Why did you choose a border collie?

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Long story short, I got a bc as a bit of an accident. My roommate just had to have a dog. I knew I'd care for it 99% of the time, so she had to pick something I could live with and do something with. Just so happens we got a border collie cross. She has a bucket full of issues that come from a lot of possible reasons. Bad breeding, lack of socialization at a young age (not utd on shots and little interest in other dogs at all) and being attacked 3 times before she was a year old. I highly doubt that me doing anything different would have solved any of her problems. She's just a shy dog.

 

I belong to a couple of groups for reactive dogs and believe you me, there are TONS of dogs out there with problems....and border collies are on the bottom of the list. I also do not think that they are any harder to "fix" than any other breed of dog. Some problems are fixable and some will be manageable but the bottom line is that the amount of progress the dog makes depends on the amount of effort the owner is willing to invest. Me, I've invested a lot and I've gotten a lot back from my dog in return.

 

I definitely do not feel I am forcing my dog to do anything and I most certainly do not think she has issues because she's not a working dog. She would crumble under the pressure of working stock. She really likes using her brain, so I make her use it all the time. She's not overly active, so I don't make her run miles every day like some people think border collies need to do. My dog likes to work with me, so we do stuff together, no square peg, round hole here.

[Izzysdad]

I'll jump in here as well. I think I saw what border collies can do when I saw agility on ESPN or some such thing. That led me to research about the breed. I'm a very active person and I wanted a hiking companion and a dog with good genes. I also wanted a rescue and that's how I found Izzy. Her genes may be in question because she is a mix, and no one really knows where she came from but I love her to death and she has very strong herding instincts which can be annoying at times, but I give her all excercise she wants.

 

Tobey-I wanted to have two dogs eventually, but once I saw how Izzy loves every dog she comes across I decided she needed an older sibling and again wanted a rescue. Izzy and I were given many choices of BC's from the farm and she just as much as I chose Tobey. He's a goofy guy who loves everyone-and yes that means kids too-and is awesome with Izzy. He wouldn't know what to do with sheep if he saw them, so he'll have an awesome life with Izzy and myself and Katie.

 

There is nothing like the relationship you can have with a border collie. I think they bond stronger to their people than any other breed, they're super smart and they're happy doing just about anything active. Just because they were meant to herd sheep in the hinter-lands doesn't mean every BC will be able to do that. Why not give the ones that don't have that in them the best home possible? What's the alternative? Put them to sleep? Over my dead body.

 

Tim

[jdarling]

It's too bad the question wasn't posed in a more general manner. These topics so easily head the way of "Well, I (do X) with my dog," and "My dog ..." rather than talking about the breed as a whole and will include every dog under the sun that has even a hair of Border Collie in it (not that there's anything wrong with any of those dogs). I am not targeting anyone so please do go there. This is a potentially very interesting topic, but I doubt I will wade through 16 pages of dog-specific chat to get there.

[Freeman 101]

You're kidding about agility, right? Have you looked at the world teams, national championships, top players with"big" dogs? The vast majority of those dogs are Border Collies because they tend to be such fantastic athletes, hard workers, quick learners with tons of drive.

 

No kidding. Border collies seem to excel at almost every dog sport. We don't have to live on farms and work sheep with our dogs to be responsible Border collie owners.

[Cody & Duchess]

Hi- just back from a 3 hour hike with my goofy boy Cody - you should have seen him flying through the woods. A question came to mind..... I adopted a border collie because I thought they were a dog that people got because they were smart, then gave up because they realized they did not come fully programed. I thought I could make a difference for 2 dogs - I believe I have. Yes, they may not be working sheep - but what is your proposal? If the dog cannot be working the dog should they be put down? Surely not. I personally would never go get a puppy out of good working stock since I believe that dog should have every opportunity to meet its full potential. In the real world there are way to many dogs that are looking for a good home. I understand wanting to keep the BC to follow what it is bred for, but what do you want to do with the BC that is hoping to survive?

[Journey]

About that same time those same breeders got interested in pretty colors. They were paying big bucks for blue merles and red merles. Anything that was different. The breeding that was going on at that time was god awful.

