pansmom Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 To counteract the sad thread about Katz and the sheltie, I thought I'd give a quick update. Pan's been pretty obedient and sweet lately and staying more calm since I finally figured out last week how to truly ignore outbursts. Apparently for her it's really important not to make ANY EYE CONTACT AT ALL--after a few days of rolling my eyes and looking away anytime she even started to exhibit aggression, she has stopped growling for the most part, except like play growls when she sees other dogs--like a sound that seems to indicate frustration or a thwarted impulse to play. I know some people think this is crazy, but I find it so fascinating that with her, this is the ONLY thing that actually seems to reduce the frequency of the outbursts. You remember before we went to Dr. Haug, we tried sternly telling her no and then telling her to go to time out when she growled, and while she listened in the moment to both of these commands, they did not decrease the frequency of the outbursts. Dr. Haug says because of the attention, it is probably actually reinforcing the behavior. I think my husband is even on board now. She's been whining a lot more lately and the other night he tried, during dinner once, to look at her and tell her no while she whined. I put down my fork and said, "Um, you really shouldn't do that, just ignore it, don't even look at her, you're reinforcing it." But he kept telling her no. And it was funny because every time he said "No," she whined right back at him like it was some kind of a game, and then she started wagging her tail. It was kind of hilarious. (Needless to say, he has been ignoring her whines now, and lo and behold they are decreasing in frequency too.) For the past few days she has just been barking when she gets excited even with the resource guarding, for several days now there has been no growling, except for the previously mentioned kind of high pitched Hrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr sound that sounds to me like frustration when she sees other dogs while we're out on her walk -- and she easily goes into a "down" and "watch me" (which calms her down tremendously) when she's in that frame of mind so it's not bad at all. We've also been working on the resource guarding with very easy trading games, slowly increasing in difficulty. And we switched her from fluoxetine to carbamazepine (a drug that in humans treats OCD, epilepsy, bipolar, and "explosive aggression"). And I have made her a cozy for her long-wear muzzle, so it won't rub her face, so it's comfortable for her to wear all the time so we *can* safely ignore her outbursts. She doesn't fuss with it much anymore now. More later. But she's been basically a pleasant dog with very little conflict for almost a week now. We'll see if she continues to improve, without backsliding this time. Hope so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Very, very interesting. My dog was extremely reactive to eye contact early on. If a man were standing near me, he could turn Buddy's growling and barking on and off by simply staring at the dog, then looking away, then staring, then looking away. It's still a big trigger when Buddy is meeting new humans and dogs. He does not want to look at anyone early on, for any reason. Later, after he loves them, he'll stare for long extended minutes with no problem. Keep us posted! Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 I have been very impressed by your efforts to understand Pan, get professional assistance, and work with her. She is a lucky dog to have you and your husband for her family. Many people would not have put that kind of effort into a dog with her problems. Very best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pia Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Pan, Bless you for your story and your great spirit! It may have been possible that the drug you referred to would have helped my friends situation. But it takes work and dedication, not just a drug to see changes like you have experienced. It does my heart good to read this story today. It gives me hope in human kind to make a difference in an animals life, when the odds are very much against it. Thank you for sharing. I myself dread this weekend, I feel so bad for my noise reactive BC. I have drugs from vet to help take the edge off. I know I got plenty of company here so I wish all my BC friends & pups a safe 4th. I hope I don't see anymore sad stories on the board anytime soon, it was hard enough to write one. Oh and did I ever get to mention, Tucker & I have been competing in Agility Trials for 6 months now? My first time ever! I am so proud of my 'Boy', I never thought I could do this! He is awesome on the course he absolutely LOVES AGILITY. There, I ended on a BRIGHT note Pia To counteract the sad thread about Katz and the sheltie, I thought I'd give a quick update. Pan's been pretty obedient and sweet lately and staying more calm since I finally figured out last week how to truly ignore outbursts. Apparently for her it's really important not to make ANY EYE CONTACT AT ALL--after a few days of rolling my eyes and looking away anytime she even started to exhibit aggression, she has stopped growling for the most part, except like play growls when she sees other dogs--like a sound that seems to indicate frustration or a thwarted impulse to play. I know some people think this is crazy, but I find it so fascinating that with her, this is the ONLY thing that actually seems to reduce the frequency of the outbursts. You remember before we went to Dr. Haug, we tried sternly telling her no and then telling her to go to time out when she growled, and while she listened in the moment to both of these commands, they did not decrease the frequency of the outbursts. Dr. Haug says because of the attention, it is probably actually reinforcing the behavior. I think my husband is even on board now. She's been whining a lot more lately and the other night he tried, during dinner once, to look at her and tell her no while she whined. I put down my fork and said, "Um, you really shouldn't do