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I won't bore you with the details again of Dave's behavior but he did something today that is either new or I had not payed much attention to before. I had Dave out alone, he is usually with my other two dogs. A lady approached Dave he has seen before. Dave went into full pet me mode with the tail going and he was quite excited. He showed no signs of fear or alarm. She pet Dave for a while and he was right into it. When she turned to walk away however Dave began jumping and barking at her very aggressively. In the second situation a gentleman came to the window of my truck, he had noticed Dave and wanted to ask about him. Dave had never seen this man before nor had I. Again Dave went into pet me mode. He stuck his head out the rear window and the man pet him for quite some time while we talked. As soon as he turned to walk away Dave went into full aggression mode jumping and barking like he was about to attack. In both cases there was no sign that Dave was anything but a super friendly puppy looking for attention and sucking it up big time. At no time until these people began to walk away did Dave show any signs of alarm or aggression. Nothing appeared to happen that would have provoked Dave. With some people and dogs and bikes etc. Dave can be aggressive right from the start and this I can understand and I have been dealing with. Some of you have read about my problems with Dave. I have taken advise from many board members and I have been researching how to handle this situation with Dave but what he did this morning has me stumped and a little worried. I would love to hear your thoughts or should I just start looking for a border collie clinic with padded walls.

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Not to sound like a broken record, but did I miss a post? Have you talked to a behaviorist? Why is Dave out in public at all unmuzzled? (You don't mention it, but I know from experience most people won't pet a muzzled dog--I get HORRID looks all the time over Pan's muzzle.) And if you don't want those looks, why are you letting people pet Dave? Also, just guessing, but this sounds almost like the temper tantrums Pan used to throw, when she didn't get what she wanted, and people here always said with this she needed to work on impulse control. But really it sounds like you should go to a behaviorist if at all possible, and if you haven't already, so a veterinary expert can observe the behavior and diagnose the problem. And man do you have my sympathy! You've been dealing with a lot of terrible stuff!

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This sounds similar to what we've been working on with Scooter for a while. He loves having company, but as soon as it looks like they're about to leave, he turns into a different dog. Begins pacing, circling and barking as they go out the door. Some have suggested this is herding instinct. Not sure what to call it except unacceptable. We've had success with telling him to go to "his spot" or removing him from the area before he reaches a high level of anxiety. We've never experienced this behavior anywhere but home however. My brother's Border Collie on the other hand is very protective of the vehicle, but sweet and gentle everywhere else. Watch closely to see what the trigger might be. I agree with the muzzle, for everyone's safety until you get this worked out.

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I have to echo Mary's comments. I seem to remember in the last thread about Dave's aggression a number of folks suggesting a basket-type muzzle and also suggestions regarding not taking Dave out in public until you've consulted with a behaviorist or at least done some serious desensitization work with him. By persisting in exposing him to people when you know he can be aggresssive, and apparently unpredictably so, you are setting him up for failure, and worse, you're setting him up to lose his life in the event that he takes the aggressive barking and lunging to the next level and bites someone. I don't understand why you continue to take him out and let people pet him when he has now shown you numerous times that he can't be trusted in such situations. From your previous posts, it's clear this isn't the first time Dave has acted friendly toward strangers and then struck out at them unprovoked. Will it take him biting someone before you finally take his aggression problems seriously and quit putting him in situations where trouble might arise? By then it could certainly be too late for Dave.

 

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but you're asking for advice, and you've been getting good advice in this situation, but ISTM you are persisting in ignoring that advice and then coming back here to ask for more advice. It sort of boggles the mind. I think Dave has made it perfectly clear that he is not comfortable around strangers, even if he does appear friendly at first. Why not listen to him (even if you don't want to listen to the folks giving you advice here)?

 

J.

