shanty Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 I haven't been on the boards long but I learned enough to know I made a stupid, STUPID mistake with Truman. I'm posting because it's good to see others mistakes and learn from them and because I'm still quite upset at myself. I've been working on Truman's issues at the dog park and concluded that he needs more confidence in playing with dogs to handle the stress invoked in a dog park visit. After some comments I even debated whether the dog park was a good place for him at all so I've been taking him off leash to fields and trails instead with no incidents. However, on the weekend we had to go away and I thought he would do well with a particular dog walker who also boarded in her home. He had walked with her once before and she was open to dealing with his issues by pairing him with a female playmate since he typically is fine with them. Her own dog is a female as well. Sadly, today when I got home I learned he bit her dog on the muzzle dangerously near the eye - having a grip on her, not a bite and release. This was apparently over the possession of her dog's bed which he guarded with bared teeth from the walker after the injured dog was taken from the room. He was labled 'food aggressive' by a friend of hers who's a trainer and owns several bc's. He also bit the walker on the arm during some incident dealing with feeding I think. She was not angry, thankfully, and knew he was stressed and even said that as soon as his 'challenge' was over he'd be fine with the other dogs. He also was mounting them all and was labelled a 'bully', 'dominant' and 'high energy'. I'm sad - very sad - that this has happened. I really hoped the extra socialization would do him good as he's only been a sweetie with people, loves other dogs and wants to be with them despite the fact that he doesn't seem to know how to play. From the advice she got from her friend who she asked to analyze him, it would seem even my attempt at dog agility backfired. He said it makes them over-focused and intensifies their issues or something. Truman never was food aggressive before - in fact he never cared much for treats and we didn't train him with them - but he was nervous of dogs in the agility class and the instructor would only train with treats, so I see a connection. Before that there was nothing - even other dogs have eaten from his bowls in his house. I'm worried about whether he's safe with children now, even though that has NEVER been an issue before. I feel we've crossed a very dangerous line. My options for socializing and off leash playing seem to be ever dwindling. He has never challenged a person before over an item, chair, food or anything, although he's been nervous of some, so this is the biggest surprise. I know I pushed him too far - but now what? Where do I go from here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanty Posted July 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 ADD: In an effort to make up for my mistake I found a post about an exercise that helps dogs that show difficulty handling excited or stressful emotions, like I imagaine Truman was suffering from with the stress of a new environment and the excitement of having dogs to play with. I had done this with him before, but didn't stick with it despite initial progress. I don't know why I forgot about this. I still do the 'eyes' exercise if anyone reads the links in the post and I've found it very helpful with getting eye contact in situations where he used to avoid it (outside when interested in other things mostly). The first exercise is called 'pushing' which involves feeding by hand and pulling it gently away while he has to push against my other hand which is on his chest. The first time I tried it (awhile ago) he'd just give up as soon as he felt pressure. Same as the tugging -the second exercise- which is to play tug and let him win every time - gradually increasing the pull before letting go - but not letting him get to the point of growling which says its building too much excitment too fast. Initially as soon as I pulled on the toy he'd let go. Originally when we got him we decided 'no tug games'. While this is great for training around kids and he's good about dropping items on command it may show why he feels threatened when dogs take his toy, stare at his stick or growl when he approaches - he doesn't know how to keep what's 'his' and knows dogs don't 'ask' like his people do. Similar to the comments I got in the past that he may not like dogs that aren't 'polite' in his mind. This fellow suggests the reason for attack is actually a social attraction - Truman WANTS to play - but that the conflict of emotions (perhaps fear they'll take something) causes the aggressive attack. If the dog didn't have social attraction he'd likely walk away or even run. This makes a bit of sense as Truman often will play with, or in this case, act as if nothing is wrong after the attack. He always wants to meet dogs and is fine on leash. Here's the link: http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.com/...g-upstream.html I have to say, I've read much of his stuff and like the depth of the info. I'll start with this and see where I go. Despite the previous analysis I'm still sure this is not a dominance issue so much as a conflict/anxiety issue along with the need to learn how to properly play with other dogs. I'd like your thoughts, sorry for the ramble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 You just pushed him to far. While you were away he was in a stressful situation with too much happening which obviously pushed him over his threshold. Too much, too fast, too soon. It does happen, been there myself with my reactive one. Have you read controlled unleashed? For instance at his agility class you may need just to teach him to relax on a mat and watch. Reward him for being relaxed. You should always be working him under threshold and over time raise the bar as he adjusts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Hi, My sympathies! I also have a dog-reactive dog who's also not too thrilled with strange humans messing with him. Sounds like it was your dogsitter and her friend the trainer - not you - who pushed the dog past his limits. I've run into "trainers" several times who've made precisely the wrong choices about dealing with my dog. By wrong choices, I mean expecting him to react like any normal dog when pushed above his threshold. For example, I had Buddy in the woods last year, and was approached by two women with a whole pool of dogs: six or seven small dogs and one large dog, all off leash. When I called out, "My dog's not friendly," (my shortcut warning to avoid explaining his reactivity), the "trainer" replied, "I'm a trainer. Just let him off leash and let the dogs pass." Meanwhile, her swarm of dogs puddled around Buddy and me, and two of them were barking and growling, fur up. I kept Buddy on the leash for the safety of the small dogs, and as the women got closer, was again given advice by the trainer - something about how everything would be fine if I let my dog go. I said, "He might pin one of your dogs." She said, "Really?!" as if she'd never heard such a thing! Gradually, she passsed by, but the two growling, barking dogs hung back, facing us, and still aggressively "taking us on." I had to keep an eye on them until I was sure they were out of range. I remember