do well in that arena.

 

So do you think that those of us who are:

 

A ) Border Collie enthusiasts - love these dogs and really would not be content with any other type of dog

 

and

 

B ) Really into dog sports (Agility, etc)

 

. . . . should deliberately get dogs of other breeds to do sports with - even though we really wouldn't be content with those dogs - for the reason that you state above?

 

Let me be clear - I'm not being combatitive here and I'm not making assumptions and I'm not taking offense nor taking your position personally. The point of my very specific question is simply to better understand what you are trying to say. :rolleyes::D:D

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I am not reading all of it because I am not awake enough to follow it but....

 

I struggle with keeping mine away from any stranger because they will work and play with everyone. Children especially since they are just so easy to sucker into anything.

 

 

So what? Jin will do the same as do many other dogs. They like visiting with strangers and playing with them. You not going to lose them in anyway and it gives the dogs a chance to be friendly with other people. Letting my dogs play with others, people and dogs, is just as much a part of life as anything else is.

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Kristine,

I think I can answer your question because it's been answered in a gazillion other breeding threads here, and I'm sure TC would agree: No you don't need to get another breed with which to participate in sports if border collies are what you prefer. What you shouldn't do is support BREEDERS of sport dogs. But you probably already knew that answer.

 

J.

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I have border collies because I grew up with border collies and aussies that worked cattle. They weren't highly trained but they did their job and did it well given the circumstances. Non-herding breeds just aren't *dogs* for me :rolleyes:. I may like individuals of other breeds but the breeds as a whole aren't my thing. Among the herding breeds, I have a preference for border collies first followed by aussies and cattledogs. And I love a nice bc/aussie cross (I know that is horrific to many of you but my two dearest dogs were both workingbred - admittedly byb but bred to work stock - bc/aussie crosses). As a little kid working cattle, watching the dog come up unbidden and step between you and a rank cow or the bull was an awe-inspiring and respect inducing moment. I get a little choked up just thinking about it.

 

So that's why I have three biscuit eating border collie crosses now. Since I don't have a need for a working bred dog, I do rescue and these little mixed breed guys just happen to be the ones that have stolen my heart. I would love to have a nicely working bred pup at some point down the road because I think that is what these dogs should be bred for and I want to support that. However, having no real need for one and given the fact that it would probably only be exposed to livestock very occasionally, I will most likely wind up with another rescue.

 

Two of my three dogs have an interest in stock. Despite the fact that they are strictly pets I don't think they are distraught by the fact that they don't work stock. In fact, they have a very fulfilling life being full-time companions. Many well-bred border collies thrive on being full-time companions as well. I don't think they have to work stock, do agility or chase a ball constantly to be happy. Many of them just want to be with you, go for nice walks and ride alongside everywhere that you go. There is nothing wrong with that and I don't think these purely companion dogs feel unfulfilled as long as they are understood.

Lisa

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Kristine,

I think I can answer your question because it's been answered in a gazillion other breeding threads here, and I'm sure TC would agree: No you don't need to get another breed with which to participate in sports if border collies are what you prefer. What you shouldn't do is support BREEDERS of sport dogs. But you probably already knew that answer.

 

J.

 

Of course, I knew that and hold that position myself. :rolleyes: What I'm wondering is if that's really what TC is saying here. It seems like TC might be trying to make a different point altogether, but I can't quite tell.

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Kristine,

I think I can answer your question because it's been answered in a gazillion other breeding threads here, and I'm sure TC would agree: No you don't need to get another breed with which to participate in sports if border collies are what you prefer. What you shouldn't do is support BREEDERS of sport dogs. But you probably already knew that answer.

 

J.

 

I don't think that is what TC is saying at all Julie, from this part of her comments -

 

If you are looking for a pet that you can take to social events, or to a dog park or to agility events - etc, etc, etc. Why on earth would you choose a border collie? Aren't there a million breeds out there that would fill those niches a whole lot better? If you like to jog five miles a day there must be 50 other breeds that could do that and be good in social situations at the same time.

 

I feel sorry for so many people that post here. They get a border collie and then try to force it into a role that the dog was never meant to fill. Its like trying to put a round stick in a square hole. Of course you are going to have trouble. And you and the dog are both going to be miserable.

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So do you think that those of us who are:

 

A ) Border Collie enthusiasts - love these dogs and really would not be content with any other type of dog

 

and

 

B ) Really into dog sports (Agility, etc)

 

. . . . should deliberately get dogs of other breeds to do sports with - even though we really wouldn't be content with those dogs - for the reason that you state above?