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I agree with Julie and Mary that you should not be taking Dave out in public right now and definitely he should not be getting pets from strangers or people he has seen around but doesn't know. He can't handle it and every trip allows him to practice dangerous behaviors. It really sounds like you need help from a certified vet behaviorist ASAP and until you have consulted one, you need to keep Dave and the public safe. If he was my dog, I would not be letting anyone outside of family and people I know he is truly comfortable with near him, much less petting him. I wouldn't care how "pet me" he acts, he is not safe. We'd be spending lots of quality time at home until I had that consult and a plan to follow to rehab. Dave's luck is going to run out eventually and I know that is the last thing you want.

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Yep I agree, Dave would be holding down the couch till I got a handle on his issues if he were mine.

I can't remember how old is Dave and is he neutered? Not that that's the answer but sounds like he's trying to run the show, anyway he can. Like hey....pet me, pet me. When the attention stops, he tries to correct/control the situation with his outbursts.

You are really lucky that these people have been understanding and nothing's happened.

I know you've tried to analyze his past but I'd be worrying about his future for now.

 

My Raven was pretty bad when we first got her. She's grown in to a dog that I can trust in most situations, but I avoid the ones that she can't handle. That would be taking her out in public and expecting her to be a good friendly girl. It's just to much for her. I'd love for other people to enjoy the wonderful girl that she is, but that's not gonna happen so I don't feel bad for her, just keep her safe and comfortable.

Get some professioinal help or keep him home. I'm not big on muzzles but that means I don't take a dog out that might need one. Not I don't use one and take my chances.

 

Good luck, I know you love him and he's a angel for you, but in public he's not. Don't take it personal, just make the adjustments that you need.

Again, be careful or you're gonna find yourself with empty pockets and a broken heart.

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I'll avoid the whole "taking Dave into the public" issue (which has been addressed well by prior posters), and hazard a guess about the behavior described.

 

I hope someone corrects me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that this is not an unusual behavior in some dogs - they are fine with people that approach and take petting, but when a person leaves, they go ballistic, kind of like "look at me, I've scared them away, this works!". Not a good habit or behavior, and one that needs to be dealt with as I think it could lead to other, undesirable reactions to people.

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Don't take him out without a muzzle. Don't let anyone approach him or touch him. Get help from a qualified behaviorist. Read all of the Panmom threads.

 

I stated before that there is a vast middle ground between confining him to a kennel 24/7 or putting him down. You need expert help in finding and fine tuning that middle ground, not advice on a board. If you keep taking him out unmuzzled and keep letting people touch him, he will bite someone. You'll lose him, when a relatively inexpensive and easy managment solution is very easy.

 

There is nothing any one here on the BC Boards or anywhere else can do at this point. You've gotten all the wise advice and words of experience there are, and you keep putting Dave into situations he can't handle. Stop it.

 

Ruth

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When Cindy started that with me years ago whenever I had to go out and couldn't take her, I always told her 'I'll be back in a little while'. This quickly cured her of wanting to go for the car ride all the time, and barking at me for leaving. It still works. It even works for her little buddy, my daughter's Yorkie. Now they just sit there with long faces and don't try to herd me back in. The key was the wording. If I said 'I'll be right back', she guarded the door and wouldn't let me or anyone else out. When we have family here, I have to tell her the same thing when they go to leave. 'They'll be back in a little while', and she settles down. It sounds strange but that's how she is. She's smart enough to know what the words, or the sound of the words, mean.

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As others have said don't take him out in public if he cannot be trusted. I would also suggest working on training an off switch for the situations he inapropriately tries to control. Poke thinks he is the boss of everything, and we have been been working with him on this additional off switch for a while now with great success. He goes into situations where he wants to control and correct with the same type of go, go, go mind set that he has with frisbee, ball, and his herding lessons. Just like we taught him "all done," with the toys, it seems he needs a verbal cue to snap out of his self appointed managerial position. :rolleyes: With a lot of hard work and time we have gotten to the point where we can redirect Poke to focus on us, and then tell him to "let it go, buddy."

