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As I am writing this I am shaking my head thinking, "What are we getting ourselves into". As with our previous posts about our BC Kaycee going into heat, we had a long discussion about the "possibility" of maybe breeding her once....The problem is neither of us have any experience with this. Now I have begun to do some reading through out the internet just as we had no idea about BC's before we got Kaycee. We also were involved in "visiting" Kaycee the day after she was born and every week there after. I am looking for any and all advice and whats involved in to process from beginning (stud, where do they breed, how long, do they keep our BC for a period of time etc etc.) to end (ABCA Registering the dogs etc). I am not doing this for any financial gain. While I understand there are plenty of BC's to adopt we would love to have a Son or Daughter from Kaycee and would be doing this strictly once and then probably having her fixed there after. Thanks everyone....

 

P.S.. Just wanted to add before I get ripped apart..... We are NOT breeding her on her first heat (now)... Sorry felt the need to add =)

 

PSS.... ******* Please see our reply a few posts down before replying *********

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If you have read the Welcome-Read This First thread, you probably wouldn't even need to ask this question. Be prepared for a lot of blunt answers and for hearing what you don't want to hear, which is that you have no business breeding your dog. You needn't worry about people ripping you apart for potentially breeding on a first heat; you'll get ripped for thinking of breeding her at all.

 

Here's the relevant part of the "Read This First" section, which is the breeding philosophy of this forum, in a nutshell:

 

For the good of the breed, border collies should be bred only for working ability. The border collie breed was created by farmers and shepherds who wanted to develop a dog which could help them manage their livestock. They bred only to produce good workers, and that singleness of purpose created the breed we love. Changing the way border collies are bred will change the breed itself. Therefore, breeding dogs who have not proven themselves as useful herding dogs, or breeding for appearance/color, or breeding for sports or for "good pets," or breeding for anything other than working ability (which includes the health and temperament necessary for working) is harmful to the breed.

 

Of course no one can stop you if you are determined to breed. But please consider what you'd be adding to the gene pool, that is, what your real reasons are for breeding: purely selfish--I want one just like my lovely pet--or does your dog have something valuable to add to the working gene pool. And before you consider breeding, perhaps you should go to Petfinder and type in "border collie" just for your area. Then check out the BC Rescue Boards and just count the numbers of border collies in need of homes. Maybe then you'll be willing to reconsider.

 

Breeding to obtain a son or daughter of your beloved pet is one of the worst reasons for breeding. First of all, that lovely pup won't be like its parent. Second, there's all those other pups to consider in the litter. Third, you got your dog from a breeder. You could find the near-genetic equivalent of a son or daughter by going back to the breeder and asking for a closely related pup (you could even get a sibling to your dog, just from a different litter).

 

You will find pretty much zero support for breeding your dog on this forum. I hope you will listen to people's reasons for why you shouldn't breed and do the right thing and spay her as soon as it's safe after she goes out of heat. Please don't become yet another backyard breeder producing dogs that may go on to add to the flood of border collies in rescue (those are the lucky ones, by the way) or shelters, being killed daily to make room for more poorly bred dogs. And before you argue that any pups you produce would go only to dear friends and people you trust, just consider the example you're setting for them. They will think it's okay to breed *their* dogs, and so on down the line--an endless stream of puppies, all the result of a ill-informed decision to breed your own dog. Consider where the pups, and the pups of those pups will end up. I don't care how close the friends or family members are that you place pups with, things will happen that are beyond your control. You're morally and ethically responsible for those puppies, though, so can you live with what happens to them in the future?

 

J.

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NO. NO. NO! Have you read the "Read this first" and familiarized yourself with the philosophy of this board with regards to breeding? If not, please do.

 

Border Collies should not be bred for anything but quality working ability (which does include suitable temperment, soundness, health, intelligence, biddability, and stock sense). To breed for any other reason is to do the breed a disservice and, as you seem to be aware, just produce more pups while many good dogs are languishing in shelters and awaiting euthanization.

 

Breeding your dog to get one of "her" pups won't ever guarantee you that you will get a pup like her (which I assume is your goal). Breeding your dog "just once" will not do a single thing beneficial for her but will expose her to all the risks of pregnancy and parturition - which should never be untaken without a very solid reason to breed a dog. Breeding your dog will produce puppies, all of which that are not under your control (all that you do not keep) have the potential to be bred, to be abused, to be lost or strayed, to be neglected - and to just help perpetuate the cycle of more dogs than there are responsible homes.