that, just ignore it, don't even look at her, you're reinforcing it." But he kept telling her no. And it was funny because every time he said "No," she whined right back at him like it was some kind of a game, and then she started wagging her tail. It was kind of hilarious. (Needless to say, he has been ignoring her whines now, and lo and behold they are decreasing in frequency too.) For the past few days she has just been barking when she gets excited even with the resource guarding, for several days now there has been no growling, except for the previously mentioned kind of high pitched Hrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr sound that sounds to me like frustration when she sees other dogs while we're out on her walk -- and she easily goes into a "down" and "watch me" (which calms her down tremendously) when she's in that frame of mind so it's not bad at all. We've also been working on the resource guarding with very easy trading games, slowly increasing in difficulty. And we switched her from fluoxetine to carbamazepine (a drug that in humans treats OCD, epilepsy, bipolar, and "explosive aggression"). And I have made her a cozy for her long-wear muzzle, so it won't rub her face, so it's comfortable for her to wear all the time so we *can* safely ignore her outbursts. She doesn't fuss with it much anymore now. More later. But she's been basically a pleasant dog with very little conflict for almost a week now. We'll see if she continues to improve, without backsliding this time. Hope so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Ruth you look like you're going to be a very good handler. Eye contact with a BC can be tricky depending on the dog. Sometimes you need to do it and other times not. It's really a judgment call and doesn't always work. I can usually get Jin to settle with solid eye contact and get him to stop doing somethng by ignoring him as you have learned. Kudos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Great to hear you're figuring out what works for her! I hope the improvement continues! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted July 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Ruth you look like you're going to be a very good handler. Eye contact with a BC can be tricky depending on the dog. Sometimes you need to do it and other times not. It's really a judgment call and doesn't always work. I can usually get Jin to settle with solid eye contact and get him to stop doing somethng by ignoring him as you have learned. Kudos Yeah, that's how it works with Pan... It's not like Buddy (thank goodness!), where just looking at Pan will make her aggressive. It's looking at her when she's already aggressive or super worried that does it. Ignoring makes her calm down on her own (in the house it is my primary strategy because she *can* calm herself down here), and eye contact is reinforcement--depending on the situation that can be good or bad. If she is already aggressive reinforcement is bad. But if I get her into a down first, which she knows from the Relaxation Protocol means calm, then ask her to "watch me," it reinforces the calm. (She generally gets calm when she looks at me anyway... Dr. Haug noticed it during the appointment. So as long as we're not engaging in conflict when we make eye contact it usually helps.) It is really interesting. I hope her improvement continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Pan's Mom, Pan is lucky to have an owner so dedicated and patient. Again, I commend you for all you are doing for her! It really brings tears to my eyes. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 I am also glad you "stuck it out" with Pan and put in the extra effort. I know how difficult it is with a reactive dog. I am glad she is making progress as well. It will be slow, but as long as you keep seeing improvements, that is a good thing. Daisy is like Buddy and she's VERY sensitive to eye contact with strangers and other dogs. If she doesn't know you and you look her in the eyes, even for a second, it's like the biggest insult in the world. If a stranger isn't looking at her she has no problems approaching them for a sniff and return to me. Within a few minutes she'll love you forever. So I do believe that eye contact could potentially make a dog react more aggressively when they are already wound up. Keep up the good work and continue to post updates please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted July 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 OK, another update - I realized I haven't posted in weeks - in general, here's an update on all her problem behaviors since we got back from our trip... Never does she growl at me anymore for looming over her, since we went to completely no-contact training months ago. Tonight my husband woke her up from sleeping at my feet bending over her (slightly) and saying "you ok?" softly because he thought she looked dead and she did a low grade (almost halfhearted) growl and startled up, but it was really just she was startled because when she saw him and realized who had woken her she went back to sleep at my feet. Honestly it sucks that she growled (it's the first time she growled at one of us in a week) but this is a dog who has startled from sleep into a full fledged run and leap with a frenzied intensity, so you can see why it doesn't bug me so much. There were some growling and barking incidents when we were trying to figure out how to get her to let us put the muzzle on her, and use the Gentle Leader. Taking the muzzle on and off turned out to be impossible without using very dominance-based obedience, no matter how much we tried to desensitize her, I would have to glare at her and tell her "No, sit," and that would make her cower and make our relationship conflict-ridden for like a day afterward, so we ended up just leaving it on all the time. (That's why I made a cozy for it, so it wouldn't hurt her face.) She doesn't fuss with it much anymore, and she can do almost everything she could before with the long-wear greyhound muzzle on, even play fetch (with certain kinds of toys that allow gripping through