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I know how you are feeling. My beautiful BCX, Ru, has social issues. He went through his first family in 2 months and was hauled off to the Humane Society and then saved by my daughter - he was taken from his mother too early and given to us when he was only 4 months old. He is 6 years old now and we have finally solved these issues very simply: 'don't pet the brown dog - he's not friendly'. That usually stops people in their tracks. He looks like he would be okay to approach, but I know down inside, he doesn't like humans other than his family members - that includes 3 people. He will politely keep a distance, no barking or growling, in a sit/stay until we are finished our business with the stranger. I've learned from years with several breeds of dogs (spaniels, labs, border collies) that even if you think there is the smallest chance of a problem with a stranger, DON'T LET ANYONE PET YOUR DOG! Since we have made this a household rule, Ru is happy to walk amoung perfect strangers and enjoy a party or gathering because he isn't threatened by anyone who will reach for him or touch him. In all fairness, I must add that Ru was trained by a certified dog trainer at our home with me as his handler. This was not an easy once and done fix -- it took lots of time and practice to get him to where he is today. A good trainer can work these issues out with you and your dog. Best of luck!

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Thanks for your advice although a little less attitude would be helpful. We took Dave to our Vet and the only behavior expert in our area ( not certified ). Dave did not display any of his bad behavior although he did bark at another dog. She walked Dave around and he did the usual follow on the lead with his his tail wagging and looking for treats. He did his lie down and come and all the usual stuff. She was more of a talker than a listener so I am not so sure she understood or payed much attention to our sneak attack story but she seemed to have a plan. Dave needs to be trained and socialized. We should get him out more and used to people and surroundings, we should give him more exercise, perhaps take him to the dog park. We should have the Vet look at Dave and make sure he has all his shots but there could be something wrong with Dave and they can take tests. We should enroll Dave in one of her long term courses and we should not try to do this at home. There appears to be nothing we can do with Dave and it should be left to professionals. We should not let Dave work on stock because it gets him excited. In short there in nothing we can do except take Dave to courses although the subject of drugs came up. Well, I am not going this route and I was afraid I may get this kind of answer. Dave is expected to work stock and when he is properly trained he will work geese and I am not going to stop that. I am not going to medicate Dave and take him to stock. I am not going to subject Dave to a long term course with other dogs and I am not going to take him out and socialize him and put him into the fire. Dave is expected to work in public so I need to solve his behavior with people. I need to get Dave focused on a job in public. Either she did not know what to do with Dave, she would not say or she was more interested in making some money off Dave. She was sure not interested in having us involved. I am not going to subject Dave to a bunch of tests. His Vet has no reason to suspect a problem. Some of what she is suggesting may help Dave but we have no direction to go in and we are not working on solving the problem. We are simply putting Dave back to the beginning and hoping it works this time.

I am going to go this alone. I will do my work and my research and give Dave the best shot I can. I will continue Dave's stock work and training and that is something I can handle. I will take the best creative advice and run with it. This may be a little out of my league but I plan to get into the league and this may be the challenge I am looking for. I am looking forward to Dave being a happy, well adjusted and safe country / city dog. Thanks for your help, I will get back to you.

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Dave is expected to work in public so I need to solve his behavior with people.

 

DTrain, I admire your willingness to work with this dog. However, if he showed no aptitude for stock sense - would you insist that he work stock? He may simply not be a dog that can work successfully in public without causing stress to you and him and potential liability problems. Not all dogs succeed in all endeavors and environments. It may not be what you want to hear but stop and think about what is fair for him and a good business decision for you. That decision may be to let Dave work at home and use your other dog(s) or start a new pup for using for public work. I think that is certainly the best decision for the shortterm so you can eliminate the pressure on Dave and yourself to function in an environment where he is clearly not succeeding.

Good luck,

Lisa

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My dog Buddy is successful, despite his reactivity, in dealing with the world he lives in. He takes long walks off-leash, visits the flea market every Sunday (and follows his cerebral map to the dealers who keep dog treats), plays with dogs and humans he loves, lies down to study cats, takes treats oh-so-gently from toddlers. Even though I know that in the wrong situation, he would fly off the deep end and start a dangerous fight with a German Shepherd, he looks normal almost all the time. In fact, within the confines of his normal life, with management, people who don't know him will often say, "What a good dog he is!" I can't express how rewarding it's been helping him become the best dog he could be, getting compliments from strangers after knowing his origins. Sheesh, the other day, he allowed a couple of teenage boys to approach and give him treats. I never thought I'd live to see the day!