 

And nothing has changed today regarding that - well, the price has changed, it's gone up a bazillion times. So what's your point?

 

Did all of this hurt the breed? In a huge way. Before that no one in the AKC was interested in the border collie at all. There weren't thousands of dogs in rescue because the only border collies you could even find were out on the farms and you actually had to know someone to even find one to buy.

 

As far the Border Collie being an "unknown" and "you couldn't find one unless you knew someone on a farm" I am not sure where you got that idea, it's not true at all. The big battle didn't come until 1993, long after your 1975 Obedience dogs. Yes, there were lots of dogs in rescue, percentage wise maybe not as many as today, but BYB and PM'ers were not as rampant either and I seriously doubt they worked their breeding stock. If you checked with Rescues I think you would find that it is NOT the sport homes that are turning dogs in, it's the PET homes due to unscrupulous breeders and ignorant buyers.

 

 

So now the new big thing is agility competition. They like the dogs because they are fast and bidable. Do you really think that those people care about their working ability? Do you really think they have a clue what good working ability even is? They see a dog showing eye and they think that's good enough. Come on.

 

Uh, Agility is NOT new, not by a long-shot. As far as "these people" I know quite a few that have very well bred working dogs, they do not compete in AKC and they are adamant about the "working ability" and where their pups come from, they know the "whole package" is what makes the breed the star it is. So, yes, they have more than a "clue". What would you have done with pups that can't work though? Do they go to "pet" homes and do nothing or go to sport homes and have a life so to speak or do you cull them? Still waiting on an answer to that question.

[Eileen Stein]

So now the new big thing is agility competition. They like the dogs because they are fast and bidable. Do you really think that those people care about their working ability? Do you really think they have a clue what good working ability even is? They see a dog showing eye and they think that's good enough. Come on.

 

You might want to know what you are talking about before you speak. You have probably seen agility on TV, maybe seen a few websites breeding BCs for agility - but have you ever actually immersed yourself in agility culture? Or are you generalizing from what you think might be right or from what you've heard from word of mouth?

 

I'm not sure what it is you are taking issue with in Tommy's quote. Surely you would agree that most people who "love agility" and pursue it at the highest levels and "immerse themselves in agility culture" want a dog who is fast and biddable? If you didn't care about "fast and biddable" when you chose to get your border collie, it seems to me you would be very much the exception among agility lovers, rather than the norm. And nothing you've said here contradicts the general statement that agility competitors don't care about their dogs' working ability or understand what good working ability is.

 

So I guess I'm not clear what you were disagreeing with in the quote. Or maybe you just wanted to make the point that you and your dogs do agility, and you are happy, and your dogs are happy?

[theshine]

TC, I think you are off base in your original post, I think you have the nature of these dogs as solitary creatures wrong. It seems like you've had alot of experiences with problem dogs, and I'm sorry to hear that, but that hasn't been my experience. Just look at the "bc's are too friendly" thread....so many of us have stable, friendly, well adjusted and well trained companions. A border collie fitting into family life is not at all like fitting a square peg into a round hole....didn't sheep farmers have families? other dogs? what about the images of the bc going down to the pub with his owner after a day of work? A dog that was freaked out by strange environments, kids, strangers, would certainly be less than ideal.

 

I agree that a border collie on sheep is a beautiful thing. I love seeing a dog in their element, and in a way you are preaching to the choir here...no one, or few, here thinks bc's should be bred for sports, colors, conformation...but it's a pretty huge leap of logic from "bc's should be bred for work" and "a bc not working is miserable and so is his owner"....

 

Please don't feel sorry for me and my dog because he cannot work sheep. He is curled up in a ball on the bed with my 10 year old son right now, watching a movie. He doesn't know that he was 5 hours from death at a suburban kill shelter, and he doesn't know that there is a whole world of sheep out there that he's missing out on either. He's just happy right now, with us, in the moment, and we're happy with him.

[Eileen Stein]

Uh, Agility is NOT new, not by a long-shot.