the muzzle like a rope with threads hanging off). I treat her with peanut butter on a chopstick, or with soft treats that are easy to get to. I hated the muzzle at first when she was fussing with it and when it hurt her face and also because I got a bright red one like DANGER DANGER don't mess with my dog so people looked at me weird - but that was really the effect I wanted I guess because I was tired of neighborhood kids asking could they pet her - but now that she is ok with it and it doesn't hurt her, I love the muzzle, because I can totally ignore anything she does that is aggressive without using a tether so it allows her to sleep on my feet most of the time when we are indoors which she loves. We got to about Day Four on Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol and then she bombed out - but this was right after we upped her to 20 mg fluoxetene, after which we ended up taking her off because she got really RESTLESS and BARKY and GROWLY at that point. Since then we have been focusing just on resource guarding and impulse control training. Thankfully she still knows a "down" is calm-time. Eventually Dr. Haug is going to have us go back to the Protocol but for now we are working on other stuff. Her barking has decreased greatly in intensity and frequency (no more insane frenzied barking--this has been true for weeks, just with the ignoring enabled by tethering and/or muzzle). Her loose leash walking is good, she's doesn't pull on leash anymore, and 90% of the time we pass a trigger I can immediately calm her by getting her to "down" and "watch me" and those times I can't I can pull her away from it and THEN get her to "down" and "watch me" and go on our way. This was before the carbamazepine though, just with the ignoring and prozac. Basically what was key with this was teaching her the 100% reliable "sit" "down" "watch me" sequence and the reinforcing that with the release word "ok" with games in the house and using the principle of anytime she wanted to do something badly asking her to down and watch me first so she understood it was a polite way to ask. Lately sometimes if we pass a trigger she even goes into a down on her own and makes eye contact to request to leave the situation! She will also request to go check things out on our walks by going into a down and making eye contact. Making her sit at every threshold and make eye contact helped with her walking too--reinforcing polite behavior from the minute we walk to the door and through every threshold we pass on the way out of the yard calms her and makes her stay polite during the whole walk. She is somewhat less territorial when guests come over. Don't get me wrong she will still bark but it's not INSANE barking. (This is new--only since we started the carbamazepine is this starting to change... and it's still probably too early to tell, because we are working on aggression against us before we even touch aggression to strangers, but it seems promising so far, and we haven't even worked on it - she's just calmer on this drug). And the biggest thing that is improving is the resource guarding - the very first problem she ever manifested. One of the biggest things that she's been weird about for months is if you interrupt her while she's eating, which we don't do anymore during DINNERTIME, she eats in peace, but sometimes like she'll find a crumb on the floor or lately with the muzzle it takes her a minute to actually pin down and eat a treat (though she is getting better at this every day if the treats are round sometimes it's hard because they roll). So earlier today, I had thrown her a treat because I noticed she was being really good relaxing during some other previously reliable trigger, and she got on the ball about trying to pin the treat down with her paw and eat it, and apparently she had a lot of difficulty because 5 minutes later I looked over there and she was still on her tum looking at something and I didn't know what, so I asked her, whatcha got Pan, and peered to look, and then I realized it had rolled under the cabinet and she still hadn't worked the treat out to a place where she could eat it through the muzzle - and I was like oh crap I just interrupted her - weeks ago she would've growled and RUN at me over this, don't even think about taking my treat - but today all she did at first was just tense up, look at me, and move her head forward like she was going to bark without making a sound. It was the weirdest thing. Like a barking without the sound, just the body language that goes along with it but without opening her mouth. I wasn't even sure what I was watching at first so I kept looking at her and she did it again. And a third time - this over like twenty seconds, as I kept looking at her, until finally she did bark, but she didn't even get up or growl, it was just a warning bark, like, no I'm not done and I don't want to leave it, at which point I looked away. Not sure if I handled that right but I was so stunned when I realized she had actually controlled herself THREE TIMES from guarding it, and that when she did it was just a bark, laying still, on the ground. From now on I think I'm going to stop giving her rolly treats to avoid the situation. And maybe if she does the head motion thing again (her mouth didn't even open, it's weird, like a head jerk) I'll just leave her be, since I can recognize it now and it's definitely a more polite behavior replacing a previously vicious one. But I emailed Dr. Haug to ask her how to handle this and what she thought. Here's a picture of Pan's headgear so everyone can see what it is she's wearing and understand what I'm talking about when I say long-wear greyhound muzzle. The only thing that's missing from this picture is the cozy, added after the photo opp (I only took the pic because Dr. Haug wanted to see what I got her in order to best advise me on how to deliver treats through the grate--hence the peanut butter chopsticks). She looks like a circus animal, I know, but she really doesn't mind it - and it's only temporary of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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