 

But could I make him be a seeing-eye dog? Or a search and rescue dog? Absolutely not. The chaos and stressors would destroy him.

 

Buddy is a great dog in a life that's been set up appropriately for him. If he had ended up in another life, he may have bitten someone out of fear, or darted into traffic to escape a fearful stimulus, or picked a fight with the wrong street dog and been killed. In fact, the wrong original life may have been what put him in the shelter where I adopted him: he may have been expected to be Owd Bob, when he's just Buddy.

 

Dave is what he is. He probably can improve and make great strides, but he may or may not be able to become the dog you need him to be for your work. He's already got a bite history, and continuing reactive behavior. Are you committed to caring for this dog, Dave - or do you need a specific (possibly non-Dave) dog to do the work you do?

 

Mary

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All humans have different likes and dislikes, things they excel at and things that they're just not interested in. We don't all look alike. We don't all eat the same food. Some are outgoing and some are content to be alone. Some people were meant to be super athletes or performers. Others are more suited to less active, but just as important and fulfilling activities. Every person is unique, as is every dog. As for Border Collies who don't herd sheep, if they've never been introduced to a sheep, they don't know what they're missing and I doubt they lie awake at night dreaming of sheep and "what might have been." As long as they're being loved and cared for, given a suitable outlet that fits their personality, I believe they can be happy and well adjusted, even as "just a pet."

 

ETA: Sorry, I meant for this to be posted on the "Why A Border Collie?" thread. Duh. It's early. :rolleyes:

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I'm sorry that all you managed to get out of all the concerned posts to this thread was "attitude." I rarely post to threads started by you because I've gotten the impression over and over again that you don't really want to take anyone's advice. What you take as attitude is really concerned folks not understanding why, when they've given sound advice before, you chose to ignore that advice, put Dave in inappropriate situations for him (despite advice to the contrary), and then come back here complaining that Dave has had yet another setback. It sounds to me that you don't really want any advice unless it agrees completely with whatever preconceived notions you already have. I hope for Dave's sake that you succeed, but I'm afraid it could end badly as well. Good luck.

 

J.

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I had a genetically shy dog (no aggression) who with lots of time, effort and patience on my part made great strides in what he was able to accomplish socially and in agility. But one of the things I had to remind myself repeatedly was that "he'll always be who he is." That meant that he was never truly "normal" though like Mary's dog, he could seem that way. And he still had very bad days where he acted so frightened and unsure people would comment how sad it was to see a dog that had been badly abused (he had not been -- he came to live with me at 7 weeks old). I couldn't predict those bad days, even after years of training, showing and bonding with closer with this dog than any of my others.

 

Most importantly, I had to go at his pace and not let my goals and hopes push him too fast or interfere with his progress. As Mary notes, not every dog is suitable for working in public. Putting aside your attachment and investment in Dave, you may come to see that geese work around the public ever or any time soon is not something that is in Dave's or your best interest.

 

I sincerely wish you and Dave only the best but I worry about the outcome with you determined to "go this alone" and "hoping it works this time." Good luck and please keep your mind and heart open to the many good options out there for dogs like Dave.

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This might be seen as attitude, but heck, I'll still try to help. I think you need to take the time and money and invest in a session with a *professional* not just some trainer that's local. Ideally you'd find a veterinary behaviorist who can actually give you solutions vs. obviously missing the mark like the local trainer has. I don't think I've ever heard any behavior specialist recommend not doing stockwork because it gets the dog too aroused, often I've heard the opposite. You DO need help, you've just not found the right match yet - please don't give up after just one visit with a trainer with limited credentials!