 

There was no competitive agility in the US prior to the mid to late 1980s, and it took awhile to gain momentum. AKC didn't start an agility program until the mid 1990s, when it became evident that agility was taking off (although nothing like as big as agility has become today). To some of us, that is relatively new -- certainly compared to sheepdog trials and obedience trials.

 

What would you have done with pups that can't work though? Do they go to "pet" homes and do nothing or go to sport homes and have a life so to speak or do you cull them? Still waiting on an answer to that question.

 

I am not the person this question was directed to, so I am not going to answer it, but I am going to strongly object to the form of the question. Your question presumes that only by going to a sport home can a dog "have a life," and that a dog who goes to a pet home will "do nothing." Both presumptions are demonstrably false.

[Journey]

There was no competitive agility in the US prior to the mid to late 1980s, and it took awhile to gain momentum. AKC didn't start an agility program until the mid 1990s. To some of us, that is relatively new -- certainly compared to sheepdog trials and obedience trials.

 

Agreed, though I thought I made it somewhat clear that I was not speaking of AKC.

 

I am not the person this question was directed to, so I am not going to answer it, but I am going to strongly object to the form of the question. Your question presumes that only by going to a sport home can a dog "have a life," and that a dog who goes to a pet home will "do nothing." Both presumptions are demonstrably false.

 

 

But both presumptions could be true as well, especially when you really look into the rescues and see what type of homes the dogs turned in came from, pet homes. TC's OP below is off base imo - the first part deals with bad breeders and or poor owners, and to pigeon hole the breed as was said in the 3rd and 4th paragraph, makes me ask the question as to what to do with the working bred pups that will not work - cull them, sport homes or pet homes? Why is a pet home not pigeon holing them just as the OP did with sport homes?

 

I read a lot of these threads and its the same problem over and over again. Trying to deal with a dog with a not great temperment. Dog doesn't do well with other dogs at the dog park. Dog doesn't do well with strangers. Dog doesn't do well with kids. Dog gets freaked out in strange environments.

 

Border collies came from isolated environments. They had a purpose on those farms. They worked the sheep and they were guard dogs. And they were companions to shepherds who spent a whole lot of time all alone up in the hills. They are very good at all of those things.

 

If you are looking for a pet that you can take to social events, or to a dog park or to agility events - etc, etc, etc. Why on earth would you choose a border collie? Aren't there a million breeds out there that would fill those niches a whole lot better? If you like to jog five miles a day there must be 50 other breeds that could do that and be good in social situations at the same time.

 

I feel sorry for so many people that post here. They get a border collie and then try to force it into a role that the dog was never meant to fill. Its like trying to put a round stick in a square hole. Of course you are going to have trouble. And you and the dog are both going to be miserable.

[Eileen Stein]

I have no problem with the question "what to do with the working bred pups that will not work - cull them, sport homes or pet homes?" That is a fair question. What I have trouble with is the assumption built into your first question that "pet home" = "do nothing" and "sport home" = "have a life." That is a question I would object to and direct a client not to answer, because it "assumes facts not in evidence." Facts which could not be proven because they are not true.

 

In the material you quote here, I don't think the OP made any distinction between pet homes and sport homes, did he?

[Journey]

I have no problem with the question "what to do with the working bred pups that will not work - cull them, sport homes or pet homes?" That is a fair question. What I have trouble with is the assumption built into your first question that "pet home" = "do nothing" and "sport home" = "have a life." That is a question I would object to and direct a client not to answer, because it "assumes facts not in evidence." Facts which could not be proven because they are not true.

 

Fair enough, I see what you are saying now.

 

In the material you quote here, I don't think the OP made any distinction between pet homes and sport homes, did he?

 

If you are looking for a pet that you can take to social events, or to a dog park or to agility events - etc, etc, etc. Why on earth would you choose a border collie? Aren't there a million breeds out there that would fill those niches a whole lot better? If you like to jog five miles a day there must be 50 other breeds that could do that and be good in social situations at the same time.

 

The way I read this paragraph, yes, the OP did make a distinction. IMO a "truly pet home" doesn't do any of the above. Dog People, not sure how to define it, but you know what I mean , "do" things with their "pets". And my take of the OP was the breed should not be doing anything other than stock work.