thinking, "Wow, if you really are a trainer, you should be able to control that pack of dogs, and they sure as hell shouldn't be allowed to roam as a pack if they're going to approach strange dogs, growling and barking with their fur up." Had I released Buddy and allowed him to be his normal self, he likely would have tried to drive the dogs off by snarling and snapping at them. Then I would have been in the middle of Buddy vs. a pack of dogs - none of whom I knew, and none of whose reactions I could predict with any certainty. I firmly believe that until a trainer has lived with or has long experience with a reactive dog, she doesn't know how to make the right decisions to manage one. And maybe even more specifically: until a trainer has worked with an individual dog, she can't know how far is too far to push to avoid going over threshold. The trainer in my example was working on some theory, I'm sure - dominance? Cesar? - but the theory wasn't applicable to my dog's situation. Her lack of experience created trouble for me, and though it all worked out fine, I'm sure she'll bump into a situation where it doesn't work out fine, and she has to rethink her methods. For my dog, if I do ever leave him in the care of someone, it will have to be someone who's walked with us specifically for the purpose of seeing how I manage Buddy. I wouldn't trust him to be walked or fed with a group of strange dogs. He could be trained to succeed at those tasks - he eats with my sister's dog, and walks just fine with dozens of dogs - but he has to be carefully and slowly desensitized to those specific companions. New dog or new situation, new beginning. Early on, I had some big surprises where Buddy reacted (for example, by pinning another dog), and I felt terrible afterwards. But I tried to learn to look at these experiences as lessons for me. Buddy hadn't changed at all; I'd just become more aware of his specific triggers and threshold, and I was then better able to manage him. Since he's an only dog, it's really not difficult at all to keep him out of situations where he might be food or resource aggressive. If I were planning on adopting another dog, I would try to work through those issues, but there simply aren't any triggers in our everyday lives now, so I just manage things when we are in unusual (multidog) situations. Don't feel badly! Just be aware of these issues the next time you need to board your dog. I'm sure there are lots of places where they'll be happy to feed him and walk him individually. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanty Posted July 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Thank you for your responses. My growth comes in that I'm not blaming him this time for being 'bad' as I previously felt when he acted up at the dog park or with the lady who kept him a year ago. He always seems to come back messed up from boarding, I will certainly apply the advice to only leave him with people who know my handling or dogs he already is desensitized to. I tried to get as much information about the situation so I can be better aware of his personal tolerance levels but I regret that it may have damaged him as he, and perhaps many of the BCs, seem very impressionable. I was told he was a 'good dog who did a bad thing' and that both the trainer and walker could see he was well trained. That's nice to hear. When he returned home she tested his reaction to her handling his food bowls and bedding - their was no sign of aggression (growling or teeth baring), just a worried look which is completely understandable. He feels safe at home. Even his nervous panting that she pointed out disappeared after she left. I anticipate that he will continue to be very stressed meeting new dogs, and can now add stressed eating with them, so I'll have to be more cautious where he stays. As for the 'pushing' exercise I tried this morning again - he will not push against my hand to eat so he clearly doesn't feel confident or able to handle the conflicting emotions, but he eventually ate with my hand placed on him and stood up which is good. Last night he just laid down and turned his head away - he would mostly just eat what fell out of my hand and very reluctantly ate out of my hand in the end by pushing the food onto the floor first. I think he thought he was in trouble so I'm trying to build his trust again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanty Posted July 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 You just pushed him to far. While you were away he was in a stressful situation with too much happening which obviously pushed him over his threshold. Too much, too fast, too soon. It does happen, been there myself with my reactive one. Have you read controlled unleashed? For instance at his agility class you may need just to teach him to relax on a mat and watch. Reward him for being relaxed. You should always be working him under threshold and over time raise the bar as he adjusts. Is controlled unleashed a book or is it on a website? I'd like to take a look... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Stupid is as stupid does. Believe it or not we've all pushed our dogs to far. Not only that but other thungs as well. I had Jin well under control until one day when a snarky dog jumped out of a crowed and and attacked Abby on the other lkeash. Since then Jin's be a reactive dog. Training will get rid of it but it does take time. Summer reading assignment is 2 books both by Patricia McDonnell. "The other end of the leash" an incredible book on how we interact with dogs and why. The other is Feisty Fido or how to deal with dog aggression and reactivity. Edit and added I forgot. While Jin has a problem with other dogs./ It's not all of them. Only a small percentage. He loves kids and is a wonderfully friendly dog under normal circumstances. I just have to watch him when other dogs approach and see if he reaches the threshold or not. Of not he can meet the other dog. If not I have to hold and control him. Get his attention until the crisis is past. Try those books. It's all there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanty Posted July 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Stupid is as stupid does. Believe it or not we've all pushed our dogs to far. Not only that but other thungs as well. I had Jin well under control until one day when a snarky dog jumped out of a crowed and and attacked Abby on the other lkeash. Since then Jin's be a reactive dog. Training will get rid of it but it does take time. Summer reading assignment is 2 books both by Patricia McDonnell. "The other end of the leash" an incredible book on how we interact with dogs and why. The other is Feisty Fido or how to deal with dog aggression and reactivity. Thanks - I'll look them up at the library. EDIT: Truman is also not bad with all dogs. When we walk the dykes I judge his reaction to determine whether to avoid, introduce on leash or permit off leash. The sitter also said he was very good with small dogs which is likely due to regular exposure to my Pomeranian breeder friend who grooms him (funny, isn't it?) He is allowed to lay down or stand still while the puppies gather around him like chicks - but he's not allowed to play because he's too big. So he usually lays down to play with little dogs - so smart! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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