 

Be prepared to don your flame suit because this is a hot button topic on these boards where responsibility for the future of the breed and the care of the individual dog is taken very, very seriously. After you read the "Read this first", take the time to use the search function to read prior topics about this subject.

 

If I were you, I'd get rid of that idea (I hate to put it this way but the idea is all about you and what you want, and not about Kaycee's benefit or future) now. And I'm probably giving you a reply that is pretty moderate compared to many you may receive because people here are passionate about the breed and about responsible breeding - and breeding Kaycee would not be responsible.

 

I hope you rethink your idea, realize that your own hesitations (as expressed in your post) are the voice of reason and responsibility, and do the smart thing by avoiding pregnancy and having Kaycee spayed as soon as possible after her heat.

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I'm a little confused as to why you posted this question, as you've been here for a while. Surely you've read the sticky discussing the official board position on breeding?

 

Essentially, I don't think many here will agree that wanting a son or daughter of Kaycee is a good reason to breed your pet dog. You have as much as admitted that you know very little about the breed or stockwork. Working ability and usefulness should be the standard you breed to in border collies - this is what have made them the dogs that they are. Period.

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Ok after 3 posts -- I get the idea... We will definatly NOT breed her. It's early in the AM and I guess my inital hesitation was correct. Best I post this prior to getting burned at the stake. Thanks everyone....

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Good for you! It's easy to be tempted to do something you shouldn't do but when you realize it would be a mistake and decide to avoid making it, that's a good decision.

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I think the decision you have reached is a very wise one. But I want to add this as I think it's easy to see the cute cuddly side of puppies without realizing there there is potential for many, many problems to arise.

 

As I am writing this I am shaking my head thinking, "What are we getting ourselves into".

 

 

Maybe vet bills galour. Pregnancy and whelping is not always a walk in the park. Some dogs need emergency c-sections. Sometime you need to deal with deformed puppies. You may need to deal with your beloved family pet changing behavior as all those hormones take over. After whelping you may need to deal with mastitis, eclampsia, failure to let her milk down, and just plain neglect of the puppies.

 

I had a cat that had kittens once. Then she went in for an emergency c-section as a couple of kittens were dead inside of her. A day and a half later she went back because she was seizuring due in part to the stress of everything. With meds and antibiotics her seizures stopped, but not before she had weakend the tissue around where her stitches were. Her stitches split and she had to go back in for surgery to repair the damage. The 2 surviving kittens died along the way. I was very fortunate that my vet at the time was low cost (the whole thing cost about $200) and that my dad was willing to to to continue pursuing vet care(I was only 13 at the time) - even the vet said the cat probably wouldn't survive the second surgery and reccomended euthanasia.

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Now that I got that post out of the way before people show up to my house with pitch forks and torches...... We only had a flash of insanity that I know would have been mostly negitive, which is what I expected and hoped for to reassure myself that it wasn't a good idea. Thanks to those who did so without leaving a bloody mess behind...

 

I do have to make mention though that when we did do our own research on BC's for almost a full year... we started looking for a breeder. We contacted dozens across several states and the overwhelming answer was DENIED. We were looking for mostly a family type dog that could possibly get involved in either sports (flyball etc) or as I do fire/rescue for NJ was to possibly train her as a search and rescue. The search and rescue avenue and sports avenues are still being strongly explored, but as some of you know Kaycee had some down time with her foot. She is back to 100 % and we are back into her regular training schedule now.

 

Back on topic -- we searched and searched but everyone denied us because we didn't have BC experience and she wasn't going to be a "working Dog". There are families out there that are responsible and are willing to train and do what it takes to fulfill the needs of this breed. Now granted this is a very small number of people like this (as we are), but we do take exceptional care of her and she is extreamly happy being a "family pet" just as many of you have your dogs as "pets" and are not working dogs. We got lucky with one breeder who granted is probably a "backyard" breeder, but a very responsible one that had an entire application process, a scheduled meeting with her dogs and us, vet calls etc and still checks in with us now and then to see how she is doing as well as a contract that if we were unable to care for her any longer she would be returned to the breeder. This I know does not make a good "dog owner" but we were forwarned about the breed and the possibly issues etc. The public does not need to go through this with almost any other breed. All my dogs I have ever had were all rescues, this was our first pup. You can imagine how wonderful it was to raise Kaycee and that feeling was what prompted this post as a "POSSIBILITY" not a definate and we have come to the realization that everyone here is right and we will continue with our original plans to have her spayed. All I am trying to get across is we had to be given a chance and that we came out on top. This is probably a 10% amongst the average public without a BC, but there are some of us out there that deserve a chance without being riddiculed or outright refused before even getting to know us. This is what makes me upset about the whole process we went through to get Kaycee.