 

And between now and then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE muzzle your dog if you insist on taking him into public - I don't think he should be out there given his past history you've described here, but at least keep everyone safe if you go that route. You should look for a plastic basket muzzle that allows him to pant and drink to avoid heat related problems that "grooming" muzzles can create.

 

I would not be very forgiving if your dog was allowed to approach me, I was encouraged to pet him, and then I was bitten. You and your animal would be reported to animal control at the minimum - I know I'm not the only one who sees biting as an incredibly serious offense.

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DT,

 

I've stayed quiet on this one until now. If your going to go it alone, begin first by not expecting Dave to make all the changes. It is your duty to protect him both physically and mentally, if mentally he can not handle the pressures of being in close proximity of people under any given condition then you need to not put him there, it will put him in physical danger.

 

As far as the sneak attack, based on what you are describing I'm visualizing a temper tantrum simular to what happens when a person that is entertaining a strangers child tries to withdraw, the child will cling and may even blow a cork in efforts to get their new friend to stay with them. I would work with these situations with people that you know, that understand that you want to work through a training issue. Yes, this is a training issue or one that could be remedied with training. The training would either be to teach Dave that his place is next to you and not into other peoples business that way you don't have to worry about him snarking when people he has claimed try to leave, he won't be claiming people, he will be too busy doing his job, being with you. Or the training could consist of setting it up where you allow Dave to interact or be with the other people for a moment and before the people withdraw you withdraw Dave and bring him back with you and back to the place he should be in, after he understands then set it up where a friend gives him attention and then walks away, watch Dave, he should return to you, if he does not put him into the place he should be in.

 

It sounds like you are hoping that Dave will just come back to you when people leave, he don't want to, he wants the people to stay with him and gets ticked when they try to leave him. Possibly he succeeded in getting people to give him more attention with this antic when it was in low level aggression stage, maybe he thinks that a punishment is going to come when the people leave, he also could be lashing out at the pressure that the leash is applying to him, basically aggressively outbursting when he finds himself restrained. The why is the hard part and dwelling on the why is going to impede his progress. If you keep pushing Dave into these situations in hopes that he is going to just get it and change your quite possibly in for a result that will ultimately cost Dave the highest price.

 

You are setting Dave up in a pressure situation that he is not properly dealing with, he is using aggression (barking, growling, nipping) instead of releasing and coming back to you. Show him what he should do under pressure situations rather then submitting him to them in hopes that he is just going to figure it out on his own. How you do it is up to you, that is where it gets tricky, personally I would start at a great distance from other people and make sure that Dave understands his place, not restrained to your side with a leash, but with you mentally and physically because you taught him to be there, the leash is only there to honor leash laws or for emergency purposes.

 

I would be willing to bet money that someone that knows what they are looking for could find the root of the problem, and they would not have to wait for him to interact with other people to get it to manifest so that it could be dealt with, it can be dealt with between you and Dave, it's just a matter of setting up a high enough requirement.

 

Another way to think about it, when Dave is blowing up he is exhibiting a lack of self control, if he can't control himself whose job is it to show what he should be doing and to hold him to that requirement?

 

Deb

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You've told us what Dave does, your expectations for him and what you don't want to do, but it's unclear from your posts what you've done to work with Dave, other than take him to your vet and a "behaviorist." Can you please elaborate?

 

Kim

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I didn't perceive "attitude" in the previous posts, but "alarm" on your behalf that you put your dog in another situation that was extremely uncomfortable for him. I shudder to think of your liability should someone be bitten by your dog.

 

Before Jack's meeting with the veterinary behaviorist in December, I had to fill out page after page of extremely detailed questions about his start in life, our home life, his habits, etc. At our consultation, I did do some talking about my dog but most of the time (2 hours) was spent with this specialist explaining why my dog acts like he does and exactly how it has to be fixed. My regular vet had prescribed some medication, but the vet. behaviorist jacked up the dosage and explained why this was necessary. He pointed out many things that we (Jack's humans) unknowingly did that contributed to his separation anxiety. Please try to find a vet. behaviorist and have a consultation----this is their specialty and it was well worth the time and expense.