 

Let me be clear - I'm not being combatitive here and I'm not making assumptions and I'm not taking offense nor taking your position personally. The point of my very specific question is simply to better understand what you are trying to say. :rolleyes::D:D

I don't know. I'm just throwing the question out. Is the sport big enough that it is really big business? Are the people who are really into this breeding border collies just for the sport and not worrying about the breed at all? I don't know. Is this sport a danger to the breed? Is it the cause of a whole lot of breeding by people who are just interested in getting a good sports dog? Is the end result of all this breeding a whole lot of poorly bred border collies ending up in rescue?

 

I have just had rescue dogs at home for the last 10 years. They weren't able to get out and do a lot of stuff because they had problems. So I got my puppy and started reading the boards again. I was just flabbergasted that sports dogs had become such a huge deal. When I used to be involved in stuff with my dogs agility was just something fun for people to do with their dogs. It was good exercise and people had a good time just getting together. Seems like it has gone way past that now.

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I don't think that is what TC is saying at all Julie, from this part of her comments -

I'm not really saying anything at all. I'm just playing with ideas. I could be dead wrong. It just seems like there are a lot of people here having trouble with their dogs. Part of that may just be that border collies aren't always the most social dogs. A lot of them can be very shy and they really don't do very well if they have to be out in public (away from home and around a lot of strangers). Some of them can be pretty snarky. And obviously from people's comments there are some that do just fine in crowds and with strangers.

 

If what you want is a dog that goes everywhere with you and really mixes it up then there are other breeds that would probably be better.

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All humans have different likes and dislikes, things they excel at and things that they're just not interested in. We don't all look alike. We don't all eat the same food. Some are outgoing and some are content to be alone. Some people were meant to be super athletes or performers. Others are more suited to less active, but just as important and fulfilling activities. Every person is unique, as is every dog. As for Border Collies who don't herd sheep, if they've never been introduced to a sheep, they don't know what they're missing and I doubt they lie awake at night dreaming of sheep and "what might have been." As long as they're being loved and cared for, given a suitable outlet that fits their personality, I believe they can be happy and well adjusted, even as "just a pet."

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Julie - I am not sure that's what TC is questioning here. It sounds more to me like, "Why do people get (from any source) a Border Collie that might not be suited to (insert here your choice of companion dog/performance dog) when they could simply get a dog of another breed that would be well suited to that life?"

 

To me, that's a strange question - a dog of any of many other breeds (as TC points out) could be well-suited to a life as a companion (active or less active) or as a performance dog (obedience, agility, whatever) but any particular individual of any breed might not be. They are all individuals and being a Lab doesn't guarantee a dog will be a bird dog or a bomb-proof family pet; being a Golden doesn't guarantee a dog will be suited to being an assistance dog; being a Border Collie doesn't guarantee a dog will be a stockdog or a willing participant in dog sports.

 

I have Border Collies for a purpose (cattle) but if that purpose were to end, I would still choose Border Collies for pets, for companions, for sport (if I chose to do that) - because they are my breed of choice. They have spoiled me from wanting any other particular breed (although there are individuals of other breeds that I enjoy very much and might like as a pet or companion or sport dog). If a particular dog that I obtained through rescue or purchase or any other means was to be ill-suited to something I wanted to do with it, I'd just have to adjust what I wanted to do to also suit the dog and its needs, and not just myself.

 

There are people who are ill-suited to having a Border Collie, either because they and/or their life and priorities are not compatible with an intelligent, energetic dog that needs mental and physical activity. But I know people who live in the depths of NYC that provide a great life for their Border Collies, and people on farms with livestock that provide nothing worthwhile or fulfilling for their Border Collie. It's not the situation, it's what a person is willing and able to put into a dog's life that makes it a suitable or beneficial life for the dog, Border Collie or other breed (or no breed at all).

 

And, by the way, if I could not provide a suitable environment for a Border Collie, I should not have one and hope I'd have the selflessness to make that choice.

 

I'm still not certain why the original question was posed at all, but I am grateful for some of the thoughtful and interesting responses.

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Julie - I am not sure that's what TC is questioning here. It sounds more to me like, "Why do people get (from any source) a Border Collie that might not be suited to (insert here your choice of companion dog/performance dog) when they could simply get a dog of another breed that would be well suited to that life?"