[Izzysdad]

It's funny to me as I read this because I have to idiots running around here treating a pinecone like it's the ark of the covenant. I'm pretty sure they don't need sheep....hahahahaha

[Shetlander]

I have to idiots running around here treating a pinecone like it's the ark of the covenant.

 

[Sue R]

I thought that was hysterical, also! I can just picture it in my mind (or in my backyard) and, yes, my dogs do work stock, as well.

 

I haven't bothered to read much of this thread but it reminds me again to consider that many posts are requests for assistance, on any board, and not necessarily a sign of a prevalent problem.

[mbc1963]

I went down to the shelter and saw a pretty smallish dog who was very scared and unwilling to leave the confines of his kennel to meet and greet at the outdoor pens. Obviously, we see ourselves in the dogs we choose - I was a shy, nervous kid. So the dog came home with me. Wasn't looking for a BC or any breed, just a dog. And boy, did he come home with issues. (There's a reason he wouldn't come out of his kennel!) But, with my quiet, reserved home and lots of free time, I was able to work with him and now he's kind of normal-acting.

 

Didn't know he was a BC till 3 weeks in. In fact, didn't know BCs came this small or this tri-colored.

 

Sure as heck don't think I'm doing him any disservice by providing what is merely a pet home to him. He doesn't seem to have any desire to work sheep or cattle, nor any desire to do agility. One good forest walk a day, plus a second around the neighborhood, and he's content to lounge about the rest of the time.

 

Had I picked any other dog with a similar history and issues, I'd have walked the same path. The breed he happened to be doesn't have much to do with how we've worked out, I don't think.

 

Mary

[Eileen Stein]

If you are looking for a pet that you can take to social events, or to a dog park or to agility events - etc, etc, etc. Why on earth would you choose a border collie? Aren't there a million breeds out there that would fill those niches a whole lot better? If you like to jog five miles a day there must be 50 other breeds that could do that and be good in social situations at the same time.

 

The way I read this paragraph, yes, the OP did make a distinction. IMO a "truly pet home" doesn't do any of the above. Dog People, not sure how to define it, but you know what I mean , "do" things with their "pets".

 

I guess you and I have very different ideas of what a truly pet home is, if you don't think pet owners take their dogs to social events or to a dog park, or jog with them. I read it as talking about pet homes (especially in view of the word I put in boldface) at least as much as sport homes. There are tons of things to do with a dog besides enter them in formal competitions, and I notice that countless pet owners on these Boards do lots of those things with their dogs. A pet owner can be just as "dog-centered" as an agility competitor, IMO.

 

And my take of the OP was the breed should not be doing anything other than stock work.

 

I can see where you got that interpretation, and you may be right. I thought it was more along the lines of wondering why so many people choose a dog whose unique, defining ability is one that they never intend to take advantage of. But of course I agree with you -- as I said earlier and have said often -- that border collies can be wonderful dogs for suitable non-working homes where they are understood and appreciated.

[desertranger]

Same here. I think I would have wound up with BCs in any event. Learning about them, their habits, personalities and what you can do with them as a partner and friend has been a major life experience; and I'm still learning. I now think that Jin is the smartest of all the BC's I've ever had including Glyniss who was an outstanding obedience trials champ.

 

As for what a BC can do or what you need to do to keep them busy certainly is not limited to running in a field chasing sheep or cattle or any other kind of herding. Fuzzer, Surra and Bas all worked in search and rescue as I've said. Fuzzer was also an outstanding rock climber. Surra was just working dog I used in industrial work and out camping for hauling gear and drayage. Surra and Glynnis together they could pull a sizable wagon or cart loaded with about 100lbs of gear over fairly rough terrain. Bas was very laid back he liked boats, camping, hide and seek, and water. Some of them had bad habits and over the years I learned to deal with them through becoming a better trainer. Each unique, his or her own dog.

 

Then I read a thread like this one or something similar. Why/How a Border Collie? I think it has always been the same answer. Intelligence and a Type 'A' personality. A dog suitable for me. Those of you contemplating a BC or who have one and are wondering is this dog right for me or am I in over my head are now realizing that BCs are a commitment like a marriage or better yet raising kids. I've often thought I was a better dog owner and trainer than a parent.