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We took Dave to our Vet and the only behavior expert in our area ( not certified ).

 

You have gotten a lot of great advice on this thread. There are things you can do even if you live in a remote area and dont have an access to a veterinary behaviorist. We at NEBCR often work with the Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic and have had a great results using the methods they recommend. I hope you find the info below helpful. Good luck.

 

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/behavior/clinical.shtml

 

PETFAX

If you don’t have time for a clinical appointment or don’t live near our

North Grafton, Mass., facility, Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic offers a

fax-based, remote consultation service. Dr. Moon-Fanelli provides a behavior

history form that allows you to describe your pet’s behavior problem in

detail. We also encourage you to videotape the problem behavior if possible.

You can mail or fax the behavior history form to our clinic. Within four to

five business days of receiving your form, we will send you a five to ten

page document with additional handouts describing the causes and reasons for

the behavior problem and a plan to solve it. We encourage you to share this

consultation response with your local veterinarian for assistance in

managing the behavior problem.

The fee for PETFAX is $250 and includes a six-month period for telephone

follow-up consultations. Please call Ronni Tinker (508-887-4640) for the

necessary forms to initiate the consult, or visit the

 

PETFAX website to download PETFAX forms.

Back to the Top

 

VETFAX

This is a veterinarian–to–veterinarian consultation service for animal

behavior problems. You and your referring veterinarian provide a written

account of the behavior problem via behavior history forms and mail or fax

this report to Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic. Dr. Dodman and his assistant

will fax or mail a three to six page consultation response to the referring

veterinarian within one week.

For more information, please call Pat Goodhall at 508-887-4678. Your charge

for this service will be determined by your local veterinarian.

Back to the Top

 

Telephone Consultation

Another consultation option is a direct telephone consult with Dr. Alice

Moon-Fanelli. The fee for a 30-minute telephone consult is $62 and a

60-minute telephone consult costs $125. The fee for a telephone consult does

NOT include follow-up phone calls or emails. You'll need to submit a

Behavioral History Form beforehand, which will be reviewed by Dr. Alice

Moon-Fanelli prior to your telephone consult. Informational handouts that

supplement the advice provided will be mailed to your home.

To schedule a telephone consult and get a Behavioral History Form, please

call Ronni Tinker at 508-887-4640. She will arrange for Dr. Alice

Moon-Fanelli to call you at a prearranged date and time.

Note: some behavior problems are not best addressed via a 30 or 60 minute

telephone consult. Whether your pet's behavior problem can be adequately

attended to in a 30 or 60 minute telephone consult will be determined after

we receive your pet's Behavioral History Form.

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I don't agree that it is a temper tantrum. From previous posts it sounds like the dog is fearful and stressed in public. I suspect he is being friendly to try to appease the scary strangers he is being forced to meet. Then, after they turn their backs and begin to move away, he gains confidence and lets his true feelings (leave me alone!) be known. This is a very common scenario in fear aggressive dogs. They are friendly to your face then try to bite when they feel they have gained the upper hand.

 

Talk to a real behaviorist, not a dog trainer who tries to claim they are one. Keep Dave out of situations that will stress him. Protect him from people (don't let them pet him, make eye contact or try to interact with him in any way). If you are unwilling to use a muzzle at least use a Gentle Leader. With a dog like Dave you need to be proactive and carefully manage EVERY situation.

 

This is not attitude, it's experience speaking.

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Oh... I meant to mention in my previous reply that it didn't sound like the trainer you consulted had a real understanding of what was going on here.

 

There are a LOT of trainers who've never seen this problem or that problem, and can't speak knowledgably about them. I did a lot of independent reading and research early on, and tried the chain-yanking thing recommended in a lot of training books. It became really clear that my dog was just getting angrier and more scared, rather than less. I was really lucky to stumble onto a trainer and behaviorist who actually had great experience working with dogs like mine, and who could coach me through the first few months. I shudder to think what would have happened if I had taken Buddy to a dominance-theory trainer, or someone who had only worked with happy, pushy dogs.

 

Mary

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