 

To me, that's a strange question - a dog of any of many other breeds (as TC points out) could be well-suited to a life as a companion (active or less active) or as a performance dog (obedience, agility, whatever) but any particular individual of any breed might not be. They are all individuals and being a Lab doesn't guarantee a dog will be a bird dog or a bomb-proof family pet; being a Golden doesn't guarantee a dog will be suited to being an assistance dog; being a Border Collie doesn't guarantee a dog will be a stockdog or a willing participant in dog sports.

 

I have Border Collies for a purpose (cattle) but if that purpose were to end, I would still choose Border Collies for pets, for companions, for sport (if I chose to do that) - because they are my breed of choice. They have spoiled me from wanting any other particular breed (although there are individuals of other breeds that I enjoy very much and might like as a pet or companion or sport dog). If a particular dog that I obtained through rescue or purchase or any other means was to be ill-suited to something I wanted to do with it, I'd just have to adjust what I wanted to do to also suit the dog and its needs, and not just myself.

 

There are people who are ill-suited to having a Border Collie, either because they and/or their life and priorities are not compatible with an intelligent, energetic dog that needs mental and physical activity. But I know people who live in the depths of NYC that provide a great life for their Border Collies, and people on farms with livestock that provide nothing worthwhile or fulfilling for their Border Collie. It's not the situation, it's what a person is willing and able to put into a dog's life that makes it a suitable or beneficial life for the dog, Border Collie or other breed (or no breed at all).

 

And, by the way, if I could not provide a suitable environment for a Border Collie, I should not have one and hope I'd have the selflessness to make that choice.

 

I'm still not certain why the original question was posed at all, but I am grateful for some of the thoughtful and interesting responses.

I'm not sure why I posted the original question either. Just playing with ideas.

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I'm not really saying anything at all. I'm just playing with ideas. I could be dead wrong. It just seems like there are a lot of people here having trouble with their dogs. Part of that may just be that border collies aren't always the most social dogs. A lot of them can be very shy and they really don't do very well if they have to be out in public (away from home and around a lot of strangers). Some of them can be pretty snarky. And obviously from people's comments there are some that do just fine in crowds and with strangers.

 

If what you want is a dog that goes everywhere with you and really mixes it up then there are other breeds that would probably be better.

 

 

RDM, Lenajo, .....where are you when you are needed.......If you are not really saying anything then why do you keep saying something different?

 

TC, do you even have a clue? You said yourself you have been out of it for the past 10 years. Have you been to a Sheepdog trial ever?? How many dogs there are on leads? How many are out running with their owner off leads? How many fights do you see? How many do you see running for cover or hiding? OMG, they are in a public place no less.

 

Could be the parts of the board you are reading are a small piece of the big picture. People come here and "ask for help" and to you that equates border collies aren't always the most social dogs and no one shoudl own them if they don't live on a farm and work stock....

 

Why is your pet home, no activity, no strangers, no pressure, better for a border collie than say an SAR or obedience or agility home? Have you ever heard of building confidence in a dog? I am beginning to think you are a troll that slid past originally.

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Tommy Coyote: your argument falls apart when you follow it through to its ultimate logical consequences.

 

According to the literature, the herding instinct is the hunting instinct without the kill. If your argument is that border collies are happier herding because that is what they have been bred for over hundreds of years, you invoke this unintended corollary: That the happiest dog is one that is hunting in the wild with a pack because that is what they have evolved to do over millions of years.

 

And I have seen borders on sheep farms in New Zealand that went bad and got a taste for blood and I can tell you that they are supremely happy and satisfied up until the point when it is necessary to destroy them.

 

Herding is a trained behavior that serves human ends. That the dogs enjoy it is purely incidental to the farmer. And it is no less alien to a dog's evolutionary purpose than chasing a tennis ball or weaving through cones.

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I don't know. I'm just throwing the question out. Is the sport big enough that it is really big business? Are the people who are really into this breeding border collies just for the sport and not worrying about the breed at all? I don't know. Is this sport a danger to the breed? Is it the cause of a whole lot of breeding by people who are just interested in getting a good sports dog? Is the end result of all this breeding a whole lot of poorly bred border collies ending up in rescue?

 

I think those are very different questions from the one you asked originally. I'm not trying to be difficult here, just trying to get the full picture.

 

Your original question:

 

If you are looking for a pet that you can take to social events, or to a dog park or to agility events - etc, etc, etc. Why on earth would you choose a border collie? Aren't there a million breeds out there that would fill those niches a whole lot better?

 

Regarding your recent question, there are sports folks who started with other breeds who deliberately get a Border Collie for sports. Many of these people go to sports breeders.