 

However for many of you this dog is wrong and when you become aware of it you contemplate re-homing your dog. I've never even considered that. I wold never re-home a dog except under the most extreme circumstances and then it would have to be for the benefit of the dog.

 

I've made the commitment that means when something goes wrong I have to find out what it is then go back and correct or retrain the behavior, often it's me. Someone in a thread said on a BC forum, "I was stupid and did a stupid thing. I'm afraid I messed up my dog.". We all have done stupid things with our dogs or had incidences that screwed us up. Too bad. You have a BC and have made the commitment.

 

My signature says it all. I've made that commitment.

[Maralynn]

I believe that for most (not all) well-bred border collies, working stock is meaningful to them in a way that no other activity is. Its demands mesh fully and perfectly with their skills and talents, and that is very satisfying and fulfilling. However, I don't believe dogs pine for stockwork, and I know they can lead very happy lives despite never seeing a sheep or cow because I have seen that happiness so many times. If I could turn back the clock to the days when border collies were used almost exclusively for stockwork, and the relatively few who were owned for sport or as pets were working-bred dogs actively sought out by their owners for their working-bred qualities, I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

I agree with this 100%.

 

My older dog especially seems deeply contented and satisfied after sheep work and I love doing chores with her and seeing her "ahh, that was good" look afterwards. But my dogs don't miss it when it's not there and they also are happy and satisfied when doing another activity that requires physical and mental ability. I think in general working bred BCs should be able to excel at just about any dog activity and will enjoy it because they are so versatile. I will always have BCs because I have come to deeply appreciate their intelligence, their desire to work with you, their desire to please.

 

What I do find a bit puzzling is the way the OP seems to flip flop on the issue. Over the past several months there have been threads she has started that she doesn't think she is doing the best by her dog because her dog doesn't have a job/living up to her potential, to the recent one where she is ready to get another and that well bred BCs don't need to be busy doing something to be happy, to this current one. Even in this thread she has said that she likes to buy the best working bred dog she can find for a pet, but also wonders why people try to take BCs out of their natural environment and turn them into something other than a sheepdog. Forgive me if I'm missing something, but it doesn't quite make sense to me. After all those threads, I'm not quite sure what the point she is trying make with this one is.

[Root Beer]

And my experience has been that once a border collie is messed up it is really hard to fix them.

 

I've spent the better part of the last 8 years doing just that - working to rehabilitate a "messed up" Border Collie.

 

It was a ton of work. It required study, trial and error, and more patience than I ever thought I could have. It was frustrating, heartbreaking, and downright difficult.

 

And it has been one of the most fulfilling experiences of my life.

 

Just this past weekend I enjoyed a Freestyle competition with him and it was just an amazing joy to watch him be normal. I would do it all over again in a heartbeat to get him to the place that he's at now.

 

In fact, I'm on "messed up" Border Collie #2. The issue is different, but it requires almost as much study, trial and error, and patience. It's frustrating, heartbreaking, and downright difficult. But we'll get there - wherever "there" turns out to be exactly. And I love him and wouldn't trade him for anything. I'm in it with him 100% for the rest of his life.

 

I'm not saying that everyone should go out and get a messed up Border Collie. I'm not saying it's easy. And it's not for everyone.

 

I'm one of those unthinkable people who got a Border Collie puppy on impulse, knowing nothing about the breed. And he was messed up mentally and I had no clue how to help him. But it worked for me. I love my mutts a lot, but I'd never consider a dog of a different breed because Border Collies fit me.

 

My Border Collies are happy dogs. They are fulfilled.

 

Once upon a time, I thought they needed to take herding lessons to be fulfilled. They both enjoyed it, but I came to realize that they enjoyed the other things that we do together - Freestyle, Agility, etc. just as much. Had I not truly seen that for myself with my own eyes, I would have paid someone to work them. But it was very clear and I had no qualms about doing the things that I prefer with them.