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Two thoughts:

1. Many owners of working dogs, myself included, have stated in past breeding threads that we would rather a pup go to an excellent pet home than a mediocre or poor working home (mediocre and poor being defined by standard of care and training), so it's possible that you just ran up against the wrong breeders, and you shouldn't let your experience color your attitude about working dog breeders in general (assuming the people who turned you down were working dog breeders, since "dozens across several states" doesn't quite add up with what I know about working breeders) since many working breeders are in fact willing to sell well-bred pups into non-working homes; and

 

2. I don't think it would be a bad thing if breeders were more discriminating across all breeds as you described. No, it wouldn't make getting a pup easy for the average person, but it might just make the average person stop and consider why they really want a puppy and if they're truly prepared to deal with all the issues surrounding raising a puppy. Most folks do more research into buying a car or a large household appliance than they do into a specific breed of puppy they might want.

 

Having difficulty getting a puppy shouldn't be a "license" to become a BYB (to make it easier for the next person coming along who wants a puppy); instead it should be the norm for *all* puppies, and then perhaps we wouldn't as a society have such a huge issue with throw away pets (you know, once they get past the cute puppy stage, or in some cases simply when they get to the difficult puppy stage).

 

I'm not trying to pick on you here, but if you think about it, wouldn't it make more sense for all dogs, and especially those that are homeless**, if being able to get a puppy weren't quite so easy? **By this I mean that we already have a huge population of homeless dogs, with thousands (hundreds of thousands?) being killed each day to make room for more coming in. If pups weren't so readily available in the first place, then the flow of homeless dogs going into shelters and rescues should decrease.... I know that's Pie-in-the-sky thinking, but it sure would be nice....

 

J.

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The public does not need to go through this with almost any other breed.

 

If they did, shelters and rescues would not be nearly as full.

 

I really don't think it's that hard to aquire a BC. I got two - one just by making a phone call and one through a casual contact that knew a little bit about me. It took a little more leg work than going down to the shelter and picking out a lab mix. But once you get into the BC world a bit, it's not that difficult. I'm guessing that if you had attened a couple of trials you would have gotten to know a few people, they would have gotten to know you and you would have ended up with some breeder references. Good breeders are much more likely to open up to you/sell you a pup once they personaly know a little bit about you.

 

If you wanted another high energy working breed, you probably would have gone through about the same process (field lab or golden, cattle dog, shepherd or malinois).

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Don't I wish it were harder to get a pup! We see 9000 dogs annually at the shelter I work at and about 1/3-1/2 of those are puppies under 7 months of age. We just started a transport program with a shelter in MI to transport puppies north several times/month since they are low on pups and we certainly don't have a shortage here. :rolleyes:

 

I do applaud your decision to not breed - it's a very wise one for the vast majority of people with dogs, but unfortunately there are many who do not come to that conclusion and contribute to the problem. Thanks for listening to the advice you got here!

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Lots of good points were made so I won't rehash them.

 

You seemed to change your mind very quickly. Let me just say I hope you have really decided not to breed your dog and not just saying so to get everyone off your back.

 

Next as far as making it "easier" to get a dog. Personally when I'm looking for a dog or puppy if the breeder does not give me the 3rd degree and ask me as many questions as I ask them I run not walk run away. I refuse to buy a dog or puppy from anyone that has so little regard for the breed (any breed) and their dogs that they will sell to anyone that shows up with money.

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You seemed to change your mind very quickly. Let me just say I hope you have really decided not to breed your dog and not just saying so to get everyone off your back.

I actually interpreted the OP as being relieved to have his hesitations confirmed. Sometimes what we are looking for is an external brake when our internal one feels like it might be weakening! :rolleyes:

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