 

It makes sense, if you think about it. If I were looking for a Pointer to do hunting with, I would probably go to a breeder who hunts with his dogs. If I were looking for dog to work on a farm, I would probably go to another farm where the dogs work to get a dog.

 

So, for people who got into Agiltiy with another type of dog, saw how awesome the Border Collies run (and it's a fact - many of the Border Collies who run Agility are breathtaking to watch), and decided to get one are going to do the logical thing - find a breeder who does Agility with their dogs.

 

Most of these people really don't know anything about the difference between Border Collies bred from actively working parents for stockwork and Border Collies bred for sport. They just do what makes sense.

 

So, yes, there is quite a market for sport bred Border Collies out there. And some of them have very nice temperaments and some are nighmares and a lot fall somewhere in between.

 

On the other hand, there are many who got Border Collies for other reasons. They liked the breed, they had grown up with them, bought one on impulse, got one from a shelter, etc. And then they got into training and sports, etc. Most of us have Border Collies because we love them first and foremost and secondly, playing sports with them is extremely rewarding and enjoyable to both dog and handler.

 

I have just had rescue dogs at home for the last 10 years. They weren't able to get out and do a lot of stuff because they had problems. So I got my puppy and started reading the boards again. I was just flabbergasted that sports dogs had become such a huge deal. When I used to be involved in stuff with my dogs agility was just something fun for people to do with their dogs. It was good exercise and people had a good time just getting together. Seems like it has gone way past that now.

 

Yes, a lot of us are into Agility much more than it just being exercise and people having a good time together. That's still a part of it and for some people that's all it is.

 

But there are many of us who have a true passion for the sport, just as there are people with true passion for football, hockey, etc. And having a very well loved dog as part of the whole package takes the whole endeavour to a new level.

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TC,

If you haven't gone back and read the "Why?" thread to which Karen very kindly posted the link a page or two back, perhaps you should. Much of what you are bringing up here was discussed there and it might help you to clarify your thinking as well as answer some of the questions you've posed.

 

Okay, to make it easy for you, I'll repost the link: Why?

 

Here are a couple of threads on breeding: one on Breeding pets and another on sport breeders. If you would take the time to read these three threads I think you'd find a lot of answers to your questions, as these sorts of discussions have taken place on this forum many times before.

 

J.

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RDM, Lenajo, .....where are you when you are needed.......If you are not really saying anything then why do you keep saying something different?

 

TC, do you even have a clue? You said yourself you have been out of it for the past 10 years. Have you been to a Sheepdog trial ever?? How many dogs there are on leads? How many are out running with their owner off leads? How many fights do you see? How many do you see running for cover or hiding? OMG, they are in a public place no less.

 

Could be the parts of the board you are reading are a small piece of the big picture. People come here and "ask for help" and to you that equates border collies aren't always the most social dogs and no one shoudl own them if they don't live on a farm and work stock....

 

Why is your pet home, no activity, no strangers, no pressure, better for a border collie than say an SAR or obedience or agility home? Have you ever heard of building confidence in a dog? I am beginning to think you are a troll that slid past originally.

Do you never play with ideas? Do you never just run them around in your mind? I do that all of the time. Some times I discover that I am way off base. Sometimes I'm not. And sometimes I learn a lot that way.

 

I have always been around the working dogs - the trials, the clinics, the working people. They very seldom participate in things like agility competitions or flyball or obedience. I am very prejudiced that way and I would be the first to admit it. I can't participate in working trials or clinics because I am too old now. I cannot run across the fields and jump the fences like I used to. And I have to admit that I really miss that. I miss the dust and grit.

 

I can't imagine what evoked such a hostile response. If you think agility is wonderful that is your opinion and it is every bit as valid as mine.

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TC,

If you haven't gone back and read the "Why?" thread to which Karen very kindly posted the link a page or two back, perhaps you should. Much of what you are bringing up here was discussed there and it might help you to clarify your thinking as well as answer some of the questions you've posed.

 

Okay, to make it easy for you, I'll repost the link: Why?

 

Here are a couple of threads on breeding: one on Breeding pets and another on sport breeders. If you would take the time to read these three threads I think you'd find a lot of answers to your questions, as these sorts of discussions have taken place on this forum many times before.

 

J.

Its OK. I'll stop. I had no intention of causing people to be so riled up.

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I can't participate in working trials or clinics because I am too old now. I cannot run across the fields and jump the fences like I used to.

 

LMAO! I've seen tons of excuses, but I have to admit, even this one is new to me! I wasn't aware we were supposed to be hurdling fences! Damn, I'd better get in shape! I have a trial this weekend!

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