 

Neither of them is lacking anything, nor will my future Border Collies, who will also be pet dogs/sport dogs.

[Journey]

What I do find a bit puzzling is the way the OP seems to flip flop on the issue. Over the past several months there have been threads she has started that she doesn't think she is doing the best by her dog because her dog doesn't have a job/living up to her potential, to the recent one where she is ready to get another and that well bred BCs don't need to be busy doing something to be happy, to this current one. Even in this thread she has said that she likes to buy the best working bred dog she can find for a pet, but also wonders why people try to take BCs out of their natural environment and turn them into something other than a sheepdog. Forgive me if I'm missing something, but it doesn't quite make sense to me. After all those threads, I'm not quite sure what the point she is trying make with this one is.

 

 

Oh, thank you!! And here I thought I had been transported to Planet Debbie alone

[G. Festerling]

I am not reading all of it because I am not awake enough to follow it but....

 

I struggle with keeping mine away from any stranger because they will work and play with everyone. Children especially since they are just so easy to sucker into anything. They drive me insane trying to stay a step ahead of them and upping my skills because I darn sure am not going to be outdone by my dogs. And when I get down they make me realize that truly I am not all that important with their silly antics and pure love of life. Puts life back into perspective. And I am sure there are other breeds that could do that as well. But the BC was my first love and always will be. They simply suit me.

All of my dogs just want a purpose. What it is, matters nothing to them. Two of mine will simply ignore anything for sheep. My old gal cares nothing about them but give her a cow or a frisbee, we are golden. A ball will get all of them. As long as they get my undivided attention they will even jump over jumps. That willingness and intelligence that they display is what I so adore in the breed that I met 20 years ago.

 

PS: Edit to point out that I am being sarcastic ( my dogs LOVE people and I struggle was choosen because mine are not fearful or aggressive. So I struggle as in keeping them under control so that others don't get accosted!) Again, I was being sarcastic as none of my dogs exhibit the behavior (nor would it be tolerated) described in the original post!

[Debbie Meier]

Oh, thank you!! And here I thought I had been transported to Planet Debbie alone

 

Huh...do I have visitors??

[flyer]

Why a border collie?

 

Because I fell in love with them at first meeting. I was reluctant because of all the bad tales and because of what I had read here about why and how they should be bred. We live in the burbs. We wanted a pet to fill the void left by our last dog, a BC x. Very big shoes to fill. My husband, son and daughter pushed me to go see a litter of BC pups. I met the breeder's dogs and was absolutely smitten. I loved the way they looked at me, the intelligence in their eyes. I loved the exuberance they exhibited for play, their extreme athleticism. I loved their gentleness and the way they felt to be around and yes, I loved how they looked, so elegant and sleek. I couldn't imagine getting any other dog.

 

Even though I had read tons on this board and respected the whole only proven working dogs should be bred or purchased I did not go that route. We had this personal contact from my husband's work and she had a litter from a working lines bitch she had purchased from a rancher who trials successfully. The sire she had bred from a national agility champion who was from working lines. I figured that was close enough.

 

It wasn't until I had Colt awhile, he is a little over seven months, that I actually "got it". Why everyone is so protective of the breed and how they are bred. Until one has a border collie, I don't think one can imagine how different they are from other dogs. At least I couldn't and I've had numerous dogs throughout my life. Good, intelligent, highly biddable dogs.

 

Colt is a "passionate" dog. Everything he does he does with keen intensity. There is nothing half way with this border collie. He is acutely intelligent, remarkably biddable, super loving, very serious and yet hysterically funny. Will do anything to make me laugh. If this sensitivity and deep desire for partnership is a result of the working lines which he is from, though I know not in the way it should be, neither sire nor dam were proven themselves, I see how important it is to breed for the right things, which Colt was not. It remains to be seen if he has any talent for herding. We're about to find out. Guess we'll see if I have any talent for herding as well.

 

I am very grateful to those who fought the AKC and who continue to educate and provide wonderful examples of the true border collie in the field.

 

[Lizmo]

Tommy, I assume from your original post, that your border collies work on your farm? I cold be wrong, I haven't read through the whole thread. Just skimmed over.